As an aside, I learned that not everyone has an internal monologue.
I can't imagine what it's like; I only found out about it because I have a very poor ability to visually imagine anything and it's a related condition.
wait until you find out about Aphantasia and that some people have that with all five senses.
you say tomato, I can imagine taste tomãto.. and some can rotate that 3D red (or maybe green) tomatoe in their head
I was just writing "aphantasia" out in a comment while you writing that because I remembered what it was called.
One of my great worries in life is that I'll always be musically stunted because I have the audio version of aphantasia, too... but I also don't think it's necessarily THAT limiting practically, but it's so frustrating knowing that there are people who can hear all the notes in a John Williams symphony just out there walking around.
Obviously, so many more self-aware mammals don't have language than do, but I'm with you in the sense that I have no idea how you would turn it off or any real conception of what it would be like to go even an hour without it.
I like to think I actually have a pretty decent ability to visualize things, but one other thing that may be related is I also don't read as quickly as I would like. Upon asking my wife, who digests anything she's interested in at lightning speed, she informed me that she doesn't mentally articulate every word. She scans the information visually, still in order but without a detour through her speech center, and retention is excellent. Our daughter seems to do the same thing. Meanwhile, I'm here feeling like I've got shit on lockdown because at least I don't have to whisper the words to myself like some early medieval monk (to the extent that trope is even true... thanks for nothin', Augustine). If I quickly recite some meaningless mantra in my mind over and over again, I can speed things up for a little while, but it feels deeply unnatural.
Oh, I can turn My internal monologue off! When I was a teenager, I read how language shapes our ability to think. So I trained Myself to think without language, to increase the range of thoughts I'm capable of having and reduce bias.
Sometimes I realise I'm getting overstimulated (autism) by too much talking in My life, so I spend a few days with less internal monologue, to give Myself a break from speech, at least in My head. Then the buzzing sensation goes away and I slowly go back to having an internal monologue.
I'm with the others here: I want to hear more! I know it's ironic to ask you to put it into language, but what is your experience when you are thinking without internal monologue?
How interesting and cool. I mean, I can have certainly have experiences that flood over me without being articulated, and I can sort of stop talking to myself for a while and I don't lose the ability to function or anything, but it really cannot last more than a few minutes. Processing the world is deeply tied to language for me.
I don't have an internal monologue, it works more like a blackbox releasing thoughts when they are finished, the reasoning stays hidden more or less. I can reject the thought or send it back for further refinement, but it does not at all resemble a monologue or train of thought thing.
Fun story, I was at a Buddhist meditation session once, and while sitting there I discovered that I can turn my thoughts off almost completely. Which includes the processing of sensory information, like leg going numb or the guy next to me farting. These continued to exist but lost any meaning or relevance to react upon. It was a very weird experience, turning my mind completely inwards, experiencing an intense but pleasant void of complete nothingness while being conscious. It took about an hour for me to get back to normal afterwards. I asked the Buddhist guys later if that is an expected experience with this type of meditation, and they had never heard of such a thing.
Odd how different people's brains can be wired internally. And yet, I am able to communicate with all those fancy "internal monologue" people as if I was one of them.
I think the ugly truth is that a lot of that internal monologue is just froth on the surface; the real processing is done below that. I think not having an internal monologue is disturbing to people because they don't know what to base their identity on without it.
Someone once described consciousness as like an Operating System UI. Everything is very visible and symbolic but ultimately meaningless without being connected to lower levels that we can't access, levels where complex things happen automatically.
It's interesting because we just assume everyone's internal experience is like ours, and everyone else assumes the same of us.
When I was a kid, nobody told me I needed glasses, and I didn't think anyone could see the board, but ok, this is how the world is.
And I'd been through years of "visualization" exercises never imagining that people were actually having vivid visual experiences; I interpreted all as metaphor (and also wondered what the big deal was--it was all so underwhelming!).
Yes, the visualization one is confusing for me, because I have a sense of images -which kind of sounds like what you're saying with 'metaphor' - but it's not a literal image, but at the same time, it's vivid like a natural image would be, even though it's not.
My monologue operates only when I need to think things through, but it's a conversation with myself. Generally people feel uncomfortable around people who talk to themselves all the time, so I learned to silence the monologue when it's convenient
I've got the normal pitter patter most of the time. I notice sometimes when I'm falling asleep I'll catch internal conversations between people whom I have no personal connection to.
I am in the same boat. I have to concentrate really hard, and focus on bits and pieces of anything I try to visualize in my head; never the whole image. e.g. an apple is usually red, green, yellow. It is sort of roundish, where the bottom may be more flat than the top. It has a brown stem at the top. etc.
I have recently discovered that when I use CBD gummies, my continuous internal monologue shuts off. I still have it, but it’s shorter and less specific, and sometimes I feel like I don’t have it (or remember it 🤷♂️). It’s nice because it makes me less tense and stressed. I live moment by moment and only in the present tense.
I don’t know if it’s related, but I also have cPTSD, and that does dramatically affect how you think.
I was on a psychotropic drug (wellbutrin, maybe?) that gifted me the extraordinary ability of normal visualization; i could read a passage and see it in my mind as visually as a movie.
My dreaming was similarly vivid, but, sadly, almost completely inspired by body horror, so I had to go off of it.
31 replies
I really love everything about this. Truly creative.
Oh nice, finally a use for my neverending internal monologue
As an aside, I learned that not everyone has an internal monologue.
I can't imagine what it's like; I only found out about it because I have a very poor ability to visually imagine anything and it's a related condition.
wait until you find out about Aphantasia and that some people have that with all five senses.
you say tomato, I can imagine taste tomãto.. and some can rotate that 3D red (or maybe green) tomatoe in their head
I was just writing "aphantasia" out in a comment while you writing that because I remembered what it was called.
One of my great worries in life is that I'll always be musically stunted because I have the audio version of aphantasia, too... but I also don't think it's necessarily THAT limiting practically, but it's so frustrating knowing that there are people who can hear all the notes in a John Williams symphony just out there walking around.
yeaaah learning abt Aphantasia absolutely broke me. tbf I was already at a low part of my life and realizing I had it was just another nail, but man.
Sounds peaceful...
Obviously, so many more self-aware mammals don't have language than do, but I'm with you in the sense that I have no idea how you would turn it off or any real conception of what it would be like to go even an hour without it.
I like to think I actually have a pretty decent ability to visualize things, but one other thing that may be related is I also don't read as quickly as I would like. Upon asking my wife, who digests anything she's interested in at lightning speed, she informed me that she doesn't mentally articulate every word. She scans the information visually, still in order but without a detour through her speech center, and retention is excellent. Our daughter seems to do the same thing. Meanwhile, I'm here feeling like I've got shit on lockdown because at least I don't have to whisper the words to myself like some early medieval monk (to the extent that trope is even true... thanks for nothin', Augustine). If I quickly recite some meaningless mantra in my mind over and over again, I can speed things up for a little while, but it feels deeply unnatural.
Oh, I can turn My internal monologue off! When I was a teenager, I read how language shapes our ability to think. So I trained Myself to think without language, to increase the range of thoughts I'm capable of having and reduce bias.
Sometimes I realise I'm getting overstimulated (autism) by too much talking in My life, so I spend a few days with less internal monologue, to give Myself a break from speech, at least in My head. Then the buzzing sensation goes away and I slowly go back to having an internal monologue.
A vow of silence is part of a formal monastic life... probably for the same reason you do your retreats.
Train us, sensei, in these dark arts!
I'm with the others here: I want to hear more! I know it's ironic to ask you to put it into language, but what is your experience when you are thinking without internal monologue?
How interesting and cool. I mean, I can have certainly have experiences that flood over me without being articulated, and I can sort of stop talking to myself for a while and I don't lose the ability to function or anything, but it really cannot last more than a few minutes. Processing the world is deeply tied to language for me.
It habit. To form, practice think without talk. Spend more and more time. Use few word when have to speak. Better for keeping habit going.
~ Vivace
I don't have an internal monologue, it works more like a blackbox releasing thoughts when they are finished, the reasoning stays hidden more or less. I can reject the thought or send it back for further refinement, but it does not at all resemble a monologue or train of thought thing. Fun story, I was at a Buddhist meditation session once, and while sitting there I discovered that I can turn my thoughts off almost completely. Which includes the processing of sensory information, like leg going numb or the guy next to me farting. These continued to exist but lost any meaning or relevance to react upon. It was a very weird experience, turning my mind completely inwards, experiencing an intense but pleasant void of complete nothingness while being conscious. It took about an hour for me to get back to normal afterwards. I asked the Buddhist guys later if that is an expected experience with this type of meditation, and they had never heard of such a thing.
Odd how different people's brains can be wired internally. And yet, I am able to communicate with all those fancy "internal monologue" people as if I was one of them.
I think the ugly truth is that a lot of that internal monologue is just froth on the surface; the real processing is done below that. I think not having an internal monologue is disturbing to people because they don't know what to base their identity on without it.
Someone once described consciousness as like an Operating System UI. Everything is very visible and symbolic but ultimately meaningless without being connected to lower levels that we can't access, levels where complex things happen automatically.
The reasoning stays hidden? That's absolutely wild to me. How do you... Introspect? I'm genuinely curious.
Yeah that was a messed up thing to discover!
It's interesting because we just assume everyone's internal experience is like ours, and everyone else assumes the same of us.
When I was a kid, nobody told me I needed glasses, and I didn't think anyone could see the board, but ok, this is how the world is.
And I'd been through years of "visualization" exercises never imagining that people were actually having vivid visual experiences; I interpreted all as metaphor (and also wondered what the big deal was--it was all so underwhelming!).
Yes, the visualization one is confusing for me, because I have a sense of images -which kind of sounds like what you're saying with 'metaphor' - but it's not a literal image, but at the same time, it's vivid like a natural image would be, even though it's not.
Imagine an apple on a table.
Did you do it?
What kind of apple was it? What was the tabletop made of?
I understand there's an apple on a table, and I have an idea of it, but it's hugely abstract. There's no specificity to any of it.
Apparently "normal" people have a very definite image in mind for this test.
It's called aphantasia, I think, if you want to learn more.
My monologue operates only when I need to think things through, but it's a conversation with myself. Generally people feel uncomfortable around people who talk to themselves all the time, so I learned to silence the monologue when it's convenient
I've got the normal pitter patter most of the time. I notice sometimes when I'm falling asleep I'll catch internal conversations between people whom I have no personal connection to.
The brain is a strange place.
I am in the same boat. I have to concentrate really hard, and focus on bits and pieces of anything I try to visualize in my head; never the whole image. e.g. an apple is usually red, green, yellow. It is sort of roundish, where the bottom may be more flat than the top. It has a brown stem at the top. etc.
I have recently discovered that when I use CBD gummies, my continuous internal monologue shuts off. I still have it, but it’s shorter and less specific, and sometimes I feel like I don’t have it (or remember it 🤷♂️). It’s nice because it makes me less tense and stressed. I live moment by moment and only in the present tense.
I don’t know if it’s related, but I also have cPTSD, and that does dramatically affect how you think.
I was on a psychotropic drug (wellbutrin, maybe?) that gifted me the extraordinary ability of normal visualization; i could read a passage and see it in my mind as visually as a movie.
My dreaming was similarly vivid, but, sadly, almost completely inspired by body horror, so I had to go off of it.
The thinking guy is the actual idiot, as the water will pool on his bumpy thought bubble and the weight of his thoughts will bring him down
Good thing the talking guy has his eyes closed, or he'd be really offended.
Shit. I just got the joke on my second viewing of this!
Pls assist
speech bubble works as umbrella but thought bubble does as well