TX school bans trans boy from playing "Oklahoma!" male lead, recasts with cisgender male student
https://www.salon.com/2023/11/09/texas-transgender-boy-oklahoma-play-anti-trans/Open linkView original on lemmy.world712
Comments188https://www.salon.com/2023/11/09/texas-transgender-boy-oklahoma-play-anti-trans/Open linkView original on lemmy.world
People playing genders they're not assigned at birth? In theater?!?
😮
Shakespeare never would have done this!
My first thought was "wait until they hear about Shakespeare". Literally every role filled by men, sometimes with the script explicitly calling for a man to play a female in full attire.
I'd also hate to see what policies they'll enact for their chorale program when performing historical hymns, where soprano parts specifically called for a male eunuch (castrato) to sing since females were not allowed to attend church services including choirs.
In my younger years I would have been absolutely vilified by these people. I'm probably vilified now, but I would've been then too. In all seriousness though, I cannot believe how far backwards we've gone in all this. I recognize that these thoughts and feelings have existed since before I was a kid but at least back then people seemed to have the decency to mind their own.
But to attack theatre of all things with this gender bullshit is attacking theatre itself. Crossdressing in theatre has existed for as long as theatre has existed. Cross-singing has existed for as long as singing has existed. If they're not teaching that stuff in their performing arts programs, they are denying young adults a quality education of the performing arts.
I think you're on to something there.
Trying to remember. Was it Taming of the Shrew where he mind fucks the audience with a male actor playing a male servant pretending to be a guy's wife in drag?
I wonder who the first woman to play Juliet was, and if Shakespeare ever met her.
We banned ShakesSpear and hung him/her in effigy
—Texas, probably
There is a slight difference when we're talking about trans people.
I'd wager they would allow a man to play a woman's role and vice versa. I think this is purely the anti-trans agenda taking hold.
Gotta say, their obsession with children’s genitalia really weirds me out.
Always comes down to that why care if the person is trans it's like those laws that forbid trans people from hrt all bullshit
Shakespeare would be mortified!
Fucking outrageous thankfully there's no traditional Christmas theatre shows that involve drag coming up
Rock Hudson has entered the room
Rock Hard Hudson
This happened in Sherman TX, a city most famous for the Lynching of George Hughes and subsequent riot in 1930, commonly known as the Sherman Riot.
I was tempted to say, "New century, new target of bigotry," but who am I kidding? They never gave up the old target of bigotry, either.
Some of the very first people that the Brownshirts went after was transpeople, even completely destroying an institute that was studying gender in the 30’s.
It's not like the people involved in that lynching felt bad about it or regretted it. And then they passed that hate to their children who passed it on to their own children. Those people were the grandparents and great-grandparents of these kids. Some of them are still alive and still preaching their hate to the kid. Some of them were alive long enough to do it before they died.
I'm happy to say that after a whole bunch of people showed up at the school board meeting to speak on Max's behalf the school board fully reinstated the original play and it's actors including Max and issued a formal apology. Special thanks to Grayson Pride for leading the effort. https://www.kxii.com/2023/11/14/sherman-isd-board-trustees-votes-reinstate-original-cast-version-oklahoma/
Thanks for the update!
No problem!
Nice! If you didn’t already, you should make a post about it
Thank you, I'll check and see if anyone has. I am diligently learning Lemmy.
Just want to point out that this statement makes it very clear that the original decision was reactionary discrimination against a minority in the first place.
Edit: The school board is now launching an investigation into the actions of the superintendent.
https://www.kxii.com/2023/11/14/sherman-isd-board-trustees-discuss-superintendent-position/
They need to investigate him. There are images circulating of him harassing parents who spoke ill of him about the situation. Another board member was shown to be protesting the local pride problem that was held, yelling at children and taunting them.
I haven't seen Oklahoma! but is there a part where the lead whips out their dong and waves it in front of the audience?
If not, who cares what's in their pants?
Also, prosthetic dongs are a thing, if you prefer to keep the original vision of Oklahoma! intact.
Wow, I guess the movie really deviated from the source material.
TIL that there’s a version of the Oklahoma! movie without exposed genitalia.
Also, did they verify the new lead is cis? I know a lot of people who have been in theater, there is a surprisingly large percent who aren't cis.
Name literally one actor or theatre person who is gay!?
Pshh. Can't be done.
Right? If you’re gonna try to get all the queer kids out of theater you’re gonna have a really hard time.
Has the school administration examined their penis yet?
You dont remember the classic line
“Ooooooooklamohma where my jizz coms seeping down my pants!”
I just wanted you to know, I actually giggled at this. Thank you for the laugh after a shitty weekend.
Texas, apparently...
They could have wrote that in. My junior high plays when I was in theatre were always just slightly different from the originals. 🤷🏻♂️
This sounds like the kind of thing a school would do under the Nazis. I wonder why that is.
What the fuck?
When I was in school, they literally didn't have enough students who were good enough to act, so there was so much gender bending. What garbage
During shakespeares time, they did not allow female actors, so all women on stage were played by men.
Shakespeare had men acting in skirts and dresses. Juliet of Romeo and Juliet, a 14 year old girl was played by a man. The kissing between the Capulet heiress and the Montague boy were two men smooching on stage.
Repugnicans are a plague on both your houses (of Parliament)!
@Potatos_are_not_friends @floofloof Um, Shakespeare.
These people are so fucking clueless. Men playing women in theatre is literally as old as theatre because women literally weren't allowed to.
These people would loose their mind if they ever saw a traditional British Christmas Pantomime
Also how that spits in the face of theatrical performances dating at least back to Shakespeare's time, if not further.
I never studied that stuff, but I did date a drama major back in the day.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3206851
It goes back to the ancient Greeks, at least.
They just don't care, as long as they are hurting someone, they are happy.
I bet if you asked him if he was a Bob's Burgers fan, he'd say yes and not be bothered at all that two of the lead female characters are played by men.
What specifically do you mean by "The LGBT lifestyle".
Hate to tell you this... I don't know if you have kids yet, but it absolutely does not matter how you raise them, if they're gay they're gay. The only thing you're teaching your children, if they are gay, is that their father probably will hate them if he finds out, and they better hide in the closet until they grow up and can escape you. Nothing else. LGBTQ is not the result of poor parenting, friend, it's genetic.
"I have yet to meet a single person from my culture who is LGBTQ+, so they must not exist. It can't possibly be that my culture has violently sigmatised their existence to the point that they don't feel safe coming out."
"This study can't definitively prove that sexual orientation has a genetic element, so it must not have any genetic component at all."
People literally get insurance in case their ram is gay. It's common and natural, and I'm pretty sure it isn't because those rams were indoctrinated.
There are gay people around you. They just haven't told you because you're a fucking bigot.
Your kids will put you in a home and you'll deserve it.
gosh if only there were a name for this phenomenon
Imagine thinking that forcing religion and heterosexual norms on a child will change their mind. Your religion does not dictate mine or my kids lives or lifestyles and don’t want that religious indoctrination forced on to us.
Some people (Ally’s, LGBTQIA+, Genderqueer individuals, etc…) just don’t accept that as an acceptable norm in their culture and don’t want their children to think it’s an acceptable lifestyle. As someone who has a plethora of religious friends and acquaintances and comes from one of those liberal cultures I simply mean that I respect them and their rights but I also want to raise my children to grow up being their authentic selfs and living their life.
"grow up being their authentic selfs"? so what age would you introduce them to homosexuality and gender theory? would you rather have them be thought that by their school or are you going to teach them that they can just choose their gender or sexuality?
The same age we introduce children to heterosexuality and gender theory. If the information taught is objectively truthful and backed up by scientific discovery then it makes no difference where it's learned because it will be factual.
At what age is it OK to let your kid read a book with a straight couple? At that age is the same age I'd teach for other option to be fine. There's nothing scary about homosexuality just as there isn't for heterosexuality. If them learning about heterosexual relationships doesn't hurt them, learning about homosexual relationships won't hurt them either.
Nah, nobody's got rights to treat others like shit for who they were born as.
It ain't right when Salafist muslims do it, it ain't right when black africans get told to do it by american evangelical missionaries, and it ain't right when you try to play cover for it by painting it as "just culture."
That behaviour is disgusting barbaric and undeserving of the respect afforded to true cultural differences like language and dress and (non harmful) traditions.
Talking in code doesn't work when we all have the cipher buddy.
"Our culture" (mostly western European) does not care if men play women (or vice-versa) in a play. If anything, like other have mentioned, in condones it. Stop acting like what you believe is the arbiter of culture. What you believe is nothing and meaningless, and a minority in our society.
Even if you were correct (which you absolutely are not), it wouldn't matter because we don't have to continue doing and believing the same things that were once believed. We can imagine and create a better world that let's people be what they want and be happy. We don't need you to agree to it, but it'd be better if you at least weren't hostile to people trying to live their lives and not bothering you.
Wise words.
@opp @Cethin
Schools don't experiment with kids' gender and sexuality. It's a lie to say they do.
So we should allow children to read books that are accepting of relationships at all, right? It's either wrong to do or it isn't. It shouldn't matter what gender the people are in the relationships. Either you're OK with some types of indoctrination or none.
(I'm of the opinion it isn't indoctrination to let people choose to read what they choose to read. It isn't indoctrination to admit people exist.)
No! Because if you don't stop they might want to!
Ah yes, not hateful or afraid of LGBTQ people you just don't want them to exist in public where you can see and talk about "exposure" like you're talking about a disease. Can't say I am fond of people talking about their own kids like chattel property where their parents decide every single interaction they have and shape their entire experience as though if they can just keep them "pure" of influence they will grow up to be good little carbon copies of their parents who will do exactly what they are told when they are adults. Seems like a good way to put a kid in therapy and for you to end up in a senior home to me.
You want to teach your kid that the gays will burn, fine, the kids still got to learn how to be at least tolerant and share the space in society and learning to get along is kindergarten stuff. Training up little terrors who will flip the fuck out if they ever see two men holding hands while buying IKEA furniture is doing society at large a disservice. Also these are fucking high schoolers, do you really think you need to wrap them in cotton wool and give them safety sissors? I am pretty sure they would light you on fire for trying.
LGBT isn’t a choice and covering their eyes won’t change their sexual orientation.
But, besides that point, how the fuck is it okay to insulate your kid from other cultures? That’s not healthy at all. Eating ramen wasn’t part of my family’s culture growing up, either, but I don’t go around trying to prevent children from learning about Japanese food.
You mean they do hate it but want to claim respectability points by gesturing to "muh kultor!"
Queer folks are in every culture because they literally just happen everywhere. It ain't up to some badnik lowdowns to decide it ain't in their culture because it sure is when they're kicking little johny on the street for not wanting to be called jessy anymore.
If I remember correctly back in the 18th century when only men were in plays they would also play women.
Actors and actresses could only play a role that was the same gender they were assigned at birth. Is just the next step, the Nazi's have been coming for us but they weren't you so you didn't stand up.
Over the last two years it was about fictional characters being played by people not of the characters race, and voice actors started losing work because they weren't the same race as the characters being voiced.
Before that it was wrong coloured fictional live action princesses.
Before that it was wrong coloured actors using disguises and make-up.
Before that it was black-face.
And everyone thought, I'm not racist maybe that should be wrong! And now you're racist, sexist, bigoted, for daring to have the admiration and respect to want to imitate 'those people'. This is part of the culture war, they want to make sure you stay within your lines, on your rung, and in your place.
FIRST THEY CAME
By Martin Niemöller
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me.
Yeah, I really don't think enough people realize this shit leads to "women can't wear pants," (would fit the statutes they pass to ban drag) which inevitably rolls back nearly all progress we've made in the past century regarding women in the workplace.
Or gay and trans people not being allowed to portray men and women, or keep straight people from portraying gay or trans people.
Except no. If they were consistent, then yeah sure. But there's nothing consistent about this ideology.
They wouldn't care about that. But more importantly, art containing gay or trans people is "degenerate," and would never be made in the first place (or if made, its creators would be killed).
Not quite sure if I'm reading you right, but I'd say there's a relevant difference between those examples, like recommending white people don't act in blackface, which are about respecting the cultural sensitivities of a traditionally oppressed group, and those, like prohibiting trans kids from acting roles of their own gender, which are about enhancing the oppression of a traditionally oppressed group.
You think a bigot cares about consistency? The only thing that is consistent is their ability to hate. If you think they won't go after their own who support the 'others' then I have a big lesson in history for you.
I feel like the easy solution is to identify as a cis male...
It is concerning (but unsurprising) how obsessed conservatives are with childrens genitals.
You can't choose to identify as the cis version of your opposite sex.
That's literally why we have the term cis, to differentiate from those who keep their assigned gender from those who do not.
Whoosh.
Maybe I don't know what a transgendered male is, but I thought it was someone who was born female then transitioned to male.
That would mean that identifying as a cis male does not make sense because cis is for people who keep their assigned gender at birth.
... holy crap they were being sarcastic...
I appreciate y'all on Lemmy. I almost went along with the Reddit programming of ruining jokes with /s but decided to test it.
It's needed sometimes, but definitely not here.
It’s called a joke, bud.
I feel awful for the involved kids, but look forward to what should be a slam dunk lawsuit.
I highly doubt any lawsuit of this nature would be anything close to a slam dunk, especially in Texas. I'm not finding any federal court cases that provide legal precedent on the topic, and Trump revoked the Obama administration guidance that trans people are protected under Title IX.
Looks like this could be the lawsuit to set the precedent.
With what supreme court? The Christofascist one that Trump and McConnell installed?
It would start in a state court and progress to the state level Supreme Court, I imagine. After that it goes to the federal SC. This would be preferable if they are seeking punitive damages.
Or I guess they could appeal it to the federal level. This is the route if you wanted to make a precedent for the entire US.
The cis kid who was cast to replace the trans kid should refuse on principle. the rest of the staff should, too.
Also conservatives can go fuck themselves.
The whole cast and backstage staff should pretend to go along with it until opening night, and then on opening night as the curtains open, they make a short statement about the injustice then walk off stage and go home.
Alternatively, the cast should covertly learn the role of an opposite gender cast member. Then on opening night, the cast members assume their opposite role and perform the whole play ignoring the costume inconsistencies.
I'm guessing the drama teacher will not allow any of that in order to keep their job.
Who says the kids have to tell the drama teacher?
I’m sure the drama teacher could spin that notoriety into some kind of career as a speaker or a teaching job in a more liberal area
As a former theater kid (and queer person) this is close to the right answer. The cis replacement should show up on day 1 and do the most over the top, flaming, fabulous Curly the world has ever seen.
You're right, it is a speck, so why the fuck is the school board singling out a child to punish over something completely insignificant? Do you think that child is going to grow up with a strong respect for authority, knowing that they will ruin their prospects over trivial bullshit?
A strong respect for bigoted authority???
No, not at all.
Enroll the Children in Boot Licking 101
Just because it doesn’t have an effect on you personally doesn’t mean it’s a speck. Other human beings exist and have feelings. Maybe stop being a narcissist.
What are you even trying to communicate here?
damn, i feel really bad for the kid
You'd think they would ban Oklahoma! in Texas entirely for daring to be about a state other than Texas.
Oklahoma is a vassal state to Texas, so it's fine.
As a reluctant Texan, this is the comment I came here to make.
The licensing organization should pull their approval.
This is absolutely against theatre traditions.
I was an angsty theatre kid. I would conspire to ruin every and any play for the remainder of my time at that school.
I literally did a monologue in drag and the school was fine with it. And this was the 90s. Things have gone backward, amazingly enough.
I went to school in West Texas (bigotry Central). In elementary school in the mid-80s, it was tradition that the 6th grade class always put on a performance of 'Guitarzan' for the annual talent show, and EVERY year it was tradition that Jane was played by a male student.
The main difference of course is that it was played as humorous. A joke with a ridiculous coconut bra.
So it's not that Texans have a problem with cross-dressing itself, but with taking seriously anyone who isn't ashamed of it.
Which to me seems to make it even worse. I hate this state.
Yes, that's a good point about the kind of progress that has been made. Minorities have always been tolerated in certain roles where they are perceived as non-threatening or entertaining, but progress is about allowing everyone to take part and be respected in the wider society.
I hate conservative so much. This is a non issue. If they are the best for the part let them play the part.
This is the shit where they go, "Why not let the best person get the part?" And then when they aren't chosen, they start losing their shit.
They do know that acting is pretending to be someone other than yourself, right?
If Jared Leto (🤮) can win an Oscar for portraying a trans woman despite not being trans, then there is absolutely no reason that a trans boy can't play the male lead of a school play. It's acting.
This is Texas we're talking about. You're attempting to apply logic where there is none.
Texas is the only state which doesn't have consistent power. Like, something no other state has a problem with.
Are you talking about Dallas buyers club or something else? I'm neither hip nor with it.
Yep, that's the one.
What’s most interesting to me is how Oklahoma! is an utterly poisonous production from the get-go. Every character is a self-absorbed jerk. Judd Fry asks a girl to a dance who only agrees as a ruse to punish the protagonist, who then literally tries to convince the dude to kill himself. The entire show is fucked up.
Any director who isn’t doing something subversive with the content has their head up their own ass. But hey, it’s Texas. 🙃
Eh. Just sounds like normal low-brow shit to me.
Low brow writers feel compelled to make things as clear and obvious as possible for their dim-witted audiences.
It's simple. It's straightforward. Everyone can understand what is going on without much thought.
I don't really think it's bad for that, just is what it is.
I think you mean it's old.
Before audiences had all the tropes figured out simple stories were amazing. All the contrivances we add today we only add to make bad movies seem more interesting or complicated.
It's why perfectly executed, simple stories are still compelling. But Oklahoma! certainly isn't one of them.
Edit: oh, and some people love the music
I do like the music, but the great thing about a lot of musicals is you can just listen to the music without needing to watch the show.
Nah, just because something is old doesn't mean it's simple.
characters in stories are allowed to be bad people
Its a school musical dude, calm down. If you want a subversive and thoughtful performance then don't go to a school production.
Oklahoma isn't "poisonous" its just weird. But, its fun for high school students to perform, and that's all it has to be. The purpose of a musical theater program in a school isn't to impress you with complex well written narratives, its to provide the students with an experience they wouldn't get otherwise.
They should play one of the female lead characters, but as male.
transphobia and an adult abusing his position of power to hurt a kid, two berserk buttons in one headline
Since the school is so up in arms about their production of Oklahoma, they should switch gears and do a production of Peter Pan. You know, where the lead is a young boy traditionally played by a female actor.
Or any Shakespeare where all of the characters are traditionally played by men.
Unfortunately these people are morons, pointing out their hypocrisy just makes them hate two things not like two things.
This is going to help with the School Shootings and Child Poverty and Pastors Raping Children!
I was sipping my coffee and looking out the window listening to the song birds, and then I worried about a trans kid in a school play, now I don't have to worry thanks for taking care of that. What is next.....men dressing up as women to play in Shakespearian plays??
They should change it to Seven Brides for Seven Brothers but do it in furry.
I would sponsor a fur suit if this happened.
Good one. I literally snort-laughed and attracted everyone's attention in the restaurant where I'm eating
Well this will fix the various social crises in that country for sure.
I was a tech theater kid and if this bull shit happened I would absolutely sabotage every show.
What? I don't get it
'TX' is an abbreviation of 'Texas'. 'Cis' is an abbreviation of the word 'cisgender'. Cisgender is a person who identifies with the sex that was registered for them at birth.
Yep. Like I'm a cis guy. I was assigned to male at birth, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that.
Other people are trans, or intersex, or non-binary. Biology is messy and we've got lots of variety.
Note: I might be missing something, because I'm not super familiar with all of it. I just wanted to add a little more info. I think it also helps for cisgender people to talk about this stuff too, to help normalize it. So, I chimed in.
Good breakdown, there's also gender fluid, which I believe means the gender you feel most comfortable being identified as can change. There are also neuter and newly invented pronouns, which defy the binary that many of us grew up learning about.
There's also a tremendous amount of variety within each label, even cis. Like I'm cis male also, but even between the two us we probably have different feelings about what it means to be essentially male
https://www.shermanisd.net/Domain/518
You do realize that these aren't the same people, right? They have like polar opposite beliefs on the subject.
Anyway, this kid was "banned" from playing the role, they didn't lose the audition.
Their point isn't about this outcry, it's about the reaction to the outcry.
Their anology is, if it's wrong for a cis person to play a trans character then it's also wrong for a trans person to play a cis character. They're trying to criticize leftist hypocrisy.
Now, I think it was a minority of pro-trans people that criticize a cis person playing a trans character. But I guess their criticism of that minority is fair.
Not only did they not lose the audition, they won the audition and then had it taken away from them. And therein lies the hate. It's not a "no", it's a "yes but go fuck yourself".
Same website, but still you are right that banning someone from performing based on anything outside their performance is outrageous.
So your suggestion is that the consistent view would to only allow trans kids to play trans roles? So a trans boy (assigned female at birth), who is literally indistinguishable from her male peers, is just shit out of luck? And trans girls are going to have to wait til their (obviously very open) school decides to do Rocky Horror Picture Show?
Fuck off and let kids be kids. Weird fuckers obsessed with children's' genitals.
Their point is it's hypocritical to say a cis person can't play a trans role.
I know what their point was.
Then why are you acting like they think a trans person can't play a cis role?
Honestly, as long as trans women aren't played by cis dudes that's an improvement over the past century.
Poont is, I don't really care who plays who, I'm okay with a trans woman being played by a cis dude, and a cis dude being played by a trans woman, it should not matter as long as their acting is good.
What you are missing is a century plus of the thumb on the scale (much longer if you go back to Shakespeare where only men could play women). The world doesn't suddenly become a complete meritocracy overnight (if ever), and striving for equal representation in the arts is very important.
Just look at how children of color have been inspired since Disney decided to start making protagonists that look like them and have similar backgrounds.
No actor of any gender now is lacking skill because of Shakespeare...
I agree, but a key takeaway is to also ensure that trans actors aren't discriminated against for any role so that they receive a fair chance.
Why can't they be? Your issue is when it's mocking trans women, but anyone could play the role and then mock trans women.
Are you aware that trans women are not physiologically the same as cis men? (If you weren't, now you are.)
Now do you understand how casting a cis man in the role of a trans woman will emphasize masculine features of the character, and that it plays into a narrative that trans women are men? (if you weren't, now you are.)
Everything I've seen has been based on brain difference trends. Not anything near indicating every trans woman is physiologically different from a cis man. (If they were you could easily identify trans babies for example.)
This is what I assumed was your concern, which honestly I think is shallow. You view it as transphobic to portray "non-passing" trans person (not to mention that a cis man could still pass) but, doesn't that "erase"(I don't agree that not depicting something erases it, but many believe it does) the experiences of non-passing trans women?
I literally have tits.
Okay and? Assuming that's you saying you're trans. Again, not all trans people are passing, take hormones, or corrective surgery. + There are plenty of non-permanent alternatives that a cis person could use. One of my best friends wears breast forms for example.
Historically, trans woman characters have been played by men.
" bUt NoT AlL"
fuck off. The majority of trans women are physiologically different from men; the majority of actors who have played trans women are men. That's fucked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Danish_Girl_(film)
As long as they don't go all Little Britain on it, I don't see it as a problem.
Okay, so, addendum: if the story is set in a time or place where the character wouldn't have access to hormones, then it's fine.
There's also a case to be made that if you have sufficient fuckery with CGI, you could make a story during an ongoing medical transition.
What I'm talking about is throwing a wig and some powder on some lantern jawed dude and calling it a day.
For example https://www.salon.com/2018/07/18/do-not-let-scarlett-johansson-dropping-out-kill-hollywoods-first-trans-studio-film-opinion_partner/
Rofl, I saw what you put there and it was hilariously incompetent.
yes thats why i deleted it
They didn’t want a tenor. What can they say?
I'm not American, but I'm in one of the many countries whose political narrative is shaped by the global political and cultural haegemon.
This specific story is of course irrelevant, but the broader indication that a significant portion of their population is eager to vote in a barely masked group of genocidal fascists, who have spent a couple of decades consolidating power seems globally relevant to me.
So you're cis I take it?
No, I'm normal. I'm also not a removed, although I am black.
Even if we engage in your transphobic rhetoric for a minute, that’s just not how theater works. People can be cast for different genders and have been for a loooong time
Don’t be transphobic and I won’t call you transphobic. Deal?
Wow, I didn't know Oklahoma had scenes with full nudity. Oh it doesn't? Then what part of this requires that the actor be born with male genitals?