It's almost like the real reason they are against aid for Ukraine is that they just parrot whatever their media outlets put out, and they put out being against aid for Ukraine because they want Russia to win and they want lower taxes and reduced regulation for themselves. It's almost like conservatives are really fucking gullible so long as you pretend you're on their side and point at somebody for them to blame.
The weirdest part to me is how “support the troops” is always a priority for most in the group opposing Ukrainian support. In fact, military support is usually so critical that they can set aside many of their primary targets of small government and fiscal responsibility.
I get that this isn’t the “our” troops they usually chant about, but it easily could be, especially if Russia continues its aggressive action. It doesn’t seem that it’s that hard to understand that if you’re willing to give the US military nearly a trillion dollars, it isn’t a bad idea to give support to a country actively fighting against this threat.
I guess it really does just come down to people convinced that Russia is somehow not a threat to the US, even though the leaders of “our troops” feel differently.
I'm not particularly concerned about Russia militarily threatening the US, but a strong and emboldened Russia putting pressure on Europe is not favorable for us. Eastern Europe generally speaking has less money and power, and therefore with have trouble defending against Russia. As those nations fall, Russia gains land and resources, which makes them more of a threat to Western Europe. Even at a near stalemate in Ukraine, resources are flowing from us and our allies, bottlenecking supply chain, production, logistics, etc. This leads to challenges in receiving resources, and the price is higher if we can even get shit. If you stop thinking right there, I guess I can see how people might oppose aiding Ukraine. But people who think things through realize that Western Europe in direct conflict with a stronger Russia will only make those exact issues even worse. And decent people don't even need to realize and understand that because the moral implications of indifference to the massive amount of dead civilians is plenty of reason to be on board. But even a sociopath should be able to understand the concept of "a stitch in time saves nine."
Sure, but the American government's entire point is to collect American taxes and provide benefits for Americans. To minimize monetary cost and maximize benefit to American lives is exactly what it should be doing.
The best reason there is, to have something to dream for. We see it in tons of our literature, look at how popular Star Trek is. It's not the crazy sci-fi stories that had people coming back, it was the world the audience wanted to live in. I wouldn't stomp on someone's dream like that. Especially when it is widely impossible, like who cares? It's their dream.
It's shortsighted to think that global communism is achievable within a human lifespan just as it is to assume that system won't be as vulnerable to corruption as current systems are. However that's beside the point, why advocate for something so widely impossible; because maybe it gives people hope that things may get better. If it was possible I'd definitely take more interest cause I don't think it'll work out how a lot of people who advocate for global communism think it will, but it's not possible.
Because politics actually matter, and for every person LARPIng about trying to make star trek a reality, is one less person working towards achievable goals making an actual difference in our actual systems. If all of the commies stopped preparing for the revolution and started voting and being proactive in their local party politics, they'd probably be surprised how much they could get done.
It does though. The democracies are functional, people vote, and the most votes choose the government. You obviously wouldn't want to run as the stateless global communism party, because you would get zero votes, because no one wants that system. And my shit is your shit. Unless you're prepared for societal collapse, you will want to work in the system. And frankly, the power vacuum arriving from this revolution will be filled by the right wing. They are armed, trained and ready to go.
It’s only impossible because people like you refuse to see it’s possibility. If enough people see it’s possibility. It becomes not only possible, but inevitable.
You would have to overcome the combined political and military might of every country in the world to enact that system. How about you work on getting basic healthcare to people first. That actually might happen in your lifetime.
Because every effort devoted to unobtainable utopias is effort detracted from being politically effective in the current system and erodes the legitimacy of the left wing. And besides, most communists are hoping for revolution, and not actually helping people.
The war is cheap in all terms (expect Ukrainian's). I believe most of the dollar numbers you see includes equipment value when they were going to be scrapped anyway. The accountants have to give it a fair dollar value, but in practical terms it's zero.
Oh man, maybe if there was some agreeement between Russia and Ukraine that avoided war, it could even be negotiated in a third country, maybe in Minsk? That could have been a great way to avoid war, too bad nothing like that happened. Imagine if NATO even broke such treaty? Would be too far fetched even Call of Duty haha
Come on now, you know the left panels would have said something about tax breaks for "job creators." You only wish they fumbled on their absurd message.
Pretty sure nobody is ‘adding more’ anywhere. We’ve been running on “continuing resolutions” for years. That means we continue to keep taxes at the same rates and spending allocations at the same rates, until we all can get together and agree on something better.
--
How to deal with a deficit? Make a budget.
How to make a budget? Get the House to pass one that the Senate will also pass and the President will sign.
How to get the House to pass a budget? Have the Speaker call a vote on it.
How to have the Speaker call a vote on it? Have a Speaker.
The problem isn't the spending as much as it is the idiotic tax cuts. We have the lowest taxes among western nations, we're experiencing record corporate profits and yet Republicans continue to insist we need to cut taxes. When in power the deficit goes higher than Democrat administration's and yet they cut taxes on the wealthy.
Republicans have no sense of fiscal responsibility and the only time they "support" it is when talking about cutting social programs, or in this case, when it helps Russia. They never support fiscal responsibility that includes increasing taxes, even if those increases would only impact the ultra wealthy that wouldn't suffer in the slightest.
This meme is such a dumbass lib take. A broken clock... Just because Republicans came to the conclusion that the war should end for the wrong reasons doesn't mean that the conclusion is wrong. We should all be pushing for negotiations and an end to the bloodshed. You dronies have become absolutely insufferable. If you're so pro-war, then why don't you volunteer and head to the frontline? Slava my anus!
You're talking about the war that Putin just said Russia never started, right? That war? The one that Putin has refused negotiations to stop multiple times?
I just want to make sure you're commenting on the same war the rest of the world is talking about.
Why should Russia settle for anything less than an end to the cleansing of ethnic Russians in Ukraine? They tried to negotiate an end to this, but the US admitted that the agreement was just to buy time in order to arm Ukraine.
Ukraine can ask for a quadrillion dollars in compensation, but it doesn't mean that it's going to happen. Russia is completely in control of this conflict and if the bloodshed is going to end, the Ukrainian state needs a fucking reality check in order to come to terms with the fact they they're going to need to make some concessions.
What would you call banning pro Russian political parties from running in elections, banning the use of the Russian language in schools and state affairs? What would you call it when a paramilitary of neonazis shells the villages, towns, and cities of a specific ethnic group who declared independence because they saw their rights being stripped away? If you believe any of this to be okay, then you might be, no, you are a fascist.
And yet, Russia has invaded another sovereign state. You are suggesting that there should be no response to that, that Russian soldiers should be left alone to do whatever they want within the borders of Ukraine.
I hope someone breaks into your house with a gun and starts threatening you with it, just to give you the opportunity to follow your principles and not call the police.
Seriously, go home Russian propaganda. You're not even good at it.
Are you daft? I support people defending their sovereign nation against invasion, and defending themselves against being killed by invaders.
When the aforementioned gun-toting invader breaks into your house, what is your response? Shrug your shoulders and leave, just give up your house and possessions therein? Where will you live? What will you eat?
You know, if someone is trying to kill you, you don't have to let them. You're allowed to take any necessary actions to defend yourself, up to and including killing them.
In this metaphor, Russia is trying to "kill" (take over) Ukraine. Everyone including me would love it if they stopped, because war is in fact bad, but as long as they don't, Ukraine is acting in self defense, and thus supporting them is morally justified.
You would have a point if they'd both been pointlessly agitating against each other for ages. But in cases where both sides are not morally equal, arguing that they are runs cover for those in the wrong. That's what you're doing.
So you think Russia should win and be able to do whatever they want to the Ukrainian civilians in the future? Especially those who not meekly accept this? Resulting in bloody crackdowns just as they do to their own citizens?
And then of course in a few years they just go and invade the next country like Moldavia and you then again think everyone should just stop fighting, resulting in Russia to win again?
That would be the result of you naive approach to Russia's continuing aggressive imperialistic expansion!
Well, I do know for a fact that conservatives are (a) less educated, and (b) MRIs show diminished anterior cingulate cortex and enlarged amygdalas, which translates to lacking pattern recognition and dissonance while being hypersensitive to fear and disgust, so...
Can't expect much logic from that starting point...
They only think in binary choices. Us versus them. They want the false dichotomy because it’s easier. The thought that both sides are bad can’t even enter the conversation.
They don't look the same from ground level. Hence the fighting. The Ukranians would prefer not to be genocided, but Russia seems dead set on exterminating them. You know with all the Nazi style mass graves they've been making.
Also that's some serious victim blaming mentality you're peddling there. "Well if you hadn't put up a fight your rapist wouldn't have hit you. Why resist?"
Why is it so difficult for you to believe that some people might value their own lives over nationalism or the wishes of the ruling elite class? Y'all are so bloodthirsty that you would criticize any Ukranian that dare to try to live instead of wholeheartedly volunteering to be thrown into a meat grinder.
It's never been about the money.
The Republicans and their grifters want Putin to win. It's just that simple.
And they want more tax cuts (until barely anything can be funded).
I don't even think it's that complicated it's just they are against literally anything the Democrats or the nebulous "liberals"/ left want.
The left support Ukraine?
Well that means it's bad! Boo Ukraine!
It looks to me like this war is pretty cheap on both American lives, and on the American taxpayers' pocketbook.
It's almost like the real reason they are against aid for Ukraine is that they just parrot whatever their media outlets put out, and they put out being against aid for Ukraine because they want Russia to win and they want lower taxes and reduced regulation for themselves. It's almost like conservatives are really fucking gullible so long as you pretend you're on their side and point at somebody for them to blame.
The weirdest part to me is how “support the troops” is always a priority for most in the group opposing Ukrainian support. In fact, military support is usually so critical that they can set aside many of their primary targets of small government and fiscal responsibility.
I get that this isn’t the “our” troops they usually chant about, but it easily could be, especially if Russia continues its aggressive action. It doesn’t seem that it’s that hard to understand that if you’re willing to give the US military nearly a trillion dollars, it isn’t a bad idea to give support to a country actively fighting against this threat.
I guess it really does just come down to people convinced that Russia is somehow not a threat to the US, even though the leaders of “our troops” feel differently.
https://news.usni.org/2021/08/18/russia-is-top-military-threat-to-u-s-homeland-air-force-general-says
I'm not particularly concerned about Russia militarily threatening the US, but a strong and emboldened Russia putting pressure on Europe is not favorable for us. Eastern Europe generally speaking has less money and power, and therefore with have trouble defending against Russia. As those nations fall, Russia gains land and resources, which makes them more of a threat to Western Europe. Even at a near stalemate in Ukraine, resources are flowing from us and our allies, bottlenecking supply chain, production, logistics, etc. This leads to challenges in receiving resources, and the price is higher if we can even get shit. If you stop thinking right there, I guess I can see how people might oppose aiding Ukraine. But people who think things through realize that Western Europe in direct conflict with a stronger Russia will only make those exact issues even worse. And decent people don't even need to realize and understand that because the moral implications of indifference to the massive amount of dead civilians is plenty of reason to be on board. But even a sociopath should be able to understand the concept of "a stitch in time saves nine."
"Well clearly I can't be held responsible for my life's problems, it must be the fault of disenfranchised minorities."
And pretty profitable for the military complex which finally is used for a good cause. Didn't these republicans receive their yearly lobby cheque?
Must've bounced, I guess. Ammo isn't exactly cheap to make.
"The war is cheap in terms of American lives" is a right wing, nationalist sentiment. "American" lives dont have any more value than any other lives.
Sure, but the American government's entire point is to collect American taxes and provide benefits for Americans. To minimize monetary cost and maximize benefit to American lives is exactly what it should be doing.
Wait, are you telling me that nations are oriented around nationalism?
This is why I'm for stateless global communism
What's the point in advocating for such a wildly impossible system.
The best reason there is, to have something to dream for. We see it in tons of our literature, look at how popular Star Trek is. It's not the crazy sci-fi stories that had people coming back, it was the world the audience wanted to live in. I wouldn't stomp on someone's dream like that. Especially when it is widely impossible, like who cares? It's their dream.
It's shortsighted to think that global communism is achievable within a human lifespan just as it is to assume that system won't be as vulnerable to corruption as current systems are. However that's beside the point, why advocate for something so widely impossible; because maybe it gives people hope that things may get better. If it was possible I'd definitely take more interest cause I don't think it'll work out how a lot of people who advocate for global communism think it will, but it's not possible.
Because politics actually matter, and for every person LARPIng about trying to make star trek a reality, is one less person working towards achievable goals making an actual difference in our actual systems. If all of the commies stopped preparing for the revolution and started voting and being proactive in their local party politics, they'd probably be surprised how much they could get done.
It does though. The democracies are functional, people vote, and the most votes choose the government. You obviously wouldn't want to run as the stateless global communism party, because you would get zero votes, because no one wants that system. And my shit is your shit. Unless you're prepared for societal collapse, you will want to work in the system. And frankly, the power vacuum arriving from this revolution will be filled by the right wing. They are armed, trained and ready to go.
It’s only impossible because people like you refuse to see it’s possibility. If enough people see it’s possibility. It becomes not only possible, but inevitable.
You would have to overcome the combined political and military might of every country in the world to enact that system. How about you work on getting basic healthcare to people first. That actually might happen in your lifetime.
? Por que no los dos?
Because every effort devoted to unobtainable utopias is effort detracted from being politically effective in the current system and erodes the legitimacy of the left wing. And besides, most communists are hoping for revolution, and not actually helping people.
He shares toothbrushes, you can't reason with him.
That's not how global politics work. Your idealism is extreme.
"Capitalism seems inescapable, so to did the divine rights of kings" -Le Guin
Your current crop of Republicans don't really care about the US or American values - they want to live in a Margret Attwood novel.
“It’s not rape if it’s for America”
The war is cheap in all terms (expect Ukrainian's). I believe most of the dollar numbers you see includes equipment value when they were going to be scrapped anyway. The accountants have to give it a fair dollar value, but in practical terms it's zero.
Any Republican against giving aid to Ukraine is essentially a Russian asset.
You spelled ass-hat wrong
It's the same picture
Crazy idea, how about we have a few years where we aren't involved in some war?
Wouldn't it be nice if all these tyrants like Putin would just stay in their own homes...?
If only it were that simple to look the other way from your neighbor getting attacked and raped.
As if such persons ever stop after their first successful house...
Oh man, maybe if there was some agreeement between Russia and Ukraine that avoided war, it could even be negotiated in a third country, maybe in Minsk? That could have been a great way to avoid war, too bad nothing like that happened. Imagine if NATO even broke such treaty? Would be too far fetched even Call of Duty haha
I think Hungary would be a better choice. Or were you going for a variety in places for Ukrainian and Russian agreements?
Europe can intervene then
Kindly explain how this is whataboutism.
Bonus points if the Korean War also ends
Come on now, you know the left panels would have said something about tax breaks for "job creators." You only wish they fumbled on their absurd message.
Alternative is we just print another 80billion while simultaneously trying to curb inflation. Good plan!
What a fucked up meme, do you warmonger much?
We just added 250 billion this week to the National Debt. How about just reduce spending and not add more elsewhere?
Pretty sure nobody is ‘adding more’ anywhere. We’ve been running on “continuing resolutions” for years. That means we continue to keep taxes at the same rates and spending allocations at the same rates, until we all can get together and agree on something better.
--
How to deal with a deficit? Make a budget.
How to make a budget? Get the House to pass one that the Senate will also pass and the President will sign.
How to get the House to pass a budget? Have the Speaker call a vote on it.
How to have the Speaker call a vote on it? Have a Speaker.
How to have a Speaker…?
Yes, but the requires having mature adults in congress.
Money is fake, dummy.
The problem isn't the spending as much as it is the idiotic tax cuts. We have the lowest taxes among western nations, we're experiencing record corporate profits and yet Republicans continue to insist we need to cut taxes. When in power the deficit goes higher than Democrat administration's and yet they cut taxes on the wealthy.
Republicans have no sense of fiscal responsibility and the only time they "support" it is when talking about cutting social programs, or in this case, when it helps Russia. They never support fiscal responsibility that includes increasing taxes, even if those increases would only impact the ultra wealthy that wouldn't suffer in the slightest.
This meme is such a dumbass lib take. A broken clock... Just because Republicans came to the conclusion that the war should end for the wrong reasons doesn't mean that the conclusion is wrong. We should all be pushing for negotiations and an end to the bloodshed. You dronies have become absolutely insufferable. If you're so pro-war, then why don't you volunteer and head to the frontline? Slava my anus!
You're talking about the war that Putin just said Russia never started, right? That war? The one that Putin has refused negotiations to stop multiple times?
I just want to make sure you're commenting on the same war the rest of the world is talking about.
Why should Ukraine ask for anything less than the full withdraw of Russian forces from inside their borders?
Why should Russia settle for anything less than an end to the cleansing of ethnic Russians in Ukraine? They tried to negotiate an end to this, but the US admitted that the agreement was just to buy time in order to arm Ukraine.
Ukraine can ask for a quadrillion dollars in compensation, but it doesn't mean that it's going to happen. Russia is completely in control of this conflict and if the bloodshed is going to end, the Ukrainian state needs a fucking reality check in order to come to terms with the fact they they're going to need to make some concessions.
There it is, the full Russian propaganda
There it is, the full American propaganda.
You haven't answered any of my questions. I wonder why that is 🤔
Because you're asking stupid ass questions that lead down your own rabbit hole and no one wants to go down there but you.
Because you're asking for people to explain things that you made up
Because now you're just making things up. There is no evidence of Ukrainian led ethnic cleansing.
What would you call banning pro Russian political parties from running in elections, banning the use of the Russian language in schools and state affairs? What would you call it when a paramilitary of neonazis shells the villages, towns, and cities of a specific ethnic group who declared independence because they saw their rights being stripped away? If you believe any of this to be okay, then you might be, no, you are a fascist.
Says the conservative.
I haven't made up my mind on which is worse.
Tankies seem smarter but I'm put off by the praise for Russia/China and their dear leaders.
Conservatives are fucking assholes.
Thank you for not being a sociopathic war monger.
That's right america, go help people kill eachother already!!!
Russia’s welcome to leave any time.
NATO is welcome to dissolve anytime. The Cold War is over.
They're defending from an invasion that Russia could stop whenever they want.
No, just the ones invading.
Do you regularly try to win arguments by putting words in people's mouth? How is that working for you?
Just the ones supporting Putin & to be honest, no reason to limit that to just Russians.
Or they could go home lol
All Russians in Ukraine? Yes, that's usually the answer how to defend yourself against an unjust invasion.
Heck Ukraine is doing even better and provides very good resources to guide Russian soldiers how to surrender.
Just the ones murdering children in Ukraine. So all of the Russians invading the sovereign country ofUkraine.
Go home, Russian propaganda.
Yes absolutely I don't support people dying so I must be a russian supporter.
People are dying because of Russia. As soon as Russia goes home with you, people stop dying.
War should not be an option. People are dying because two idiots won't give up. No country should support either side.
Naivety shouldn't be an option either, yet here you are.
And yet, Russia has invaded another sovereign state. You are suggesting that there should be no response to that, that Russian soldiers should be left alone to do whatever they want within the borders of Ukraine.
I hope someone breaks into your house with a gun and starts threatening you with it, just to give you the opportunity to follow your principles and not call the police.
Seriously, go home Russian propaganda. You're not even good at it.
So you do support people dying? That's insane. I will never understand people like you.
So you're in favor of Ukraine just laying down and letting Russia do whatever they want?
Are you daft? I support people defending their sovereign nation against invasion, and defending themselves against being killed by invaders.
When the aforementioned gun-toting invader breaks into your house, what is your response? Shrug your shoulders and leave, just give up your house and possessions therein? Where will you live? What will you eat?
Most boring troll Ive seen in a while
I very much support people dying. Imagine our resource crunch if they didn't!
You're right, we should nuke Moscow and be done with it.
You know, if someone is trying to kill you, you don't have to let them. You're allowed to take any necessary actions to defend yourself, up to and including killing them.
In this metaphor, Russia is trying to "kill" (take over) Ukraine. Everyone including me would love it if they stopped, because war is in fact bad, but as long as they don't, Ukraine is acting in self defense, and thus supporting them is morally justified.
You would have a point if they'd both been pointlessly agitating against each other for ages. But in cases where both sides are not morally equal, arguing that they are runs cover for those in the wrong. That's what you're doing.
So you think Russia should win and be able to do whatever they want to the Ukrainian civilians in the future? Especially those who not meekly accept this? Resulting in bloody crackdowns just as they do to their own citizens?
And then of course in a few years they just go and invade the next country like Moldavia and you then again think everyone should just stop fighting, resulting in Russia to win again?
That would be the result of you naive approach to Russia's continuing aggressive imperialistic expansion!
Obviously not. I'm saying this is not the right option.
Right, you're a supporter of killing Ukranians got it
Well, I do know for a fact that conservatives are (a) less educated, and (b) MRIs show diminished anterior cingulate cortex and enlarged amygdalas, which translates to lacking pattern recognition and dissonance while being hypersensitive to fear and disgust, so...
Can't expect much logic from that starting point...
That's neat conjecture and botherism and all, but I'm citing facts. You're just speculating.
When did I say that?
They only think in binary choices. Us versus them. They want the false dichotomy because it’s easier. The thought that both sides are bad can’t even enter the conversation.
The whole idea of refusing to cede land seems so insane to me. Russian and Ukranian soil look the same from 6 feet under.
Stop making sense. It hurts my narrative.
They don't look the same from ground level. Hence the fighting. The Ukranians would prefer not to be genocided, but Russia seems dead set on exterminating them. You know with all the Nazi style mass graves they've been making.
Also that's some serious victim blaming mentality you're peddling there. "Well if you hadn't put up a fight your rapist wouldn't have hit you. Why resist?"
Why is it so difficult for you to believe that some people might value their own lives over nationalism or the wishes of the ruling elite class? Y'all are so bloodthirsty that you would criticize any Ukranian that dare to try to live instead of wholeheartedly volunteering to be thrown into a meat grinder.