Большой террор, The Great Purge, where Stalin murdered most of the revolutionaries who still had any influence and actually intended to make the USSR communist instead of Authoritarian with a red coat of paint.
The ideological struggle that led to the Bolshevik civil war was not one of "authoritarianism" vs. "communism," it was a war between Stalin's centrist faction, which had the broadest support within the Bolsheviks at large, as well as Trotsky's "left-opposition," which distrusted the peasantry and felt that socialism was impossible without a revolution in western Europe. What changes do you believe those found guilty in the Moscow Trials and purge in general wished to enact that would have made the USSR "communist?"
Trotsky was kind of on to something, no? Yes, we can all agree that in the short term direct transition to real communism would have been a bridge too far to accomplish in a single generation, especially going from a largely pre-industrial Russia directly to a socialist society. People broadly lack the political will and understanding of how bad capitalism can get until they live under it. That said, there were more effective ways to actually move toward real socialism rather than an iron grip that gradually broke itself with its inefficiency. Unfortunately Stalin and his centrists were exactly the kind of довбойо́би to think they could strong-arm the process. In doing so he ended up undermining the whole project. I honestly do not know that the men murdered in the purge would have had a better answer. But they certainly understood the question a lot better than those holding the "trials."
I disagree, frankly. Trotsky was, most charitably, someone who genuinely believed that constructing socialism was a doomed effort in the USSR, and that the peasantry would not end up allying with the proletariat. With this reading of Trotsky, he was an active sabateur of the socialist project helping organize very real and legitimate Fifth Column elements terrorizing the Soviet administration and public at large, out of a belief that this was necessary to implement socialism.
The problem is that Trotsky's "permanent revolution" is wrong. The peasantry became fully aligned with the proletariat throughout the early 1930s, just before the purges. Stalin's faction took the correct course of action, focusing on building up heavy industry to prepare for a coming resumption of World War. Communism must be global, and cannot be achieved in one country. However, the transition to communism globally must be made by socialist countries.
The Soviet Union was genuinely socialist. Social ownership was the principal aspect of the economy, and the working class did run the state and direct the social surplus. The Soviet Union was actually very efficient up until the Gorbachev era, it wasn't Stalin that set the seeds for downfall but Khrushchev. The public by and large supported and loved Stalin until several years after Khrushchev's secret speech, and Khrushchev's reforms turned a blind eye to black markets forming a capitalist class that was effectively able to form a cohesive bloc. China has capitalists, but it integrates them into their system so as to control them and limit them. The later soviets did not, and this grew ideological withering within the CPSU.
To return to the purges, the assassination of Kirov by the Fifth Column elements prompted response. Regardless of the legitimacy of the trials, the fact of the matter is that there was a Bolshevik Civil War, so to speak. Even if we assume that all sides of it had good intentions, or even if we assume Stalin had bad intentions, it was still the more popularly supported and democratic decision to purge the party of the actual, real threat the Fifth Column presented, which is why Stalin was still so supported by the public until well after his death.
The idea that the Soviet Union was governed by an iron grip is a misconception. There were weaknesses in the Soviet democratic processes, and crisis after crisis effectively limited the extent to which democracy could effectively function. However, I intensely disagree with Trotsky's suicidal plans, and I believe that the CPSU made the correct decision to reject such plans, and were forced to respond to real internal sabotage that stood to collapse the entire soviet project.
You're directly contradicting yourself in the first paragraph, and your statements on Trotsky's beliefs are far removed from anything we actually know about the man.
I will have to agree to disagree with you, because defending the path not taken can only be done entirely in hypotheticals and theory for which there is no concrete evidence, that said I firmly disagree with the characterization of the peasantry being fully committed to the socialist enterprise. They were cowed by fear, which is a weak substitute at best, which is why I find the bandwagon argument of "well it was popular" uncompelling. Stalin was a Tsar in all but name and he ruled like it. I have enough family who survived it to know who and what he was. Calling what came out of that period "socialist" is technically true, but socialism is a broad enough term to encompass many different systems, not all of which lead to good outcomes. Petty, punitive, and bigoted administration at many levels made a mockery of any claims of true solidarity among the people.
If you want to truly defend socialist principles, quit trying to sane-wash mistakes and wallpaper over the truth. The USSR was never a good example, let alone an ideal case of socialism in action. Pretending the lessons of the past didn't happen instead of taking the opportunity to learn from them and do better is the most American thing I can think of. We do not win by stealing from the capitalist playbook.
No, the peasantry were not "cowed by fear," this is ahistorical. Here's an excerpt from This Soviet World, written by journalist Anna Louise Strong in 1936:
Among the many flaming words which poured from the hearts of two hundred combined-harvester operators meeting in December 1935 in Moscow with the heads of Party and government, amid jubilation over present success and promises to make the future even more victorious, there was one poignant phrase of contrast with the past.
“We sons and daughters of peasants—had there been no Soviet power, no Party of Lenin-Stalin, our lot would have been slavery to kulaks, or dawnless poverty in the mire of small peasant farming.”
These words illumine with a piercing ray the tremendous changes that have taken place in the Soviet rural districts in a span of years so brief that the past still remains vivid in the minds of men not yet thirty years old. “When I worked as a fourteen-year-old farmhand under the tsar,” said the combine operator Kapusta, “I never saw the leaders of the government, never saw even the boss for whom I worked. . . . I never expected from life such happiness, such joy.”
Five years ago Kapusta was an unskilled worker. But not Kapusta alone; so were they all. What else but unskilled workers were there on the backward individual farms of peasant Russia, where fifteen years ago the tractor was stoned as a “devil machine?” Even five years ago, who among Russian peasants had ever seen a combine-harvester? Today not only are millions of peasants acquainted by sight with the most modern farm machinery, but hundreds of thousands have mastered its operation and make a more continuous use of it than is possible on the private farms of America, which are too small to utilize profitably this modern machine. The combine is already a machine too good for capitalism. The American average harvesting record per combine is 578 acres, while the Soviet average secured in 1935 was 643. The champion operators who met in Moscow spurned this average. They had made records of a thousand, two thousand and even twenty-five hundred acres for the harvest season, and were swearing a solemn oath to train before next harvest many more operators like themselves.
The time of this great advance has been so short that they can all look back as if to yesterday and recall the days of ignorance and poverty, when they slaved for wealthier farmers or wasted nine-tenths of their labor trudging from strip to strip of their medieval peasant fields. Today the very word “peasant” is passing from their vocabulary. They speak of themselves as “kolhozniks,” members of the collective economy, joint owners and users of the large-scale farm on which they work. They know quite well that if there had been no collectivization of farming, their slavery and darkness would have continued. For if modern machines had come to the Russian soil under capitalist conditions, a minority of successful farmers would have gained the means of production and risen to a brief wealth on the impoverishment of millions—brief until they in turn were robbed by the big banks of the cities, as farmers are under capitalism.
The soviet model freed the peasantry from a slave-like experience under the Kulak farming. Stalin was no Tsar either, he requested to resign on half a dozen confirmed occasions, only to be rejected. The painting of Stalin as someone worse than, say, Churchill is an invention that came after his death. In his time, he was not feared but loved. An excellent history on the legend of Stalin and how it changed over time is given by Italian philosopher Domenico Losurdo.
Nobody ever said the Soviet Union was ideal. What it was, is enormously progressive and a dramatic uplifting for working people. There were many problems with it, but the good outweighed the bad. Learning from the past requires understanding the good and the actual bad, not just accepting capitalist framing of socialist states as correct.
A curated history from the mouths of the elites does not make good data. We can all see how the scions of the plutocrats in the US massage the truth and tell us we have never had it so good while we all know full well this is not the life we are actually living. This is not new, in fact it is as old a practice as history itself and the written word. We find fragments of the truth hidden in every nation from ancient Sumeria to Rome, to our present day. I'll put my faith in the stories of the small people who lived to tell the tale, thank you. It may not make for as compelling reading, but there's a truth there you won't find in official statements and official narratives.
Anna Louise Strong was an American journalist, not an "elite." She traveled the USSR, US, and PRC, reporting on the ground. Trusting only anecdotes that conform to your own beliefs, rather than historical record and journalism, doesn't seem to be very effective historiography.
The point, I believe, is that Stalin was never the caricature of a sole madman with no ability to be opposed throughout his tenure as head of state. The CIA report directly challenges that idea and instead suggests viewing Stalin as the "captain of a team," one with large influence, sure, but one man in a web of collective leadership. The response to Kirov's assassination, the event that directly led to the purges in the late 1930s, was not the decision of a single madman but instead a collective response to the perceived threat of Fifth Column-style elements, from what could be described as a "Bolshevik Civil War."
After the death of Lenin, the Bolsheviks did not cleanly break for Stalin. However, this does not mean that they split into "good" and "bad," but instead into those who coalesced around Stalin's "centrist" Marxist-Leninist views, the Trotskyist "left-opposition" views, and the Bukharinist "right-opposition" views. This struggle was not merely one of open debate, but one that led directly to sabotage, armed resistance, and struggle. The broad majority of the Bolsheviks, and the population as a whole, supported Stalin and his position that industrialization was of prime importance. The opposition, therefore, was often an underground movement.
Bringing this to the assassination of Stalin's close friend and ally Kirov, who was the only person other than the head of Stalin's security detail he allowed into the sauna with him, the party found it necessary to investigate how and why a top Bolshevik was killed. This led directly to the Moscow Trials, which independent observers believed to be legitimate, but Trotsky and his followers alleged were rigged and used purely for political gain for Stalin.
No matter what truly happened, sham trial or no, there are two critical facts:
The broad population and the CPSU supported the purges, this was not an invention of Stalin.
The "Bolshevik Civil War" was a real power struggle that the CPSU could not simply ignore.
The caricature of Stalin as it exists in common western depiction is one of a twin devil with Hitler, an evil force of nature that all feared. This was largely something that happened after the death of Stalin, after Khrushchev's not-so-secret "secret speech," where Khrushchev advanced his own career by attacking Stalin (and, to be clear, the speech has had numerous inconsistencies and fabrications identified since the opening of the Soviet archives).
Stalin was by no means a saint, he made mistakes that we should not simply accept. However, the "black legend" of Stalin, as Italian philosopher Domenico Losurdo calls it in his book on Stalin's legend in particular, is one that serves a definite political aim: to delegitimize socialism, and depict anyone who supports the same systems that saw doubling of life expectancies in post-revolutionary Russia, that saw full employment and free healthcare and education, that saw a semi-feudal society reach space in only half a century, as essentially devils worshipping cultists of the twin-devil Stalin, as "Stalinists," or "Tankies."
The ghost of Stalin's caricature is used to delegitimize Cuba, Vietnam, China, etc, and to delegitimize domestic support for these existing socialist countries. His popular image was transformed from someone who got on well with FDR and saw respect even in the western world, getting the honorary title of native American chief from indigenous tribes, to one of a twin evil with Hitler, for political aims at delegitimizing socialism. This isn't to say, again, that he was perfect, merely that there is a difference between Stalin the man, and Stalin the legend.
And it also shows that despite the myth being useful, the people at the CIA whose job it was to analyze the USSR knew Stalin was *not" an absolute dictator.
But you'd have to actually read it to know that so I can see how that might be hard. Maybe we can get an AI animated slopachter to read it as a short form video and then you'll be able to follow along?
21 replies
Essentially the perfect example of a snake eating its own tail
Большой террор, The Great Purge, where Stalin murdered most of the revolutionaries who still had any influence and actually intended to make the USSR communist instead of Authoritarian with a red coat of paint.
The ideological struggle that led to the Bolshevik civil war was not one of "authoritarianism" vs. "communism," it was a war between Stalin's centrist faction, which had the broadest support within the Bolsheviks at large, as well as Trotsky's "left-opposition," which distrusted the peasantry and felt that socialism was impossible without a revolution in western Europe. What changes do you believe those found guilty in the Moscow Trials and purge in general wished to enact that would have made the USSR "communist?"
Trotsky was kind of on to something, no? Yes, we can all agree that in the short term direct transition to real communism would have been a bridge too far to accomplish in a single generation, especially going from a largely pre-industrial Russia directly to a socialist society. People broadly lack the political will and understanding of how bad capitalism can get until they live under it. That said, there were more effective ways to actually move toward real socialism rather than an iron grip that gradually broke itself with its inefficiency. Unfortunately Stalin and his centrists were exactly the kind of довбойо́би to think they could strong-arm the process. In doing so he ended up undermining the whole project. I honestly do not know that the men murdered in the purge would have had a better answer. But they certainly understood the question a lot better than those holding the "trials."
I disagree, frankly. Trotsky was, most charitably, someone who genuinely believed that constructing socialism was a doomed effort in the USSR, and that the peasantry would not end up allying with the proletariat. With this reading of Trotsky, he was an active sabateur of the socialist project helping organize very real and legitimate Fifth Column elements terrorizing the Soviet administration and public at large, out of a belief that this was necessary to implement socialism.
The problem is that Trotsky's "permanent revolution" is wrong. The peasantry became fully aligned with the proletariat throughout the early 1930s, just before the purges. Stalin's faction took the correct course of action, focusing on building up heavy industry to prepare for a coming resumption of World War. Communism must be global, and cannot be achieved in one country. However, the transition to communism globally must be made by socialist countries.
The Soviet Union was genuinely socialist. Social ownership was the principal aspect of the economy, and the working class did run the state and direct the social surplus. The Soviet Union was actually very efficient up until the Gorbachev era, it wasn't Stalin that set the seeds for downfall but Khrushchev. The public by and large supported and loved Stalin until several years after Khrushchev's secret speech, and Khrushchev's reforms turned a blind eye to black markets forming a capitalist class that was effectively able to form a cohesive bloc. China has capitalists, but it integrates them into their system so as to control them and limit them. The later soviets did not, and this grew ideological withering within the CPSU.
To return to the purges, the assassination of Kirov by the Fifth Column elements prompted response. Regardless of the legitimacy of the trials, the fact of the matter is that there was a Bolshevik Civil War, so to speak. Even if we assume that all sides of it had good intentions, or even if we assume Stalin had bad intentions, it was still the more popularly supported and democratic decision to purge the party of the actual, real threat the Fifth Column presented, which is why Stalin was still so supported by the public until well after his death.
The idea that the Soviet Union was governed by an iron grip is a misconception. There were weaknesses in the Soviet democratic processes, and crisis after crisis effectively limited the extent to which democracy could effectively function. However, I intensely disagree with Trotsky's suicidal plans, and I believe that the CPSU made the correct decision to reject such plans, and were forced to respond to real internal sabotage that stood to collapse the entire soviet project.
You're directly contradicting yourself in the first paragraph, and your statements on Trotsky's beliefs are far removed from anything we actually know about the man.
I will have to agree to disagree with you, because defending the path not taken can only be done entirely in hypotheticals and theory for which there is no concrete evidence, that said I firmly disagree with the characterization of the peasantry being fully committed to the socialist enterprise. They were cowed by fear, which is a weak substitute at best, which is why I find the bandwagon argument of "well it was popular" uncompelling. Stalin was a Tsar in all but name and he ruled like it. I have enough family who survived it to know who and what he was. Calling what came out of that period "socialist" is technically true, but socialism is a broad enough term to encompass many different systems, not all of which lead to good outcomes. Petty, punitive, and bigoted administration at many levels made a mockery of any claims of true solidarity among the people.
If you want to truly defend socialist principles, quit trying to sane-wash mistakes and wallpaper over the truth. The USSR was never a good example, let alone an ideal case of socialism in action. Pretending the lessons of the past didn't happen instead of taking the opportunity to learn from them and do better is the most American thing I can think of. We do not win by stealing from the capitalist playbook.
No, the peasantry were not "cowed by fear," this is ahistorical. Here's an excerpt from This Soviet World, written by journalist Anna Louise Strong in 1936:
The soviet model freed the peasantry from a slave-like experience under the Kulak farming. Stalin was no Tsar either, he requested to resign on half a dozen confirmed occasions, only to be rejected. The painting of Stalin as someone worse than, say, Churchill is an invention that came after his death. In his time, he was not feared but loved. An excellent history on the legend of Stalin and how it changed over time is given by Italian philosopher Domenico Losurdo.
Nobody ever said the Soviet Union was ideal. What it was, is enormously progressive and a dramatic uplifting for working people. There were many problems with it, but the good outweighed the bad. Learning from the past requires understanding the good and the actual bad, not just accepting capitalist framing of socialist states as correct.
A curated history from the mouths of the elites does not make good data. We can all see how the scions of the plutocrats in the US massage the truth and tell us we have never had it so good while we all know full well this is not the life we are actually living. This is not new, in fact it is as old a practice as history itself and the written word. We find fragments of the truth hidden in every nation from ancient Sumeria to Rome, to our present day. I'll put my faith in the stories of the small people who lived to tell the tale, thank you. It may not make for as compelling reading, but there's a truth there you won't find in official statements and official narratives.
Anna Louise Strong was an American journalist, not an "elite." She traveled the USSR, US, and PRC, reporting on the ground. Trusting only anecdotes that conform to your own beliefs, rather than historical record and journalism, doesn't seem to be very effective historiography.
Gotta love it when the lies survive long past the time the liars found them useful.
Declassified CIA memo:
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf
This is about Stalins death...
And also makes indirect mention of Stalin's earlier purges of political rivals, so it's the exact opposite of the evidence they're claiming.
The point, I believe, is that Stalin was never the caricature of a sole madman with no ability to be opposed throughout his tenure as head of state. The CIA report directly challenges that idea and instead suggests viewing Stalin as the "captain of a team," one with large influence, sure, but one man in a web of collective leadership. The response to Kirov's assassination, the event that directly led to the purges in the late 1930s, was not the decision of a single madman but instead a collective response to the perceived threat of Fifth Column-style elements, from what could be described as a "Bolshevik Civil War."
After the death of Lenin, the Bolsheviks did not cleanly break for Stalin. However, this does not mean that they split into "good" and "bad," but instead into those who coalesced around Stalin's "centrist" Marxist-Leninist views, the Trotskyist "left-opposition" views, and the Bukharinist "right-opposition" views. This struggle was not merely one of open debate, but one that led directly to sabotage, armed resistance, and struggle. The broad majority of the Bolsheviks, and the population as a whole, supported Stalin and his position that industrialization was of prime importance. The opposition, therefore, was often an underground movement.
Bringing this to the assassination of Stalin's close friend and ally Kirov, who was the only person other than the head of Stalin's security detail he allowed into the sauna with him, the party found it necessary to investigate how and why a top Bolshevik was killed. This led directly to the Moscow Trials, which independent observers believed to be legitimate, but Trotsky and his followers alleged were rigged and used purely for political gain for Stalin.
No matter what truly happened, sham trial or no, there are two critical facts:
The broad population and the CPSU supported the purges, this was not an invention of Stalin.
The "Bolshevik Civil War" was a real power struggle that the CPSU could not simply ignore.
The caricature of Stalin as it exists in common western depiction is one of a twin devil with Hitler, an evil force of nature that all feared. This was largely something that happened after the death of Stalin, after Khrushchev's not-so-secret "secret speech," where Khrushchev advanced his own career by attacking Stalin (and, to be clear, the speech has had numerous inconsistencies and fabrications identified since the opening of the Soviet archives).
Stalin was by no means a saint, he made mistakes that we should not simply accept. However, the "black legend" of Stalin, as Italian philosopher Domenico Losurdo calls it in his book on Stalin's legend in particular, is one that serves a definite political aim: to delegitimize socialism, and depict anyone who supports the same systems that saw doubling of life expectancies in post-revolutionary Russia, that saw full employment and free healthcare and education, that saw a semi-feudal society reach space in only half a century, as essentially devils worshipping cultists of the twin-devil Stalin, as "Stalinists," or "Tankies."
The ghost of Stalin's caricature is used to delegitimize Cuba, Vietnam, China, etc, and to delegitimize domestic support for these existing socialist countries. His popular image was transformed from someone who got on well with FDR and saw respect even in the western world, getting the honorary title of native American chief from indigenous tribes, to one of a twin evil with Hitler, for political aims at delegitimizing socialism. This isn't to say, again, that he was perfect, merely that there is a difference between Stalin the man, and Stalin the legend.
What's it like to be illiterate and yet so confident in your analysis?
And it also shows that despite the myth being useful, the people at the CIA whose job it was to analyze the USSR knew Stalin was *not" an absolute dictator.
But you'd have to actually read it to know that so I can see how that might be hard. Maybe we can get an AI animated slopachter to read it as a short form video and then you'll be able to follow along?
Or 1918-1921 for Russian Anarchists.