So, on pronouns.
I have a few questions on how to best behave to be as welcoming and inclusive as possible without sounding bad. I hope you guys don't hate me.
I'm just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him? Is that how I should tell people? Do you actually tell them as you meet them ? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?
How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?
And about respecting other people's pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don't before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?
I've never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?
I'd love some help with all of this.
I live in a house with three queer/poly people. Around here, people sometimes introduce themselves or others with a note about their pronouns. But if someone doesn't, it's okay and either people will pick up the right ones from context, or they will guess and maybe be gently corrected.
"DiD yOu JuSt AsSuMe My GeNdEr??" is not real; it's an Internet troll parody.
That's a relief.
So just go on about my merry way and if someone corrects me respect their choices ?
Yeah. Like if you thought someone's name was Joe but it was actually Jeff and they tell you that, it's not a big deal. Just one of those things that sometimes happens if you're meeting new people.
Oh no, if I think someone's name is Joe and it turns out being Jeff, I feel atrocious.
Sure, but you probably have the sense to focus that into remembering their name correctly next time. You wouldn't go telling them that Jeff is a molester name because Epstein and that therefore they should pretend to be named Joe.
Exactly this. It’s just a minor social correction. Like if you meet Pamela and a few sentences later you call her Pam. She corrects you to ‘Pamela’ because she doesn’t like the nickname. No big deal, you call her Pamela and move on. It’s like that.
From what I've seen gender diverse people generally seem to understand the difference between someone's who's just made a mistake and someone who refuses to use the correct pronoun despite being corrected numerous times.
That last bit is the important thing. If someone tells you pronouns, use them. If someone tells you they prefer "they/them" and you keep using he or she on purpose, you are disrespecting them.
We all make mistakes sometimes and most people I've met who use alternative pronouns that may conflict with their socially expected appearance don't mind correcting someone a few times or will brush it off a few times, but more than that, especially if you see and interact with this person regularly, you become an asshole.
I try really hard to be respectful of someones pronoun choice but I will readily admit I find 'they/them' requires quite active concentration and thought not to refer to someone as she / he.
Writing interview notes have actually helped a lot for me to use they/them since we have to be gender neutral in our notes. Now it's not so hard to switch into using it when needed.
Yep exactly! I’m trans and can confirm it’s not a huge deal. It’s actually usually fine to assume someone’s gender.
I think the people who end up getting upset are the ones who are isolated from the LGBT community in real life.
Yup, that's about it. A good tactic if you're not sure about someone's gender is to lead with your own: "hi, I'm shapis, he/him". They'll invariably follow suit most of the time. If they don't and you get it wrong, well, you tried and were polite about it.
I know I'm out of touch on this, but I just can't imagine someone introducing themselves in this way. Particularly if you're a cis male and your pronouns are he/him. I guess it depends on context.
Yeah, it's definitely still something new. It's not something I would typically do in 99% of face to face encounters. In work presentations in front of a large audience we typically just fill it in on the introduction card at the start.
It's only a tactic for the edge case where someone presents ambiguously, in which case they're probably perfectly used to it as a way to politely ask. And yeah, it's a little awkward, but no more so that any other "polite chat with a new person" banter.
You can usually tell what pronouns to use via normal social awareness, and when in doubt, sharing yours is a polite way to prompt others to share theirs.
People who actually care about pronouns will tell you theirs.
To add to this, I have yet to meet a person in the real world who gives a shit about pronouns. I swear the whole thing is just an online phenomenon used to get people to fight over nonsense.
Most people don't have to care about pronouns. For a small subset of people the gender of their brain does not match the gender they appear as. Passing as your preferred gender can take years and is mostly down to genetics. So non-passing trans people will ask others to use their pronouns so they can socially transition before they pass. And that isn't even mentioning non-binary people. The reason cis people specify their pronouns is to normalize it for trans people who don't have a choice.
In my university Ive been asked what my pronouns were multiple time by all sorts of people
Idk how it is where you live but in french univerities it is definetly real life
Honestly, I think that if I would say "my pronouns are he/him", people would think that's a weird thing to say and would think something like "oh, it's one of those woke people".
Where I live, the people that tell you about their pronouns are a minority, and they are usually people that need to tell you their pronouns to avoid confusion, or people that are particularly active in the "woke" community.
For 99% of the people you meet, it's fair to assume pronouns because it's obvious. And if your assumption was wrong, they can just tell you. No need to get butthurt over it.
Saying "my pronouns are..." without anyone asking for them is just ridiculous in my opinion. Like, what are people going to say 5 years from now? "My name is ...., my pronouns are ..., my ethnicity is ..., I live in ... and my favorite color is ...."?
What a dumb way to start a conversation. You know, the whole point of a conversation is that you ask and answer questions, or share things you like to share. We don't need to share everything in the introduction sentence, including pronouns. It's just pointless most of the time.
To be clear: if anyone wants to tell me their pronouns right away, all good, I won't dislike you for it. Just don't expect the same from me, just assume my pronouns and I'll be happy to correct you on the off chance that you're wrong.
No one's expecting that of you dude. The "woke people" aren't out to get you because you don't introduce yourself with your pronouns, nor are they pushing for that ridiculous future hypothetical you set up. They're just looking to help others get by. No need to be so touchy about it.
Between those statements and so much concern about seeming "woke", I don't think they're only worried about the "0.001%" here.
So we've gone from "0.001% get offended about pronouns" to "It's self centered (ie 'wrong') to introduce yourself with pronouns." Maybe just let people engage with the world in the way that best suits them? Sometimes that includes prefacing an introduction with pronouns to head off any mistakes or discomfort. These people are just trying to get by. Try not to be so judgemental.
While I personally wouldn't go as far as to call people self-centered, I do think Mr Blott has a point, a lot of people may think they are self-centered for immediately declaring their pronouns (or anything else other than your name for that matter).
Anyway, that wasn't what I was trying to say. All I wanted to say is that I don't think that announcing your pronouns is something that will be or should be normalized, since it's pointless for the vast majority of people. I do understand why some people would prefer to do this anyway to avoid the awkward situations like "ahem, actually it's... euuh... he, not she", and I don't have a problem with that.
You both very clearly do. Stuff like calling things pointless and ridiculous, advocating for the "vast majority" or "99.999%" of people? That only serves to isolate and "other"ize. It's hurtful and dismissive of real people. Following it up with "but people can do what they want" doesn't erase what you say. Might as well start it off with "No offense, but..."
If you are truly trying to be kind and accepting here, maybe take some time to self reflect on how you view and talk about these things and what's behind that.
I apologize if my comment sounds a bit whiny or if I sounded a bit touchy. I was just a bit annoyed with the amount of comments that seem to suggest telling people what your pronouns is is a common thing in real life, while in my experience, almost no one will ever do that, since it's obvious in 99.9% of all cases.
But I suppose I could have phrased my comment a bit less aggressively and I could have made my point clear with less rambling.
Just because you have little knowing experience with people that don't match what you consider "normal" doesn't mean it's near non-existant. You seem to be under the impression that people are going out of their way to address a non-issue when it very much affects real people.
You don't need to do it yourself, but dismissing it, calling it stupid or ridiculous, or just generally insinuating that it's something only weird people do is not helpful or kind. Quite the opposite, really.
The reality is that not everyone can go out of their way to adapt to every minority group in existence. I get that it affects people, but that's just life. Social norms are based on the most common needs and interests of society, not on those of each minority group combined.
As another example, consider neurodivergent people (ASD, AD(H)D, etc.). Such people (including myself) may struggle when trying to live in a world where most people are "normal" (e.g. poor social skills, anxiety, sensitivity to noises, etc.). It would be nice if everyone could adapt to the needs of all others, but it's unrealistic in practice due to how many different people with different needs there are in this world.
I don't go to people and expect them to adapt to my needs either, because I'm not entitled to their effort to adapt. Unless they are close friends, and they get to know me better, then maybe they will choose to avoid doing things that make me uncomfortable.
My point is: stop trying to revolutionize the world and introduce new social norms based on the needs of very tiny groups, you'll only annoy people.
Again, no one is demanding you do this. We're just taking in circles at this point, so I'll just leave it at that, with another suggestion to self reflect if you are earnest about being accepting of others.
In that case my previous comment is irrelevant and off-topic. It was a misinterpretation of your comment on my end.
In my original comment I did say that I don't have a problem with people that do tell me their pronouns, even if I do think that's a bit stupid and weird (we will have to agree to disagree on this one I'm afraid). This does not mean I'm not accepting of others, I only mean that I think this specific kind of social interaction feels weird to me.
I apologize if my opinion of this comes over as unkind or unhelpful. In fact I might even agree that it is unhelpful and unkind, but I much rather share an unhelpful opinion than a dishonest one (perhaps it is better for me to stay quiet in this case). I'm sure many people share my opinion or have a similar one. You also can't expect people to immediately change their opinion or be dishonest about it based on the needs of a minority group.
I also apologize if my initial comment sounded too aggressive and/or hateful. Maybe I should have chosen a more polite way to share this opinion?
I agree that it's weird, but I think sharing pronouns in an introduction is different from sharing ethnicity, place of living, and favorite color.
The latter 3 does not matter in a conversation, but the pronouns are always part of conversations: when you're speaking about Greg, you don't repeatedly say their name ("yeah, Greg has came into office half an hour ago, and Greg has been to the fridge, and Greg has prepared Greg's desktop, Greg is playing on the PlayStation since then. You can find Greg in the game room") because that's weird, you instead refer to it in a shorter form after the first time: with pronouns ("yeah, Greg has came into office an hour ago, and he has been to the fridge, and he has prepared his desktop, he is playing on the PlayStation since then. You can find him in the game room")
So my point is that it shouldn't hurt to also include your pronouns, when it's not obvious, because they will be used, and it will probably bother you. And we all (should) know that unhappy people won't be efficient, not just in work but neither in life. Are you a he? You don't want to be called a she either, right?
Fair point, it doesn't hurt to include it. But my point is that in most cases it's irrelevant and it isn't something everyone has to start doing.
When I go outside and look around me, 99% of the people don't need to tell me what their pronouns are, because I guess simply guess them with high certainty based on how they look. You might disagree with this if you feel like everyone should be able to choose their own pronouns (which is fine by me), but in reality most people don't want to tell you their pronouns, they want you to look at them and just know.
I did not yet see this happening IRL, but I can see that just exclaiming it is not appropriate. Though maybe they honestly just don't know what better way is there to introduce themselves, and to be clear, I don't know either.
Because you won't have to do anything with them. They don't tell their name either, because why would they do that, when just passing by on the street?
However at introductions there is a place for the pronouns, however weird it sounds today. I mean, introduction is about letting others know you and your things that you find relatively important.
Never said anyone would have to. I would never do that either, because is it obvious. Same for most people, because it is obvious. This is an optional thing, even for non-binary people: only those have to tell it who want to do so.
Cis allies usually put pronouns in their bios to show support and normalize the act itself of specifying then online. IRL since you are cis and I asume you look masculine there is no need to specify your pronouns.
Just whenever you meet someone and they tell you to talk to them in a specific way, just do it and respect their pronouns. Its easy. Most people dont care if you get it wrong the first times as long as you acknowledge your mistake and correct yourself, your brain will get used to it and you will not make the mistake later. That's the different between someone who is learning and an idiot purposefully misgendering someone.
BTW if you arent sure about someone elses pronouns, just ask them. Easy.
One thing I try to do as clueless old man is when I am writing a policy doc or instructions at work, I just stick with they/them.
Instructions on how to merge a branch in Git do not need gender specific pronouns.
Yeah. That is just better.
I think this is the most basic change to make that simplifies everything. Particularly online, until you described yourself as an 'old man' I had no idea of your gender. Traditional language would mean even without this information I'd still refer to you with he/him pronouns, or broader terms like 'this guy' etc, but to be more welcoming to everyone, we should be starting out using generic they/them for everyone.
What do you mean by 'never neutral'?
Cool thanks. I just put mine up in my bio. Hopefully in the right spot.
Your first sentence is a really good point. Many cis-gendered people thing it’s pointless to add their pronouns in their email/bio, but it helps to not out those who are trans. If everyone/most people state their pronouns then it makes it harder to unnecessarily identify those who are trans.
I've been to conferences where the name tag has a place for pronouns but most people don't fill them out. 99% of the time it's safe to assume the pronouns you believe are correct, are correct. If you get told otherwise use the preferred pronouns in the future. If someone freaks out over it after one mistake that's their problem.
You can also get around pronouns by just using names. I find i rarely need to use pronouns.
Just one thing to add, people freaking out is extremely uncommon. I haven't even heard about a case IRL, even for trans people it isn't something that tends to happen.
Don't be afraid to just guess when you are unsure, you can always ask though and at least for younger generations it isn't seen as weird or unpolite to do so
The only place it happens is in conservatives' minds and when people make the "mistake" on purpose.
A.K.A "the Jordan Peterson experience"
And as a bonus linguistic fun fact:
Everyone is they/them until you find out otherwise
Or at least that's how I was taught English
"I went to see a doctor about my headaches today."
"Oh good, what did X say?"
Anyone that doesn't use 'they' here either has more information than I provided or is a bit sexist.
Hello! Resident Genderfluid person here. Usually you can just ask their name and that works to get them to give you the greeting they like. They look like a James, but give you the name Samantha? Probably safe to use she/her unless doing so has them ask you to use something else. IRL, at least.
Online? It's usually in a bio or they will tell you if it is functionally relevant. The only people I (anecdotally) have seen devolve into scree when accidentally misgendered were people trying to start something or acting for the sake of poisoning the well.
As far as using non conventional pronouns irl, you probably haven't heard it since it is genuinely dangerous to be outed in a lot of places. Look up gay/trans panic laws. It's dangerous to be queer in America with Conservatives having so much sway right now.
I would also assume that if someone who looks like a James introduces themselves as Samantha, it's absolutely fine to ask for the correct pronouns, or ask them to confirm it's female pronouns. Samantha would probably actually appreciate it.
This is usually true enough for rule of thumb, but can vary wildly by geography. I would be willing to help smuggle a gender minority out of a rural zone, whereas I wouldn't be too surprised to hear "ze/zim" in some cities. In general, the GSRM community will appreciate a cis ally signaling ally-ship. OP, as long as it's safe for you, the community would appreciate your announcing pronouns; it signals that you are not a totally garbage human.
Mostly it's chill - don't worry about it. If you make an honest mistake, no sane person will think less of you for it. The real faux pas people keep running into is usually just being a cock about this. It's reasonably easy to avoid.
You likely don't need to tell anyone IRL. You're a guy, so he/him is natural. Nobody's likely to even ask. Same applies if it's obvious online, otherwise feel free to add it in your profile or something.
Most people are cis (etc) anyway, so the obvious guess is mostly safe. You rarely need to refer to anyone by a pronoun before they're introduced to you. In that case it's "they" - perfectly normal, native English for centuries, which people sometimes forget. Then, if someone's introduced as "Bob" he's probably fine with "he" etc.
If you're worried about getting it wrong, I'd just wait for a name or refer to them some other way.
IRL that's unlikely, neopronouns are pretty niche even on the internet. He/she/they will do in the vast majority of cases. People who insist on one of the other ones are fairly rare.
Probably. Straight is the wrong word here - that refers to your sexuality, not your gender identity. A straight male is into women. But a straight male could also have pronouns other than he/him. Usually, a cisgender male uses he/him pronouns, but not always. Cisgender is a word that means that your gender identity matches your assigned gender at birth - e.g. not transgender
Yes, the best way to do it is part of your introductions, like, “Hi, I’m Blake, my pronouns are he him”. Usually people don’t “say” the slash, it’s just a space, but you can say it if you want.
It’s up to you. If I am meeting someone 1:1 for the first time, I probably wouldn’t unless they did first. I always do it when I’m introducing myself to a group.
The only social cue is simply, “what are your pronouns?”. Ideally, we (cisgender folk) should be trying to make it easier for transgender/non-binary people by sharing our pronouns, even if they would be obvious to most people - I’m a hairy, 6’4” bear, most people can tell I identify as male, but if I say my pronouns are he/him or any/all pronouns (I don’t mind which pronouns people use for me) it makes it less awkward for trans people or gender non-conforming (GNC) folk to do so.
It’s up to you, nobody will expect it from you - it’s personal information after all. If you’re comfortable sharing it, then you can put it anywhere you like, including on your profile, or you can share at the point it becomes relevant.
Either they tell you, or you ask them! It’s better if you avoid trying to guess. If you need to use a pronoun and you haven’t been told them, go with they/them.
Nope, not at all! No one is expecting you to know their pronouns before they tell you, or you ask.
Usually not - most of the time, you probably can guess from gender expression, and you wouldn’t cause any offence. If there is even 1% doubt in your mind though, you should definitely just ask. Even if you’re 99.99% or even 100% sure, it’s good to ask anyways. The more we normalise people asking and sharing pronouns, the less awkward it becomes for everyone!
In my experience, it’s pretty uncommon, but it does exist. Usually they’re used by people who don’t really feel comfortable identifying as exclusively male or exclusively female, or by people who want to subvert or oppose the usual gender binary.
Hope this helps, thanks for being open with your questions and for trying to make the world a better place! If you have any other questions just ask.
Yes, your pronouns are he/him :)
Generally, people are pretty chill about it. If you are unsure how to refer to someone, you can always just call them by their first name or something else (the barista at the front counter, the person in the yellow sweater, etc!)
I wouldn't overthink it, most people are totally cool if you get it wrong, especially if you show a willingness to get it right from then on. Queer people just wanna be treated like everyone else :)
-queer guy living in the gay district
Well I didn't know you were called Dennis.
I make assumptions say what i think if im corrected then sure ill refer to u how u want. And when people get mad for me assuming they can get fucked and grow up they are juat words and if words hurt u that bad uve got bigger problems than ur pronouns.
Facts. My mom is Spanish ASF and to this day regularly misgenders people all the time (call me and my brother she, call sisters he), just hasn't come easy to her. As long as somebody isn't INTENTIONALLY calling u the wrong pronouns for the express purpose of pissing you off u just correct them and move on. If u get that hung up on a simple innocent mistake u need to step back and adjust your shitty attitude.
I think the key is for it to be a provisional guess and not a will-be-shocked-if-it's-wrong assumption. You need to be prepared to have been wrong.
I agree with what you're saying but there's a gentler way to say this. No need to say they can get fucked.
Yeah sometimes i forgot that not everyone uses swear words like we do down under
Yeah, I think that's pretty much all that is generally needed. I've had people assume but ask me first, just asking "she/her?" as a question, I respond yes, we go about our business. If you don't want to assume, you can also pretty much universally use they/them in passing, or if it's someone you interact with more frequently, people really don't tend to mind if you ask.
I mean I'm trans, I get around quite a bit in queer spaces, I haven't met anyone who would get super mad about initially assuming pronouns rather than just saying "hey I prefer XYZ" and moving on. Generally when people react strongly to being misgendered, it's due to ongoing conflict over their identities, having to deal with people who use pronouns to casually disregard your Identity, familial abandonment, etc. It is often a response to complex trauma from elsewhere. That's not really your responsibility, but I've been there and if you can offer them any grace in those moments, it's extremely helpful.
IMO, I think the world is going to transition to using they/them for gender unspecified folks. I've been practicing using they/them in written and spoken communications, and it comes off a lot less strange than you'd think.
*The English speaking world
You mean to tell me that they don’t use English pronouns in other languages? I’m gonna need a source on that one, buddy!
Although, more seriously, I am curious if other languages lacking common usage of gender neutral pronouns are doing similar things to they/them. I know mandarin also has a bit of a weird situation where the third person pronoun when spoken is gender neutral, but the characters are gendered (他/她/它 are all PRONOUNced “ta”). I don’t know too much about why this is, but it sounds like it was foreign influence that led to the distinction in the written form?
I know at least for French it's been more controversial as there was no direct they/them equivalent. Instead new language has started to be used, though it's not standard. I find it interesting as they/them is often defended (beyond the fact that it's been in use in English for a long long time) as being a language tool in English that's readily available and a far more palatable alternative to neo-pronouns. However in French (and other languages) I wonder if an invented gender neutral equivalent is culturally perceived as being no different.
I have worked in IT for 15+ years, and I default to they/them for pretty much everybody. If I get a ticket in for an end user, and the name on the ticket is Jaime or something, it's a coin toss on the gender, so I just go to they/them. Even if the name is more gender oriented, I don't make any assumptions. And of course there is the case for foreign names I have never heard before. There's no harm in using they/them. Or of course the ol' "The end user"
I just replied to another comment saying this. It's trivial and I ask others to do it. I was thinking it would be easy to build this into grammar check software - prompt the user to ask if the document is gender specific, and if not suggest they/them.
Pronouns are largely used to refer to people in the third person. As such I will never declare my pronouns because they aren't for me to use, they're for other people to use to refer to me. As such they should use whatever pronouns deliver maximal clarity for the listener.
I will respect others' pronoun preferences because I'm not an asshole, but when people start trying to tell me that I'm being bigoted by not stating my own pronouns, they can fuck off.
Just for another use case, pronouns can help clarify if you prefer to be called sir or ma'am.
I wouldn't call you a bigot for not having preferred pronouns though, that seems really silly.
If your friends refer to you as he/him, and you are happy with that, then those are your pronouns. E.g., "this is my friend so-and-so, he went to x college, but you being a y fan won't bug him" would be someone using he/him pronouns for you.
Mine are he/him. I don't bother telling people this on profiles, but I am cis and male-presenting, so people meeting me irl always guess my pronouns right.
On introductions: one totally cool option is to suggest introductions, start with introducing yourself and add your pronouns. This will alert others that you are gender-conscious, which will be welcome by queer and queer-friendly people.
Don't fret over it, in the same way you wouldn't fret about whether someone is a vegetarian or not. "Would you like some nuggets?" "Oh I'm vegetarian but thanks" "oh ok cool, I'll remember in the future."
Likewise, "hey did you like his idea?" "Oh actually I'm a they/them" "oh ok, I'll remember in the future."
This is a wonderfully put together comprehensive and informative reply. Thank you :)
Trans woman here. Your pronouns are he/him unless you’d rather be addressed with other ones. There’s multiple ways to handle exchanging them but one of the popular strategies is look at how a person is presenting, how gendered their name is, etc and if it seems pretty strongly leaning one way you can guess otherwise give your pronouns and they give theirs in return. At least that’s what I do.
I'm not the op, but like them im a cishet male. is it useful (to the movement, to non cishet, to LGBTQ+ people in general) to adopt pronouns other than what would be expected, perhaps to normalise them in much the same way that "partner" has been?
or would that generally be regarded as, well, something akin to cultural appropriation? or as malicious adoption, like "i identify as an attack helicopter"?
It's not appropriation, but if you don't want to be called "xe/xem" then for crap's sake don't ask people to!
well, I mean, it's no skin off my neck either way. I have no problem with being he/him, but I certainly wouldn't be offended be xe/xem (or for that matter she/her 😅 which was a mistake at least one person made during the mask mandate, when my beard wasn't so visible)
I'd just like to do what I can to make life easier for those who are faced with more everyday difficulties than I am, especially when it costs me so little.
It's none of those things.
It's more akin to pretending your name is Matt even though your name is Tom. You're not going to offend anyone, and if it turns out that Matt feels right for you, then go for it, you're Matt now. But if you're not Matt, and don't feel like Matt, then calling yourself Matt won't achieve much for you or anyone else.
Thank u that makes sense.
I too, am a straight male. It's actually pretty easy.
It might be a bit of a faux pas when addressing someone as he/him when they prefer something else. Simply, if the mistake is made, they'll correct your assumption (I'm sure they get it all the time, it's not that big of a deal), and tell you their pronouns. Then it's your task, socially, to respect their wish to be referred to by their pronouns. It might seem awkward to refer to someone directly as "they" or "them", but it is grammatically correct, it just sounds awkward to our brains because it's so rarely used as a singular direct pronoun.... direct in the way that you're talking to, or in the presence of that person... but it's perfectly fine and preferred by your friend/colleague/acquaintance or whatever.
For yourself, if you're commonly and most comfortably referred to as he/him, then you have two options: 1. ignore it, and people will assume, or 2. put "he/him" in things like your bio/email signature/about me pages and leave it at that. It doesn't require qualification or context, like "my pronouns are" or something like that, just "he/him" alone in your bio is enough to let people know what you are comfortable with.
Personally, I don't do anything, I let people assume, because I'm unbothered if someone refers to me as he/him/she/her/they/them. All pronouns for me are fine. I'm most commonly referred to as he/him because it's the historically "correct" pronouns, but pronouns are more or less irrelevant to me.
And yes, people do, in fact, prefer they/them. I've met a few, and it feels awkward at first to say "they"/"them", but you get used to it.
Pro tip: everyone is they/them until otherwise stated. It sounds counterintuitive until you look at the example of the unknown stranger. You see a jacket left on the back of the a chair, and wonder if the stranger will return. You ask a person nearby, “Do you know who this belongs to? When are they coming back?”
English has always used neutral pronouns for someone unknown to you. We constantly make assumptions about gender based on appearance, and cis people take for granted that our outward appearance matches their gender. My best take on being an ally and inclusive is to default to gender neutral pronouns until someone states it or corrects you.
Yep, they/them is the most simple and efficient solution.
You kind of don't have to think about it this much. Someone who cares will tell you their preferred pronouns, in which case you'd say he/him then move on with your day
If that's their preferred pronoun
Yes, basically yours are he/him since you don't identify as a different gender.
You only tell people if asked. No one will ask, because there isn't any ambiguity about your gender identity. If you'd like, I've seen many straight cisgendered men put he/him in their profiles as support for the community.
Use your best judgement, most people will go by the gender you assume. If someone corrects you, apologize and use the correct pronouns from then on.
I have one friend that transitioned. She's just a she now. Simple as that.
I have another friend that changed their name. The group I was with was confused on their pronouns, so I just asked them and they told me. Asking what they are shows that you respect them and their decisions.
If you respect people and use the pronouns they request, you shouldn't go wrong.
Outside the internet no-one really cares. Inside the Internet only certain bubbles care.
And one of the best parts of online discussions is that they are not biased by how you look, just what you write :)
I don't know if it would be any better rating myself based on looks instead of my writing :D
But yes, that's a great thing. Everyone in the Internet is just an entity addressed by the nickname. There is no need for gender or pronouns.
I wouldn't ask someone their pronouns as a conversation opener because it makes some folks uncomfortable. For example a trans person might wonder something like "Do they ask that of everybody? Do I not pass?" if "passing" is something they care about.
It's better to just correct mistakes when you make them. It's also just something you'll pick up automatically talking with people they know, and like here where the hypothetical person's pronouns are ambiguous you can fall back to they. And when taking to the person themselves you are going to be using you anyway.
Its quite important that you remember what the late Michael Jacksons pronouns were. They were He/He
Most people aren’t going to ask about your pronouns if you present in a traditionally gendered way. If someone tells you their pronouns I think it’s polite to tell them yours too even if you think it’s obvious. It sounds like the way you’ve described yourself that your pronouns are he/him. If you find yourself around a group of queer/trans folks it would probably be contextually appropriate for you to introduce yourself as “My name is and I use he/him.” If you want to go above and beyond and do that all the time nobody will fault you that would benefit or appreciate that information. Some people may be confused or make an assumption but if you want to be an ally that can include taking the brunt of some of those conversations and teaching people why you’re doing it. Makes it more normalized.
You are pretty much always welcome to ask someone’s pronouns if you are unsure. Most trans/non binary folks will appreciate you asking because unfortunately there are a lot of cis hetero men that wouldn’t extend that courtesy or demonstrate that they’re accepting and open like that. As long as you’re respectful just ask “Hey, name, what are your pronouns? Mine are he/him.” and that will be more than sufficient. If you mess up after that do not apologize. Instead, thank them, restate your sentence using the correct pronouns, and move on. Don’t make it a huge ordeal and fall over yourself apologizing. Saying you’re sorry in that situation puts the misgendered person in the position of having to say “it’s okay” when it’s not. Thanking them demonstrates you’re aware that you made a mistake and shows that you are appreciative and trying to learn and do better.
For example: You: “He loves to skateboard.” Other person “they” You: “Right! Thank you. They love to skateboard.” then continue the rest of what you were saying.
Online can be tricky. You only really need to gender someone if they gender themselves. Everyone to me online is they until I see evidence otherwise. It makes your life easier to just be as neutral as possible.
There are definitely people out there that use unconventional pronouns. I’ve only met a few that use something other than they/them but they’re out there. It’s not just a fad or for inclusivity for the sake of it, it’s just rare. In fact there are probably people you’ve met that use they/them but they may not have been comfortable telling you that. It’s understandable, but I think it says a lot about your character that you’re curious and want to do the right thing. Thanks for asking!
Getting someone's pronouns wrong once really isn't too big of a deal. What's more important is how you react to being corrected and using what they ask you to going forward.
I still don't know a good way to ask people their pronouns. Or rather I haven't had to do it often so I don't have much practice still so I still feel weird. Sometimes I get nervous that asking someone their pronouns might even make them feel like they don't pass as the gender they want to present as. I've talked about this with people and the advice I've been given is that the best way to do it is to introduce yourself with your own pronouns. I still haven't really had much opportunity to do it so not sure how to make it flow conversationally but the idea is that you're giving everyone the opportunity to do the same plus it lets them know that you won't react poorly to hearing someone tell you their pronouns.
I've really only met one person who prefers they/them and a couple of she/they folks. The trans people I have met all pass well enough in my brain that I don't have to consciously try to use the correct pronoun. It just takes some effort to get used to.
Back in, say, 2016 or so there was a meme about "did you just assume my gender?" It was always a caricature and it seems like most people either want you to assume it or are okay if you get it wrong so long as you correct yourself once they correct you.
Your pronouns are whatever you would like to be referred to. Generally someone would either correct you or you would hear the right ones during conversation to learn someone else's. If they outwardly present as a specific gender then I would normally assume (or default to they/them) and just apologize and correct if someone corrects me. Most normal people will take such an interaction in stride without further thought.
In terms of online, people often add it to their profile so you know, or to indicate to others that you respect their choice of pronouns.
Watch Princess Bride. Perfect that "as you wish". With genuine sincerity.
Perfect. You've had a fun movie experience (Inconceivable!) and you now know the perfect way to respond to someone who has asked you or corrected you regarding pronouns.
From what I've seen so far pronouns are never in question irl although the circles I'm in there are not into that topic and online everyone who sees it as important has their own somewhere in their status or bio or whatever.
Putting them in your profile as a cis person really helps normalize it. So if you want to take another step into ally-dom add em in places like zoom meetings etc.
Personally, I use they/them until told otherwise. It makes sure I don't offend anyone that way.
Personally, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Use what you think is appropriate. If you're unsure, use they/them; if they correct you, adjust accordingly. If you want to be most accommodating, default to they/them for everyone you meet unless they correct you or you learn otherwise. If you'd like others to feel more comfortable providing pronouns, providing your own - even if you believe it is obvious - can be a way to help normalize it for others.
I can’t imagine asking someone, that feels so rude. I just use they/them for most people. I would worry that asking would set any transphobes off while also being a tiny kernel of “I don’t pass” to trans people.
People will sometimes introduce themselves with pronouns, or sometimes wear little badges with them.
There are definitely people IRL who don't use the pronouns one might guess by looking at them. I haven't met many (any?) people who go by neopronouns, but they are around the Internet.
You can often just guess pronouns for people, but if you can't read the gender someone is presenting (is your new friend rocking a kilt, sports bra, and enormous beard?) it might be polite to ask, and/or to use "they" until you get the right one.
You don't have to want people to call you he/him just because you are a man. But he/him is overwhelmingly popular with men, so it's a fine choice.
If there is a field for pronouns, and you want people to know yours instead of them having to guess, you should put yours in there. The other reason to put pronouns in, even if people are likely to guess right, is to exercise the field for the people who often get guessed wrong.
If I’m asked then I say my pronoun is his royal highness.
I call others by their cis gender unless either it’s obvious like wearing a dress or corrected. People can choose how they want to be addressed but shouldn’t expect me to know lol.
One extra note on using they them when you don’t know: No, I’m going to assume that the person is not in the 2% of people that look like one gender and aren’t.
Pronouns are just your preference for what you should be referred to. If you don't provide them people will assume. The logic is that if only people who want to use specific pronouns suggest them, you are essentially outing yourself so even if you associate with your birth pronouns, it's polite to present them so it's less awkward for others.
The actual use is more awkward. The expected use is that you use it when the person in question is discussed but a pronoun isn't really used unless that person is not around so again it seems to just be a polite way to present yourself.
For added context a good use case of announcing pronouns would be a research paper where someone would be described to another person Edit: Ive been made aware about another obvious use case. Talking to people online where you might not have a way to identify any other way
You can normalize preferred pronouns by declaring them when you introduce yourself. Eg. I’m Barry and my pronouns are he/him. That’s being a good ally.
If you get someone’s pronoun wrong, it’s no big deal as long as you don’t keep pushing it. They can correct you and you should just use their pronoun after. The most important thing is to use the correct pronoun once told.
You can also ask if a person you have just met has preferred pronouns.
If I've never heard anyone else use a specific pronoun for someone new or I otherwise don't know, I try to use they/them. Otherwise I use what others do.
And if someone does let you know that a person/themselves prefer a specific one, always say thanks (you can't be sorry for something you didn't know!) and do your best to remember for next time.
I also try to use genderless terms like "folks" or just "everyone" instead of "guys"
I'll try to pick up that habit. Thank you. That's a good suggestion.
I think at some point language as a whole will shift. Most languages have had a concept of masculine/feminine and differentiating between genders for most if not all of their history. This seems pretty weird as a concept in modern times since it serves no real benefit. If we were to develop a language from scratch today I don’t think it would have such features.
Its going to take a pretty long time (hundreds of years) but language is constantly evolving. I think it will get there. In the meantime things are going to remain at least a little confusing.
I have a few transgender friends and its still a bit if a mental hurdle to see them as who they want to be identified as sometimes. I sometimes slip up and will call them by their old name or use the wrong pronoun. It’s never intentional of course, but sometimes my mental auto-correct isn’t working at full capacity. If I meet the person post-transition then its never really a problem as I always see them as that gender.
If you want them to be.
A decent social cue to use would be if someone has mistakenly used one of the 'default' pronouns (he/him or she/her). Just be polite and understanding about it.
You don't know what you don't know. The only people who would give you shit before you could have reasonably known would be, frankly, someone looking for drama/a fight. Treat those people accordingly.
It is worth keeping in mind that we are talking about a relatively small crowd of people that identify as non-binary or use non-standard pronouns. It is pushed mainly because it prevents exclusion for these people and honestly it costs nothing anyway.
It's also handy for the trans crowd, as although they may use standard pronouns, they might not be the ones they currently appear as.
Honestly, just try and avoid aggressively using gendered pronouns as the default. It's not the end of the world if you do, but if you just stick with using they/them and names until you've had a chance to pick up on the social cues, you'll be fine. And if it's in a situation where no one knows anyone else, and where the social cues aren't giving you the answer, then yeah, that's the time to lead with your name and pronouns.
But none of it's a big issue. Trans folk feel it when you get it wrong. We notice, but we also understand that sometimes mistakes happen, especially in a society that has taught everyone to associate pronouns and assumed gender. What's important isn't that you get it right every time, what's important is that you pay attention when you get it wrong, and do your best to get it right from then on.
I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.
answering your questions as best I can (I'm a straight male too) in order:
First off, thanks for asking and wanting to be more inclusive! :)
For your pronouns, you decide. If you typically go by "he/him" you can keep doing that, it's up to you.
Depending on the setting, people around you might all introduce themselves with their prefered pronouns, you can introduce yourself with your pronouns if you wish to whenever though.
Similar to how you might tell people a different name you prefer to go by. So if your given name was Nicholas but you prefere to go by "Nick," you might introduce yourself like, "Nice to meet you, I'm Nicholas, but just call me Nick." likewise, you can say something like, "Nice to meet you, I'm Nick, He/Him"
Online, it's fairly common now to have your pronouns in your profile or bio. Again, it's up to you if you want to put them in your bio or not. Some sites have actual places in the sign up screen or profile page to place your pronouns, it depends on the site/software.
It's rare for people to get offended IRL if you unintentionally mis-gender them. Most people will correct you politely in the same way they might if you called them by an incorrect name. So if you said, "Hey Nicholas, how are your classes going this semester?" they might say, "Oh, you can just call me Nick. Classes are going well so far, how about yours?"
Often people that know them will correct you politely too if you don't know and used the wrong pronouns. I've had it happen a few times over the years and everybody has always been very polite about it. I just quickly say, "oh sorry, my bad." and then just make sure to remember their pronouns going forward.
I personally have some family and friends that use they/them vs she/her or he/him. It's a thing for sure, we all support them and their pronouns. It's not very tough to get used to, and as long as you correct yourself if you make a mistake, nobody will be hurt. It's fundamentally about loving them and being inclusive and supportive.
Thank you for the comment I added he/him to my bio. Not sure if it's in the right place.
No prob, cool deal!
Your pronouns are the ones you want to be referred to as, its that simple. So yeah, he/him if thats what you want people to use.
As for gender neutral pronouns, I just use them by default for everyone, especially on the internet when you have no idea who you are talking to as it is all anonymous (unless they have specified their pronouns in their bio/profile of course)
But overall you just get in the habit of using "they/them" unless explicitly you know their gender.
Once you get in the habit of it, it becomes more natural and you stop thinking about it.
Thats pretty much all there is to it, its quite simple and people who moan and complain about gender stuff are either:
Lazy, and dont want to put in the 1% of effort it requires to not be shitty
Really just bigoted but cant admit it out loud, so they complain about such things as a dog whistle to other bigots
Are extremely misinformed about what is expected of them. They seriously think the real world is out to get them, and that if they misgender someone they'll get attacked for it (in reality maybe 1 person coughs uncomfortably and they get informed as an aside awkwardly). Non zero chance these folks also think vaccines cause autism and 5G causes cancer.
Or... hear me out... this is insanity being given a voice and should be pushed back against, like so many other unhealthy things.
Yep, that does in fact sum it up
No idea wtf you are talking about, but you sound like someone in section 2 or 3.
But Ill just quote you, yourself, from something you wrote 6 days ago:
While you were referring to people using common phrases entirely wrong, I think it applies to what you have written here.
There is nothing unhealthy about being grammatically correct. There is nothing new about this either. The pronouns They/Them are ancient as hell and have been a part of the English lexicon for centuries. It is not conceptually a remotely novel idea to use gender neutral pronouns in a gender neutral way.
Full stop, its that simple. There is nothing political, social, or whatever about using they/them.
It is purely grammatically correct, and always has been.
Consider this
Completely subtract the whole trans thing away, all recent kerfuffle, and just consider this very simple scenario that is not anything new, and is grammatically an occurrence that would have happened even hundreds of years ago.
Imagine you have discovered in a public place a personal belonging of someone, it is clearly valuable and has initials on it. You dont know the person's name, and you don't know who they are. You definitely do not know the person's gender.
Now, answer me this simple question: Would or would not the following statement aloud, even hundreds of years ago, be grammatically correct English?
"Someone lost their belonging! We should get it back to them, they probably miss it!"
Note how in this case we are still using Gender Neutral Pronouns, because we do not know the person's gender
Even hundreds of years ago, this would have been absolutely normal to say and grammatically correct. Gender Neutral Pronouns were in use in even extremely old books you can still find and read today.
Can we not dig up people's comment history to win arguments? That's kinda toxic.
If you dont like people using your own words against you, don't post it on the internet where the entire world can see it.
What, exactly, is toxic about holding someone to their own word?
What is toxic, precisely, about pointing out how a persons own statement mere days ago directly contradicts their current stance now?
If highlighting a persons inconsistencies and self contradictions is toxic, then so I shall be. I have zero issue with calling people out on their bullshit though.
Don't like it? Stop posting on the public of the internet on a forum where your words will be marked down for the rest of history (or at least, until Lemmy instances all suddenly stop being used, which likely won't be anytime soon)
There's a basic expectation, when you make an argument on a public forum, that it'll be judged on the content of the argument, not on who posted it. If you want to look through their history to see if they're a troll, and then just ignore them if they are, there's nothing wrong with that.
What you did was say "you're stupid and lazy," but for no good reason, you used that guy's own words to say it. That was entirely unnecessary. It didn't prove any inconsistency, it just proved that, like many people on Lemmy, the guy thinks a lot of people are dumb.
What is non-toxic about using someone's own words from past threads to insult them when you already have enough of a text wall to make your point?
Extremely reductive and explains why you viewed it as toxic.
That is not what I said, at all. You have focused on the wrong parts of what I quoted, and ignored the context of my statements surrounding the quote.
If you read what I wrote, you should see that was not what I said at all.
So yeah, I guess if you quickly skim over what I wrote, not really reading it much, focus on the quote I called out, and assume there is some sort of insult buried in their to be dredged up and squint your eye's hard enough, you can draw such a conclusion.
But I'd recommend go back and read what I wrote instead.
I already think you are off your rockers. Seeing that much text and the bits of glanced at confirmed it.
Write more essays to support clear unnecessary complexity in langauage. But know this: only people drinking the same Kool aid as you will read that much nonsense.
So, you're entire response effectively boils down to:
"Rather than actually read what someone has written, I am going to choose ignorance and make assumptions about what the text contains so as to avoid the possibility I may have to question my own viewpoint"
Look mate, if you wanna ignore what people say and not even bother to read it, out of fear that you might possibly learn something new, that's on you.
But later in life, as the world begins to advance past you and every day you feel more and more left behind, remember that these moments were all the sorts of points when people offered you a hand to help you catch back up and keep pace with everyone else, and you slapped that hand away.
I can't possibly speak as to why. Willful ignorance? Fear of confronting a mistake you perhaps made? Pride? Bigotry? Hate?
Who knows.
But in the end, you probably won't bother to read any of this either.
Nothing about what I wrote above was "nonsense" or "drinking the Kool aid"
It was a fairly basic grammar lesson, covering a topic you should have learnt about in gradeschool.
The fact something as basic as the topic of how gender neutral pronouns work, something that has existed for centuries in the English Lexicon, has produced such a response from you as to say I am "off my rocker", is fascinating... and sad.
I don't really know how to approach the concept of someone being informed that the words "They" "Them" and "Their" have been around for a long long time, caused them to respond with "you are off your rockers"
Mostly just makes me sad to see how deeply your school system has done you a disservice, and failed you. Shame really.
Chill dude, seriously.
Don't ask for other people to identify you, please.
I find the use of the term guys exclusive.
What do you mean
u/t3hgrl on reddit:
I don't. Plenty of times said "what are you guys doing?" to a group of people which did not include men. I have been addressed the same way plenty, despite being cis female. Possibly it's different in other countries, but on the east coast of nsw "guys" is gender neutral.
It's insane, literally, to care about this. Making language more complex than its simplicity of expression needs to be is insane.
Stop buying into this you loons.
I hate you