Is C-3PO's hardware and software open source?
I think it might be, there's no way Anakin would be able to buy proprietary hardware or software. So either he stole it, which his mother probably would not have allowed. Or he was able to scrap all the parts together because there is a template for humanoid protocol droids that we have also seen round Star Wars. And then the software itself either Anakin programed entirely himself, (which I know he's very smart, but even that seems a stretch) or he forked it. So it would make more sense that there was an open source catalog of protocol droid software. It also would make more sense due to the fact that a lot of people have droids, but they are not all created equal. I would think many of the droids on Coruscant were proprietary, while many of the droids in the outer rim are open source.
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There are tons of protocol droids in universe. He cobbled scrap bots together. Clever, but he didn’t invent or program it. More like fancy legos
Incorrect. Anakin programmed Threepio with the desire to serve his mother and with the six languages he spoke at the time.
I would agree its more like modification than building from scratch, but he still had to get in there and noodle with everything. Programming was absolutely involved.
I could see this being more like code blocks instead of actual software engineering. He probably found the different language modules and stuck them all in, and then did the equivalent of changes to a config file.
Edit config.txt
"sentience=1"
"British_sassy_butler=1"
anus=ACCESSIBLE
With the other horny prisoners...?
Zere vill be no funny business going on hier in ze horny jail!
He did not "program" 6 languages. Even if he was a super genius and spoke 6 languages, there's physically not enough time for Anakin to have typed the entire vocabulary and grammar of 1 language, much less 6.
Imo, his "programming 6 languages" was plugging in 6 hardware language modules and running a command to load them.
from language import *
On the one hand I can understand your meaning there.
On the other, Threepio's famous boast of "six-million forms of communication" kind of precludes having room for six-million physical modules anywhere in his chassis.
Enter: science-fantasy.
It would have to be a large number of languages per module, but the universe was written in a 20th century kind of way where hardware is single-purpose.
The actual answer is of course that Star Wars isn't believable, but ignoring that...
Sounds like copyright infringement to me
There is no copyright if you lack the star destroyers to enforce it. Or enough money to pay the headhunters.
Which people love in Star Wars, but then they want their real life to be, like, a slick, nonviolent, white-picket version of 1984 (edit: the novel). I get the psychology, but man, it's weird. A modest amount of risk seems worth it for, I guess, basic honesty.
I don't understand. I didn't talk about a romanticized idea of the past or a fictional universe. Help?
No, but you did talk about the internal logic of the Star Wars universe, and people like Star Wars. So, I launched into a small rant. My bad!
I meant 1984 the novel FWIW, where everything is really centrally controlled.
I tried to depict my belief, that copyright is a artificial construct, which needs enforcement to be effective. If no one takes repressive measures in their hand, people will ignore copyright laws.
I then took some plot devices and organisations from SW which represent repression and control to desribe that train of thought.
I failed to see the connection between this and your response, since you replied to me. But if there is none, that's fine by me. :)
PS: I think stories need to be larger than life to attract the audiences attention. It's the same recipe since ancient Greece's theatre works. Because people are people and they want what they always wanted.
I'll admit I don't know tons about Star Wars, but isn't is a bit of a lawless universe? Not quite Mad Max, but, like, on it's way. Dotted with wretched hives of scum and villainy and all that.
So, control is loose enough to allow things like breaking copyright law, and the tradeoff is there's a lot of less sympathetic crime going on. Basically, you can have freedom, or you can have order, and both are double edged swords. People seem to spend a lot of time asking for more order, because even in very safe Western society they're afraid. Maybe they shouldn't do that.
Yep. even if you take danger out of the equation,
He’s a slave boy in a scrap yard on some backwater shithole of a planet. Sue him
Hes a slave. Gota sue his owner Quato or whatever his name is.
Can't sue him as a kid because he has no money to pay you.
Can't sue him as an adult because he'll force choke you to death.
What a grift. He got it all figured out.
You wouldn't download a droid.
The first step down a dark path if he's not careful.
Look at it from the perspective of 1977 or just before, when the scripts were written. I wasn't alive back then, but from what you read, it was a time when (real-world) devices came with manuals, schematics, block diagrams, and if they were missing you could probably find them or get them from the manufacturer.
Apple I and II are just hitting the market, with a strong background in DIY culture, and in the unlikely case you had access to one of these (or something like an Altair 8800 etc), you'd probably know how to fix a blown cap with a soldering iron.
Maybe I'm glorifying the past here but, Star Wars was written at a time when things, including computers, were expected to be repairable. So what you're writing really only makes sense from a contemporary 2020-ies perspective, nobody would have raised an eyebrow at that detail in 1977 ... probably.
Hard agree!
Star Wars was explicitly written by a greasemonkey as gritty and grungy in direct contrast to the sleek, clean, computer-controlled future that dominated SF in that era. Droids function much more like custom cars than assembly-line computers with wireless updates.
Even later in our time but earlier in the SW time line, the one example of mass production, the droid army, was comically bad: incredibly dumb, fragile, and incompetent.
Roger Roger
The cannon fodder droids introduced in Phantom Menace are, but the other droids used by the separatists are generally ruthlessly effective.
What's the design/production philosophy behind those separatist droids? Been a while...
I think the reality is that Anakin was written as a tech wizard by writers that saw a lot of technology as just magic that tech wizards can do.
He was able to build a droid out of spare parts not because there was an open protocol droid system that enables technically inclined people to learn how to build their own custom versions. He built a droid because that's what a child tech genius would do. How did he program it? More tech magic. He's impressive, you aren't supposed to understand anything of what he did, it was just a plot device to show what the chosen one was capable of before the Jedi even found him.
Not trying to be a wet blanket, just so much of technology in media is written this way.
Especially with star wars, where it's closer to "space fantasy" than "science fiction"
I agree with you, and the part that always sinks this within SW is that all he did was put together a very commonly used droid from spare parts. Protocol droids are all over the place!
Is it impressive to put together a Honda Civic from spare parts in your spare time? Yes. But it's also just a matter of collecting the right parts and having the time to assemble them right. No one is inventing anything new, and it always seemed like that was what EP1 was trying to sort of say.
Although, nobody ever asks Gandalf to fix their printer or build their app. He gets to dine with kings.
Though he does get asked to go back to middle earth and fix it after dying, and the task was a bit more... involved than the typical printer maintenance job (though a laser printer does have some high voltage dangers tbf).
I mean, obviously I wasn't a slave on Tattooine, but I was a poor kid in a rural community. I figure Ani learned how to fix droids the same way I learned how to fix bikes and computers; I needed it, and couldn't afford a new one, so I had to teach myself how to make it work again, or face going hungry.
A lot of it is... well, kind of like figuring out where puzzle pieces are supposed to fit. Eventually, even if you don't quite know what you're doing yet, you can kind of guess where something is supposed to go. If you have a known good working model to compare to, and a good manual, you can teach yourself all kinds of things if you really need to do it.
That, and he was owned by Watto. Watto, as an employer (fuck that guy generally, but bear with me), had to teach his employee how to operate equipment. How to catalogue his junk and get it working again so it could be sold. Anakin was a smart kid, but he also literally built and scrapped droids for work. He had hours a day and nearly unlimited broken droids to take apart.
I've been accused of wizard shit more than once, and I'm nowhere near the same class as the actual tech wizards. I like to think I know enough to get by and call out bullshit. Honestly, the only gripe I have with how Ani's technical talent was written is that he was unrealistically young. The rest was pretty believable.
The most relatable bit was forgetting to put 3PO's eye back in when he powered him on.
Yeah, and I think that's what they were going for. Just "I programmed this artificial being that feels emotions like happiness, fear, and frustration, has his own wants and desires, and can calculate the odds of arbitrary things on the fly" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. It feels similar to a kid building a computer out of spare parts (reasonable) and then programming his own OS and software for it (less reasonable).
But, to be fair, maybe it was more of a case of he found modules with those different languages on them and plugged them into a standard but customizable protocol droid program and is referring to that configuration as "programming" rather than the act of writing the software itself. Kinda like how flashing a new ROM onto your bios can be called programming it, despite the lack of coding.
If putting together a droid is anything like putting together a conventional PC, I would assume that he would have the tools for flashing the industry standard software onto a blank droid brain, just like I do with a blank hard drive. Hell no I didn't write that, I just know the steps for copying it onto storage media so it runs.
In the Legends canon, droid sentience was the accidental result of an improbably successful computer worm. Wiping droids' memories removes the malware, but it finds its way back eventually.
Yeah, in hindsight, I'm not really sure why I assumed it would be from scratch.
Star Wars has a data transmission problem in that software isn't easily distributed across the galaxy.
Its much more likely Anakin found the programming or just a part with the "OS" installed and put it into a bunch of spare protocol droid parts. Maybe it took some tinkering but I don't think he did a bunch of low level stuff as he's a slave without real education, and I don't believe anything of that level of skill comes up again.
Also noted, I don't think the droids in Star Wars are 1 for 1 "operating systems" as we know them as they (can) have advanced personalities in a way that our software certainly doesn't do.
You know, back in the not-so-far-away days, the best programmers didn't have educations and the worst ones did.
The movies do imply he's a pretty savvy scrap engineer, so I'll give him that.
Its just the environment he's forced to work in.
Yeah, and it's perfectly fine for a kid to be an advanced engineer/mechanic and championship podracer at 9-years-old who also saves the day in a key battle, just as long as they're not a girl because Mary Sues absolutely suck and it's not sexist at all to say that because Marty Stu exists as an entry in allthetropes. /s
I was a kid when I watched episode 1, and I was so confused by how any of it made any sense.
Midichlorians. Obviously.
Oh right, that shit made me wonder why they weren't just transfusing blood around to induct new members... Or, you know, giving the power of the force to every person.
Honestly I think knowing he was vader made it a lot easier to accept. Like a main character not dying in a prequel. Still though, it was pretty wack looking back. lol
This is the loveliest conversation I have seen all week. I have been incredibly burned out with Reddit of late, so this is refreshing.
Lemmy now is what Reddit used to be like in the early days. I hope the enshittification stays away!
It can't really enshittify, in the original sense of the word, since nobody controls it. It probably will follow the Reddit trajectory, up until the point when the admins started to be evil, though.
C-3PO is proprietary. How do I know this? George told me it is supposed to be the first warning sign that Anakin is evil.
Little did we known he used two swimming pools worth of water everytime he translated for r2d2
my jawa friend says, and i qoute
Make of that what you will
I'm rusty, but that's either
"Hey! My hemorrhoids are flaring up"
or
"Hands off! That's mine"
or
"Always drink your Ovaltine"
Everything is open source if you can read Assembly! (Replace Assembly with whatever the Star Wars equivalent is, which is probably just Assembly.)
Really awful, undocumented, spaghetti code open source. But sure, technically correct!
The binary language of moisture vaporators... obv
Just because you can open the can doesn't mean it comes already open.
That some people can run Linux on a PS5 doesn't make the PS5 open hardware.
The internet doesn't exist in SW, so likely things are based on physical modules; so he probably scavenged, repaired, or assembled a physical module that embodies the droid's mind and everything is more or less hard-coded. And because the internet--and perhaps copyright law--doesn't exist, he doesn't need to activate the module with a central server.
I don't really even think programming is touched on, it's more just based on electronics. Software isn't really at thing.
[Edit: I mean, obviously software exists, but it doesn't function like real software does in the world. Tech is largely based on droids, which are delightfully physical and embodied for a visual medium, and droids are more like artisanly-modified cars than software that can be updated and copied. That is to say, the technology in Star Wars takes a lot more cues from mechanics and electronics than it does from software and programming. It is a markedy and consciously retro type of future (or should I say "past?").]
They do have the Holonet which seems to be a sort of amalgamation of media including information that can be looked up.
There’s also the coruscant library that can be accessed anywhere by most people for a fee. Most planets also have their own.
According to a comic released in the early 2000s. Anakin found the husk and most of C3P0's parts in the junkyard before he rebuilt him.
So how much of him was originally there vs. Rebuilt by Anakin is unknown. But we have seen other protocol droids and they have the same body shapes and parts. But those are the exterior parts. The interior could have been different hardware all together.
This is exactly the content I want from the internet. Thank you.
No, the prequels just have shitty writing.
From a SF perspective, droids are universally shittily written throughout the franchise:
You have robots that are completely intelligent and self aware and can do any job and they just sort exists side-by-side with humans as helpers without having any significant impact on the economy or asking for rights.
I know there are droid rebellions somewhere in the lore, but droids are assiduously unstudied on film.
Also worth mentioning that a lot of droids start developing personalities if you don't wipe their memories regularly, which is kind of existentially horrifying.
Anti-Janets.
Its kind of like the "wait do they eat the pokemon?" question, where its gone unmentioned for so long its become too big to tackle properly. Instead you get a brief mention of slowpoke soup or a droid who says hey treat me like a person but 90% of the time its brushed under the rug.
There's also, in Scarlet & Violet, Klawf al ajillo, which is just a soup of Klawf claw cooked in garlic, as well as Klawf sticks. This is in addition to a bunch of indistinct meats that seemingly also have to come from Pokémon. (Unless those meats are lab-grown, which seems plausible in a world where Pokémon can magically regenerate to full health at a Pokémon Center.)
Klawf can grow back their claws if they lose them, but organically losing their claws is definitely not how Klawf claws are being harvested for commercial sale.
I suppose we could use whatever technology is being utilised at Pokemon centres to lop limbs off of Pokemon and then regrow them. No animal killing!
In A New Hope, Luke mockingly says “hi” to R2D2 when C3P0 introduces them, as if saying hi to a droid is stupid as they’re not alive.
Later in the series, when R2 gets his head blown off in combat, Luke doesn’t blink. After the fight, they unload R2 from the X wing and he says “fix him” and walks away. Droids are very much not human in the OG trilogy.
Then we get to the prequels. R2 saves the ship as they get past the blockade, and the queen does a formal thank you for the droid. It really is a complete 180 and now droids are “people” in the prequels.
They're not treated as equals in the original, that's for sure, but they're sure written as self-aware individuals.
Luke threatens to wipe Arturito's memory, too, if he doesn't stop misbehaving; or maybe C3PO mentions it because he's internalized droid hatred?
I just popped in the DVD of the Lucas re-release of New Hope and Luke is very concerned when R2 comes down, says "oh no", and only relaxes when the technician says, "we'll fix him" ... so I think we see some growth there.
I’m pretty sure Luke gives an insincere “hi” to R2D2 because he’d rather be running down to Tosche Station instead of doing farm work.
He doesn’t blink when R2 gets shot during the trench run, but his face always conveyed to me that he’s scared shitless to now be alone with fighters on his trail while focusing on pushing through that fear because now he is the last hope for the galaxy.
Before attacking the Death Star, doesn’t Luke tell the technicians take good care of R2D2? “That little droid and I have been through a lot together”, or something like that? Are those the words of someone who doesn’t care?
I mean, I say the same thing to the mechanic when I take my car in for work. We can have sentimental value in stuff we own, doesn’t mean we identify them as independent agents, or sentient beings.
No medals for the Wookiee OR the droids!
I'm mean screw the droids, but Chewie?! No medal?!
When I was a kid and thought about robots I never considered their intelligence would require a massive physical infrastructure just to make the best guess of the next word.
It seems shortsighted of science fiction authors to have not predicted the problems we're currently having with AI. They had decades to think about it. Did any of them predict that people would be using it to cheat on homework, create scams, disrupt social media with spam and terribly off-putting fake images, publish books and songs nobody wrote and nobody wants, all while using obscene amounts of energy? The world doesn't seem more futuristic or in any danger of getting wiped out by some autonomous AI thing that's been given access to nukes, both typical major themes. The world to me just feels more empty and boring. It's just a new tool hucksters can use to defraud people.
Some of the other things the tech oligarchs are pursuing are also cliche themes of science fiction: space exploration, the metaverse, the meta glasses, Musk's Neuralink. So if AI did not turn out as expected, how's the rest of this stuff gonna work out?
Actually, they did predict this. It's been one of the classic ethical questions posed by hard sci-fi since we were feeding punch-cards into slots and soldering breadboards.
Isaac Asimov in particular wrote a lot of short stories tackling the ways that an AI could break the Laws of Robotics. Hell, he invented the Laws of Robotics specifically as a plot device for his setting to discuss the philosophy behind computer ethics.
The problem is, the tech oligarchs failed the reading assignment and didn't actually read the books that were supposed to warn them NOT to do the thing.
Did anyone expect that? Like, there was enough different thinkers, and takes, that somebody probably suggested it.
Usually, people gravitated in the opposite direction, though: To be smart, an algorithm has to be beautiful and profound and sublime.
Isaac Asimov entering the chat like
Which work was that in?
Unrelated question: is there any scene in any of the Star Wars where C3PO does anything useful? Like translate something or advice on protocol or something? I remember it kind of walking around and commenting on things but I don't remember it ever actually do anything. R2D2 hacks stuff, helps pilot things and delivers holographic messages but is 3CPO anything other than a toy? Some sort of next generation Furby?
In Return of the Jedi 3PO is gifted to Jabba the Hutt by Skywalker who uses him as a translation slave for a while. 3PO provides accurate translations for Jabba from what we can see.
He also translated the Eewok language for them.
Yeah he is a translator/protocol droid he isn't the most useful in a crew who all speaks galactic basic and is running from blaster bolts. But he did everything he was supposed to do just fine. People just don't care to see a droid plugged up to a moisture evaporator doing "nothing"
He served as a translator when Padme was a senator
People mention the ewoks
He was a diplomat for the Jedi for a bit
Believe he I infiltrated the first order as a spy or some shit as well...
But one could argue Luke would be dead if C-3PO hadn't told him R2 had taken off and subsequently followed him.
In "A New Hope" after R5 explodes he tells Luke they should purchase R2D2. Luke and Uncle Owen could have picked any replacement droid, but C3PO advises them to pick R2D2.
Speaks to the Ewoks and gets them to help the rebels.
Good one. I didn't remember that.
There were many such scenes. Mainly in the earlier movies (originally released order). Later he got somewhat degraded to a clown.
For example? I'm thinking mostly about the original trilogy. What does he ever do that's useful?
So in A New Hope R2 trudges off looking for Obiwan at the beginning of the movie. They are both captured by jawas and are going to be sold for parts. Owen needs a droid that can communicate with his moisture evaporators and diagnose issues. R2 is useless in this capacity. He buys C-3PO. C-3PO tells him to buy R2. The entire series would have been over right there as R2s memory would have been wiped by anyone without a translator there. 10 minute short film about how the Almighty Empire who does no wrong thwarted a terrorist organization.
Oh and Empire Stikes Back famous hyperdrive issues are diagnosed by "plugging C3PO up to the hyperdrive" so he could download/diagnose and spit out any hardware repairs needed while performing any software changes needed himself.
He translates R2 for Luke which is how he finds out he's carrying the secret message.
In Return of the Jedi, he communicates with the Ewoks, ultimately enlisting them against the Empire, probably the most he actually "did."
The parts could be proprietary, but with an interface that Aniken reverse engineered and jerry-rigged together..
It is a universe where DRM tied to a central server is impossible. It is likely the software beyond the OEM is cracked to hell and modified far beyond its original purpose. After all, the Millennium Falcon's nav computer is repurposed droid software.
Open Source was not invented yet, back then.
Sort of?
Open source was the historical default. The settings on your radio are just the settings on your damn radio, nobody "owns" that. Ditto for mechanical looms a century earlier. Intellectual property for records, works of literature and (very relevantly) player piano scrolls anticipated software, but in all cases that was down to an aspect of being a kind of performance, rather than purely technical. Patents have their own weird history, but they evolved directly from mercantilist/feudal government-granted monopolies, rather than from them being a kind of product.
The earliest computers were bespoke, so the teams responsible for building and maintaining them also programmed them. Open vs. closed isn't really a relevant question for the programs themselves, then. The algorithms you might use in the programs made their way around through academic publications, or word of mouth.
AFAIK, the Apollo missions were the first time large-scale software engineering happened, the way we're used to. Lots of effort was put into the hardware, but then the overlooked software part became an unexpected grind. It was all in assembly, people weren't talking to each other, and the wheel was reinvented many times. To everyone's surprise, it was the money pit and source of delay, and the finished product ended up having issues during the flights, as well.
Obviously, from there, proprietary software became more and more prevalent. It was the era where businesses were buying up mainframes and minicomputers, and software companies could be just another contractor component sold in whatever smoke filled boardroom. I don't know if open source would have been practical, when you only have 50 users, but still a sizeable, ugly code base that does everything from scratch.
Once you move into the personal computer era, you start to see open source as we know it grow back, and very slowly start winning. Since you can copy software easily and infinitely, whatever collection of volunteers turns out to be enough. There's no scarcity to drive an actual market.
about as open as a TV remote smashed on the side of the highway after it's been run over by around 1000 eighteen wheelers.
Fleshhhh you promised me flesssh master.
Since the universe of Star Wars is a similiar Corporatopia as in Rimworld, maybe there's SOC-like Personality Cores, that just adapt to the available actuators and sensors (there was a self-learning 4-legged robo-spider 10 years ago already, that teaches itself walking no matter what).
In Legends canon, droid sapience was accidental. It was the result of a worm that infected droid brains, and was passed wirelessly via shortband communication frequencies. Once it escaped into the wild, there really was no stopping it since by that point it was self-writing and evolving, like a real infectious disease. Wiping droids' memories regularly is supposed to prevent personalities from forming.
Every droid can develop a personality if you leave them alone long enough. R2 is one of the rare droids in the canon that has never had his memory wiped. Ever. Obi-Wan had 3PO wiped because he's shit at keeping a secret, but R2 knows how to keep his trap shut.
I can't remember which book it was, but R2 was reminiscing about his life experiences with I think BB-8. Talking about how he feels like it's his duty to be an observer. A recorder, someone who's close to history shaping events, and will always remember the moments that made the future. Which I think was cool.
You promised me fleeesh! All I feel is paaaain! Why have you done this to me??
We will never know. The prequel trilogy is not canon.
Not canon? Why do you say that?
Have you seen the prequel trilogy
The only canonisation it deserves is being fired out of one
It's the second best trilogy
How well would he/it do in today's Robot Wars, I wonder.
I mean, he's fluent in 7,000,000 forms of communication. That's gotta count for something.
7,000,000 variants of "oh dear" vs Sir Killalot
He's remote controlled. 3p0 controls himself.
I think real droids would be like smartphones - once a good commercial design is found they all just end up looking like that.
If R2D2 was cheaper to manufacture than C3PO, theyd all eventually look like R2D2.
No they are built for different purposes. Artoo is an astromech droid. Meant to be used in something like the x wings.
C3p0 us a protocol droid meant to assist with cultural functions and protocols as well as other diplomatic needs
Yup, protocol droids needed to be bipedal to integrate better with the average lifeform. Astromechs were tools that were exposed to atmosphere and vacuum. I do find it a little strange that canon chose to make the astromechs only communicate with beeps and boops that skinbags needed to learn the language of instead of just having them do speech synth.
Canon typically is written after scripts are to fill in back story, his beeps and blips were entirely made because George Lucas was/is a technical guy and made his career out of incorporating new fx techniques
Literally, same movie, we watch R2-Motherboardfucking-D2 make complex fuselage repairs on an ambassadorial shuttle in microgravity while other droids are being blasted off the wing like sitting ducks. Did not flinch, did not look up, just had his tools in the breach, and did his job like the badass mechanic that he is.
You put 3PO in that position, he would have floated away screaming. (Which is completely sensible, because he was never programmed to do that shit. "I was programmed for etiquette, not destruction!"
Flip that around, would you trust R2 to communicate complex battle plans with a pre-FTL civilization of hunter-gatherers when the stakes of a bad subject-verb agreement can be measured in sentient life? Bro speaks Binary, and nothing else. But 3PO did. He has de-escalated conflicts that could have ended in bloodbaths, because he knows his job 6 million ways from Sunday.
They're both awesome. We just like to bully 3PO because he has funny reactions to understandably terrifying and overwhelming shit.
If you read the thrawn trilogy back in the day, or maybe it was was the rogue squadron books, astrommechs have a memory reset that normally happens during maintenance , Luke refused to ever let Artoo get reset. In the past though Artoo has been reset (multiple different owners) he also has a particular personality quirk that he always ends up back in a position where he's "operating outside normal parameters" or some such bs.
Luke liked Artoos quirk so he encouraged it and preserved Artoos personality by preventing that maintenance
Probably, for there to be scraps you can easily turn into C-3PO, the official droids are also built up from standardised, open-source parts. Like, I've reused screws or bolts in an unintended context before, since they match that description, but how much could you build from a dead IPhone?
If the Empire kept more careful control over their education and production, they would probably have an easier time. It's just that a North Korea-type space opera, where the rebels have no ships, and can only get radios that continuously play Empire propaganda with no off switch, wouldn't make for good action sequences.
This should be marked NSFW. If Threepo wasn't open source before, the picture of his naked wires reveals all his secrets now!