My hot take on the Brave browser
Old man alert. Nerd alert. EXTREME snoozefest alert. You've been warned, continue reading at your own peril!
originally posted in /c/technology but was removed quickly, presumably because it's not considered a tech article or news. This is probably the better fit anyhow
For those who aren't familiar with the Brave browser, its history and controversies, or Gecko engine vs. Chromium engine (and loosely, Webkit), it's probably worth reading up on first. I'm writing this with the assumption that you know all of this stuff, because otherwise this post would be an even longer novel than it already is.
Brave recently released a paid version of their browser called Brave Origin which strips out a bunch of "features" like web3, AI, crypto, telemetry, etc.
It has a dedicated installer separate from the normal browser, except on mobile where the features can be batch disabled after verifying your license. You can also do it that way on the desktop version if you want to. Apparently a standalone android Origin app may be in the works, and the licensing system does seem to be relatively privacy preserving and not overly restrictive.
It's pretty damn expensive (except for Linux where it's free). And I must say that I feel like an outlier, because I strongly approve of this release and the direction I'm seeing the company take.
Let me state these right now:
- Brave's controversies are real and they were completely unacceptable and they are a permanent mark on their reputation. It's no wonder many distrust them.
- I'm fully aware that this still indirectly utilizes Google's work, and that Google creates open source projects, pumps a ton of money into them, gets a ton of contributers on board, and then starts introducing proprietary blobs which handicaps competition while effectively squeezing free work and investment out of others.
- I love FOSS with all my heart.
- I could add a bunch of disclaimers but I'll address them if I see something in the comments.
In a perfect world I would hate Brave's decision. In our current reality I think it's about the best move they could've made as a for-profit company outside of just creating their own browser engine. But there's a reason there are so few options for engines right now, and it's because it's really fucking complex to make one and it takes a fuckload of time, money, and resources. When somebody develops a genuine engine contender, I'll need to circle back.
Many of us use Firefox (or FF fork) with extensions. Many use ungoogled Chromium or other Chromoum forks. Obviously totally fine.
But there's a few issues with the current browser space, as I see them.
First is that the reality is, much of the web now treats Chrome (rather, the Chromium engine) as a first-class citizen. Some sites run significantly faster or more reliably on Chromium. Some sites require Chromium to fully function. For example, want to use the GrapheneOS web installer? You need a Chromium-based browser. Chromium has lots of features under the hood that the modern web utilizes. If this has never been a consideration for you, then this particular point is moot.
Second is that data harvesting and tracking is becoming wayyy more advanced than even some techies might know about - and let's be real, it's becoming pretty fucking exhausting to keep up with the growing pile of bullshit being thrown our way. It's also becoming harder and harder to stop. In both Gecko and Chromium you can, to varying degrees, install extensions, use browser forks, adjust settings, etc. to prevent much or even all of this. But the absolutely unfathomable amount of money being poured into violating your privacy needs hard, sustained, expensive work to fight in meaningful and new ways. One recent example I read about is brave implementing a new GPU anti-fingerprinting measure which is something I hadn't even considered before.
Third is that the Internet of today is just straight-up busted. Yes there are super cool projects in the works such as I2P that are trying to change that. But they're not reaching mass adoption any time soon. Most people can't even bother trying to leave for places like Lemmy and that's much less friction than I2P. I absolutely am not defeatist, and I fight this shit like the plague it is, but we also need to live our lives.
Fourth is that the way we use the internet varies. There's a lot of things we could do to make sure we're always maximally protected, but usually we find a balance. Stuff we daily drive, stuff we use when there's a specific need, stuff we're forced to use. If you're hardcore enough to do things to the max at all times then you don't even need to read this - you can browse in Mullvad Browser with (or without) a VPN or the Tor Browser, and supplement with OS and hardware privacy measures, etc... and you're likely better protected for it. But for me, and I suspect for many others, in typical daily use we want the right balance of speed, usability, privacy, and security.
Those "features" that brave bundles in are really shitty. But the mass market time and time again shows they'll put up with a lot of bullshit. And for most people you can just manually toggle the majority of these things off in the main browser for free, and it doesn't take more than a few minutes. These features, like it or not, pull in a lot more money than what most non-profits get when solely relying on donations. Hell, one of the huge things keeping Firefox propped up is their search engine deal with Google, not the donations.
Brave, like it or not, does provide some pretty compelling value in other places. First and foremost it's good to see people seeking out alternatives to Chrome for literally any reason. But they are admittedly super on-top of their Ad-blocking, anti-fingerprinting, other privacy features (like the shred tab button), and update cadence. They're the closest thing to a well-funded Chrome competitor that, unfortunately for our reality, runs on Chromium.
I get that it feels wrong to pay to remove features from your browser. But you know what, I'm sick of the micro transaction ad filled privacy invading bulls hit joke of an economy the internet has accepted at large. If it were up to me I would bring back freeware and shareware. Brave is the modern day WinRAR in an alternate universe where 7zip wasn't invented yet and the built in unzip still didn't support other formats.
I'm going to continue using my Gecko based browsers as I always have. But for when I want or need something from Chromium, I think Brave Origin is my new go-to. For me that's when I need certain hardware integration or I'm on a specific site, and chromium in my experience works very well with Android. One other thing I learned which to me is a definite plus, is that it was developed by the Ex-Ceo of Mozilla and creator of JavaScript (that was cool to learn, and that's one guy btw, not two).
For those who think this I'm suspiciously positive about Brave, I get it. I literally thought of brave as spyware until I read about Brave Origin. I think it's a sincere effort to correct course in a way that let's them operate at the level they need to maintain their product. For most people reading this who feel like trying Brave, they should just spend 5 minutes adjusting the browser settings. If you're clinically insane like me, and you actually resonated with this post, then maybe try it. And if you wanna buy it and chargeback or find a torrent or whatever, I don't really care.
I suppose this post is solely about Brave if we lived in a vacuum. But actually I think it's about sharing a mindset which I think can help the internet improve just a little bit, Brave or not.
Finally, let me end on a tangent about Alphabet Inc., mostly Google. That company is full of very smart sociopaths people who grabbed the internet by its collective ballsack, and while it may have felt good for a minute, they started squeezing them until you forgot what it feels like to have your balls flapping in the wind again. They made AOSP and then fucked us. They made Chromium and then fucked us. They did the heavy lifting for RCS and then fucked us. Google fucking sucks. And RIP to the word 'googol', you were robbed.
Honourable Webkit mention for Orion browser, and also their search engine Kagi which I fucking ADORE!
Tl;dr Brave Origin is alright, maybe try it, or don't.
126 replies
100%. It's almost like we haven't learned a single thing from the numerous examples of how we got here.
I try to live by that same motto - when they show you who they are, believe them. Its never been wrong, and it won't be with brave. Happily won't be part of building them up.
Them earning my trust was pretty unexpected for me as well. It's a rare thing for me to 180 on something like I did.
Hopefully my trust is not misplaced. No doubt in my mind that they've permanently lost a huge subset of customers who would actually be very interested in what they're doing otherwise.
I trust them. What are you gonna do about it? Cry and run to firefart?
Oh not satire, just a troll. Got it.
If youre willing to pay for a browser, donate that money to an OSS project that creates an actual private & secure browser.
It is insane to give money to a company like Brave for a browser that removes the stuff they deliberately packed in to their core browser to track people and make money.
At best what Brave are showing is that privately owned companies can't make private secure browsers because they are profit motivated. The only way privacy can happen is to remove the profit motive entirely.
Brave is a very secure browser with the correct settings. Grapheneos agrees with this take as well and consider it the second most secure chromium browser (though imo vanadium has it's own shortcomings in regards to AdBlock, brave shields is very effective). Read my other comment for an analysis
I wouldn't pay for it because that deliberately destroys most privacy benefits. Origin is only worth it on Linux imo. Brave mostly takes advantage of tech illiterate people so the tech literate people can secure their privacy and blend in to a larger crowd. It's not very ethical but they are the largest privacy browser as a result of being able to afford ad campaigns from this exploitation of illiteracy. I mostly dream of the day that someone forks it and makes it perfect on the backs of all their development money
Surprisingly enough when using the Origin build of brave I saw no measurable difference in fingerprinting artifacts after reviewing the list from EFF's Cover Your Tracks and browserleaks.com
Your point about the Origin build reducing privacy via a smaller user pool was a huge concern for me, so those findings were a relief.
Also yes, many will toggle settings such as 'Ask not to track' (forget the exact label), to on, or adding identifying, uncommon, and regional extensions (kinda any third party ones tbh) - believing that they're increasing their privacy but unfortunately, significantly increasing chances of successful fingerprinting.
I don't blame people, it's such a cluster fuck and the wisdom of old has drastically changed.
I haven't done a really big audit of the two yet to determine their differences in fingerprinting, but ostensibly its a different browser and has a much smaller userbase and it would be harder for you to hide your fingerprint. Linux is an even smaller subsect of a subsect and likely has only maybe a couple thousand users on Linux's Origin. If you don't care about that so much and stick to open source websites its not a very big deal if you're just trying to avoid big tech algorithms.
It is a pretty big browser at this point though. It is also generally more resilient to the shenanigans that websites pull to track you over other browsers due to their hardened containers between tabs. Firefox is a bad choice for this reason alone, the sandboxing is nearly nonexistent, even Tor Browser advises you to stick to one tab only. And for similar reasons, you should never install Brave through Flathub until Flathub-Next fixes the nested containerization issue that tampers with Chromium tab containers (170k people have done so regardless of this).
Yeah, the result was weird to me too. I've been meaning to message the devs to get a concrete answer but I've been lazy.
All the rest read, acknowledged and agreed.
(for anyone reading this in the spooky future, we're mainly discussing browser fingerprinting and other privacy technologies. Context matters, buckos)
interestingly, if your choice is to allow the stuff that calls home or pay to disable, that is illegal under the gdpr.
also the founder is still a bigot so i don't really want to give them money.
Yep, we already had a word for software that spies on you until you pay the creator—“ransomware.”
Didn't know that about the GDPR! That's pretty interesting you're right, haha. I wonder if they just don't care to officially market in the EU. From my past limited business involving the EU it was a royal pain in the ass... I'm not complaining though, it's just what you gotta comply with for the legal right to sell within it.
I'm not gonna run defense for the founder lol, you've got a reasonable position obviously.
many sites do this for cookies, no one cares about GDPR. hell, The sun is literally based in the UK and while they aren't in the EU now they still have a GDPR implementation, yet they've been doing this for years.
yup, litigation is ongoing.
Dude. This is just ransomware with better marketing.
If it spies on you until you pay the creator, that's ransomware.
I don't really think it's that simple. They currently have the best security focused AdBlock of any browser (built in rust, default to the browser, works on a higher level than ublock origin, immune to upstream changes like manifest v3, can clear persistent data for specific sites, has containerization modes for changing browser fingerprint on the fly). I'm hoping vanadium or ungoogled chromium (security nightmare btw even though it has no startup telemetry, but I do think it's an interesting project for learning purposes) eventually adds brave shields to their browsers. The default settings aren't great but the right settings config clears out all potential telemetry and phoning home.
For what it's worth, the grapheneos team agrees with me and considers brave to be the second best chromium browser after vanadium for security purposes 🤷♀️
This is a much more concise and probably more effective way to explain a good chunk of what I wrote out.
Very secure ransomware with high utility-value is still ransomware.
If it spies on you until you pay the creator, it’s ransomware.
Please look up the definition of ransomware. This type of hysterical embellishment undermines your point.
I never said it spies on you until you pay the creator. The settings can be tweaked to remove all of that nonsense with simple guides from e.g. privacyguides or similar. Firefox has the same fundamental issue, so its funny that this is some point of consternation.
Brave origin and the bloated one are open source. If you think is ramsoware, you can check the code, if you don’t have the skill look for the audit.
May I ask which browser are you using?
Keep slurping firefox turds
I don’t use Firefox, but go off
Brave owns an ad network and that’s all I need to know to never use any of their products.
There are other comparable options that have better companies behind them.
Kagi’s Orion has not given me a reason to hate them except that it isn’t open source. They don’t sell your data and they don’t serve ads.
I can use uBlock on Orion,
Yeah, totally fair. We've all got a line and that's what I hoped to make clear in my post. I'm not pro-brave per se, I just happen to align with the path I see them taking with Origin.
If they go the Bambu Labs route or something, imma dip.
kagi has abandoned orion on linux and windows, and is open sourcing their codease. so, at least it is now? hope some brave volunteer will carry on with the vision.
It’s a start! This is just the desktop browsers though. I don’t think they are opening up the mobile browsers.
Appreciate your post, nice to see people having level takes for something. I normally go through all my browser settings anyway during setup so a lot of the technical issues people were having I see as nonissue, UNLESS it gets added in during an update (where I wouldn’t notice) and is opt-out, not opt-in. It’s a good recommend for new users who aren’t super tech savvy and just need a plug and play.
That's a point I should have expanded on more as well, getting new users to something is how you either help something flourish or kill it.
Gamers moving to Linux brought tons of people and motivated money. The kernel that is Linux has good people working on it so it's improvements for everyone.
Brave seems, in my view, to be taking a sort of hybrid approach, where they're still extracting value out of most people, but allowing the more tech-savvy people to disable the shit, or pay for a build of the browser that has that shit literally omitted from the codebase. I see that as a win for tech-saavy people, and not even necessarily at the huge expense of the non-savvy people because if they were gonna use a shit browser like Chrome before then they're at least better off switching to something that natively blocks ads for them. Then the nerds can do what they do, and little Johnny can still browse for porn, but now he doesn't have ads. And that's all little Johnny ever wanted.
I'm happy with Vivaldi since over 10 Years and Zen as second, both European Browsers (Norway and Spain) which don't sell my data and my soul. Ethics respect the user and transparency are very important for me and Brave don't offer it, but shady business models. Thanks
Yeah man stick to your principles and if you've been happy with it for so long then it would be silly for you to try it anyhow.
That is the point. I tested almost all existing browsers since a quarter century now and the mencioned are the best for me and my needs. Simple philosophy, search, compare and finding something better, use it, more if it is an EU product.
Chromium-based browsers that are better than Brave:
Desktop - Helium
Android (GrapheneOS) - Vanadium
Android (Not GrapheneOS) - Titanium
Thanks! I'm all for choice. What I wouldn't agree with is calling something strictly "better".
I can't comment on Helium because I haven't used it personally, though I've heard good things.
I'll check out Cromite, never heard of it.
One thing I'll mention though is that Vanadium was built (as the GrapheneOS devs intended) with security at the forefront of design, not privacy. They're two distinct disciplines. I believe the recommendation by the devs for a more private browser is Ironfox. It's also the only browser trusted by Accrescent, which is the only officially listed app store in the base GrapheneOS app store. (so many app stores lol)
I'm still ride or die on the idea of a modern freeware vs shareware style model. Just statistically speaking Brave is taking in more cash and if they're spending it wisely, such as creating new anti-fingerprinting and Ad-blocking methods, etc., which they seem to be doing, then that's a pro in their favour. It's not strictly better or worse. It's like, I really like using free and FOSS apps, but I also have plenty of closed-source apps that I see the value in and accept that tradeoff for.
Hopefully no GrapheneOS users read this. I'm so fed up with being told: "YoU cAn'T hAvE pRiVaCy WiThOuT sEcUrItY" over and over whenever I say there may be tradeoffs.
It can be hard to discern facts from opinions nowadays because as you noted, so many people assert their opinions as fact. Especially online, and especially on modern social media.
It helps to find people and developers and communities that you trust, and compare their knowledge with whatever else you hear or read. This way, you might just be able to roam around just a little more peacefully knowing that you are secure in your understanding.
There's a lot of noise on the internet, and much of it is unfortunately not worth engaging with.
I read on the GrapheneOS forums that Cromite lags behind on updates and that Titanium is better
Never heard of Titanium, thanks!
This is because Firefox does not support WebUSB. It is not currently possible to make a version of the Graphene web installer that supports Firefox. Graphene doesn't get a say in the matter.
Ok, but why doesn't Firefox support WebUSB?
I can't find the source, but Google's LLM summary says it's because of potential security issues, which sounds plausible.
It literally does. If it doesn't work, Graphene blocks it.
I use it quite literally every day at work for embedded web tools.
I use it at home with esphome.
They are blocking based on browser signature. CalyxOS does the same thing.
Here is Mozilla saying that Firefox does not support the API that Graphene uses to flash devices. I'm not sure how you can get more definitive than that.
Well it is within the last few months and that article was last updated in July.
I don't know what to tell you, I literally use it every day on Firefox and Zen browser.
i’m on iphone currently which i know isn’t ideal but im riding this device out to its death until i make the switch to grapheneOS. that being said even with the lack of alternatives you wont catch me using brave ever, the ceo is insane, and they just had too many controversies. that 60 bucks is better spent donating to any other FOSS project.
I have tinkered with Orion. It has a lot of promise, but it is still a bit buggy. I’m all Firefox since before it was Firefox, but I respect your assessment. I’m also looking forward to Ladybird, even though it also has its fair share of controversy.
Recent Firefox has been really good to me. Vertical tabs and new design are excellent; though I don’t seem to be with the crowd in that.
One small feedback that is meant less as a correction and more in case people are curious. Chromium isn’t an engine, it is an open source browser. The Gecko / WebKit equivalent here is Blink.
The respect goes both ways!
You're right that it's not an engine, it's a codebase. I probably shouldn't have minced words there, it's just that everyone knows Chromium but I don't think most will know Blink.
Correction is appreciated. Ty!
Appreciate your post very much. I used to use Brave as my primary browser a few years back but Lemmy basically guilt-tripped me into ditching it for Firefox even though it was working perfectly fine for me. Although now I have naturally grown accustomed to Firefox forks for my daily use, it's nice to see that I'll have another viable alternative if I ever need a Chromium browser.
I'm happy to hear you appreciated it, thanks.
I get it, it's hard to broach a controversial topic or a nuanced topic online sometimes without things exploding in your face.
Lemmy seems pretty decent for giving these topics a chance if you make a sincere case and you cover your bases.
Even still it's not a guarantee. Honestly the most freeing advice (that I'm gonna give and that you didn't ask for) is to speak your mind if you wanna speak your mind. Recognizing that we're all different, that many arguments boil down to opinion, and that the up votes and down votes can't affect you - it's quite freeing.
Anyhow yeah I'd say use it if you wanna use it but I strongly recommend disabling all the shit that is there just to generate money at the very least.
I am a Firefox & forks diehard, but I need a Chromium/Webkit/Whatever based browser for a lot of corporate shit I have to access. So, I bit the bullet and bought Brave Origin. It doesn't suck. I wouldn't pick it as my main, but it's fine. Much better option than Chrome and Edge, that's for certain.
Ungoogled chromium
First thing I tried. I often get a message that it isn't supported.
That's just because Brave tells websites that you're using Chrome.
All http requests include a "user agent" where the requester tells the server what agent the user is using. requesters can specify whatever they want - it's not complex to tell the server you're using tea leaves to render the server's response.
Some web pages are designed to tell the user that their browser is not compatible, if it doesn't match a set of compatible browsers. So if you say you're rendering the page with "tea leaves" it will tell you it's not compatible because it doesn't match "chrome" or "edge" or whatever.
The outcome is - these alerts are rudimentary and not actually considering the capabilities of your browser.
I generally use librewolf but as you say some pages are just broken, so I use ungoogled chromium for those pages.
I know what user agent is, and that isn't the problem. These are web apps, and they aren't responding with a "browser not supported" error. They just either do not work, or do not work correctly. I main Librewolf and Firefox (dependent on system). All I ever use Brave Origin (Chrome and Edge before it), is to access a very small set of corporate apps I seldom use. I could spend my valuable time trying to get Chromium to work if it was going to be my main, but in this case it was just way easier to buy Brave Origin and expense it to the client that did not support Firefox.
Sure.
Yep. That's poor messaging on my part. Sometimes it gives the old not supported message (and in fact it doesn't work), other times it just doesn't work.
As with so many problems of the modern internet, the problem often comes down to Google's greasy balls leaving stains in every nook and cranny of the web.
Google is responsible for many things but I don't think this is one.
Maybe, maybe not. Google knows how to manipulate the standards used on the web. My comment wasn't really an assertion of fact as much as a dream of Google and their scummy practices dying
Totally valid use. Why is it that so many employers seem to have some system in place that somehow requires Chrome. Happened to me in the past as well.
Sad the internet trolls need so many disclaimers. For example:
I appreciate your post because I switched to Brave maybe 5+ years ago and have been very pleased. I knew of Brave origin, but I had no idea it was free for Linux?! Super good news for me then. The first thing I do on a fresh Brave install is disable all of it’s creature comforts and crypto. By the time I’m done tweaking every setting, it’s as if my browser has short-term memory loss just the way I like it. I don’t need it to remember. I have extensions and bookmarks for things I want to keep track of. For this, Brave has allowed me to say “No” in all the ways other browsers weren’t.
Yep I don't really like putting disclaimers either but the trust level on the internet is most definitely the lowest it has ever been.
Wow so you've been on that Brave train for a while, huh? And yeah that Linux move is actually part of what made me think they're being sincere in their efforts. They probably know the Linux crowd isn't putting up with bullshit. I use Linux too and I still bought it because I do use other platforms and I'm at the point where I'm voting hard with my wallet, sometimes to my own detriment lol
"Short term memory loss" is a good way to put that feature and I really love it. I wish there was a way to exclude certain sites from that though.
What's wrong with Trust On First Use?
I was using a Gecko based browser on GrapheneOS until I recently learned that all of the frequent stuttering when scrolling that I was tolerating for months was related to the browser being anything besides chromium based!
So I'm back on Brave for my main browser across platforms even though I was wanting to support the open web with a Gecko browser.
Ironfox on my GOS takes about 1-2 minutes to load a webpage. Even with a fresh install and no mods done to UBO. That's longer than Tor browser takes to load the same page. No joke, I timed several pages with a stopwatch.
Until Ironfox gets their stuff together, I'll be using Brave.
Edit: Seems Ironfox's slowness is due to their DNS resolver. I turned that off and it's quick. Later today, I'm installing another profile in Librewolf so I can sync with Ironfox and ditching Brave on my Android.
Having a real hard time believing this. I can't tell the difference between the one that ships with graphene or ironfox in terms of pages loading.
I don't care what you believe. Several people in this thread dont use Ironfox because of its slow performance.
2 minutes to load a web page?
I just went to a random sample of 5 web pages and took 1 to 3 seconds to load. And my internet isn't great either.
I am not really trying to argue with you, I am curious why some people have no issues and others do. But 2 minutes? Really? Something would have to be very wrong.
Once I changed Ironfox's DNS from Max to Default the browser runs great.
Ironfox's DNSes are slow, just disable Ironfox's internal DNS, optionally use a VPN, and you're good to go.
I'll try disabling its DNS, thanks.
Edit: I've installed Ironfox once again. This time with "Default Protection" under DNS over HTTPS. I'm surprised how fast the browser is. It might even be a tiny bit faster than Brave.
That was quite literally my exact experience, like 100% exact.
So what I'm hoping at least is that they will release an Origin build for Android so we can truly have the stuff removed rather than just disabled.
It's really kind of a shame, I tried so hard with Ironfox and eventually I noticed I just stopped opening it anymore, and that's when I had to make a choice.
Try Titanium browser - vanadium with extensions (compatible with UB origin lite).
I use it when some pages don't work on Waterfox on my underpowered redmi. It's tolerable.
I don't have a problem with Origin, since Firefox stripped of telemetry, ai, and sponsorships is something I'd be happy to pay a one time fee for even if I can disable it.
Having everything stripped from the installer by default from the official source is nice, and lot of projects don't get funding from most users. So offering something like this seems fine with me.
You don't have to pay for any of that, it's free with LibreWolf on desktop and IronFox on Android.
Still would be nice to have an option straight from Firefox available.
I agrree, it would, but I doubt that will ever happen while Google pays them exorbitant amount of money to be the default web browser.
I use LibreWolf on desktop but Ironfox is far too slow on GrapheneOS.
I just picked up a used Pixel and I've has no issues with IronFox, my partner uses it too. Did you forget to install the adblocker? Maybe enough time has passed since you last used it and it's gotten better since then?
UBO was installed. Last time I tried Ironfox was perhaps two weeks ago.
It is extremely laggy. But I have a 2017 redmi 4x with a SDM 435 and 4GB of ram (also lags on 690), so it's probably fine on anything with a SDM 855+.
If I remember, I might post an update on how it works on a SDM 8 elite.
I agree with you but just want to make sure you know that the mobile version currently only allows unlocking the origin features in the standard app rather than downloading a stripped down app, which is nearly equivalent to just disabling it manually.
So if you're gonna get it, do it for the desktop versions and to support that practice like you said. I hope they'll provide a way to download it through Obtanium or F-Droid in the future, but my gut says they're not at that level of enlightenment haha. But I could be wrong, they did make the Linux version free and that was really unexpected to me!
And cause this is the internet, lemme warn you my Spidey senses are tingling about you calling it stripped Firefox. I get what you mean, obviously, but it's the internet and even on Lemmy you're not safe from nerd-retribution
Brave is not perfect but it does objectively have some privacy features that other browsers simply don't. Like syncing devices with a passphrase (no account), and it's also the only browser I'm aware of that has and continues to develop browser fingerprinting protections.
Doesn't Firefox have fingerprinting protections which are disabled by default? LibreWolf enables them by default.
A lot of them claim this but I'm yet to see it. Most "fingerprinting protections" involve just having everyone using the same stats and trying to blend in. Brave does this by randomization instead, which is far more effective. They also just released GPU randomization. Orion claims to this day that fingerprinting resistance is impossible, which is preposterous because Brave is doing it today.
https://brave.com/privacy-updates/38-webgl-webgpu-fingerprinting-protections/
Randomisation isn't necessarily more effective, it's just a different strategy.
I think you mean Orion is saying RFP is ineffective, and whether Brave's implementation is or is not is a question of semantics.
Like most security measures, each decision is a trade off between security and usability. The Firefox / LibreWolf / TOR implementation is fine for most users:
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Fingerprinting#Terse_List
We're kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of fingerprinting, at least for now.
I was typing out my explanation but I started writing too much and I suppose if you're interested in the technical details you can
Google itlook it up.As with all this stuff, it's a bottomless pit. Are you sure you really wanna jump in?
With the greatest respect, I already know as much as I wish to on this topic and do not wish to compare our differing opinions at this time.
It was a hypothetical question posed to the readers haha
But that's a super polite way of rejecting somebody, so props for that 😂
No, it is far more effective, as I said.
Keep huffing your own farts mate.
Not my farts, they're Brave farts 💨
Indeed
That's a big part of it for me as well. I know not everyone will find value in the anti-fingerprinting stuff but I personally do. And tbh I think the fact that they're making the effort to actually develop rather than stick with the norm, which they could totally do, is pretty fucking cool.
Sometimes it's a battle of lesser evils and the referee is reality. Although I'm no longer convinced the people behind brave are an evil, per se. Not everything can be as ideal as fully open source and free software while keeping up with the times.
For example, there's a lot of encryption software out there that does the same thing as Veracrypt, but I choose Veracrypt every time because for my needs it exceeds the closed source competition and it works really fucking well.
So the pendulum swings to both sides.
It was removed from /c/technology because /c/technology isn't for discussing, learning about, or posting about technology. It's for posting about big tech companies, tech adjacent or non-tech news, politics, and their CEOs.
It's the Lemmy equivalent of reddits. It's pretty much a pile of crap.
With Brave I need an ad/paywall blocker for the browser itself
Dude I get it, I live too much of my life analyzing network traffic, blocking garbage in pi-hole. If I decide to trust, I still need to verify. Not trusting Brave, especially in its default config, is absolutely justified.
I think using Firefox or a fork, and just degoogled Chromium if you need WebUSB is a better idea.
So far I've never come across a site that doesn't work in Firefox, a rare few need the chrome mask addon enabled, but it's been awhile since I've had that happen.
Brave is shitty defaults pulled by shitty people. It's simple. I'll never understand the appeal between Zoomers and Alphas. Lack of maturity, maybe? Are they also shitty people? Beats me.
Your bigotry towards Zoomers and Alphas is pretty shitty.
Whoa first bigot attracted. Like those idiots going on about reverse racism.
Hey man, I appreciate the input but firstly I don't see how the generation of people applies in this case in any meaningful way.
I can understand being frustrated with shitty aspects of the hyper-capitalistic society many of us live in and predatory nature of the modern free-market. But if you wanna make a difference please try expressing it in a way that encourages discussion and unity, rather than dissuade it.
Per your username, I'm all for socialist vibes. My wish is more of a transition into a true socialist democracy, which isn't 'pure' socialism per se, but we're on the same team. In fact, the working class is on the same team. But man, you're not giving off socialist vibes imo, and that's the opposite effect that your username implies.
Just my thoughts.
lol, socialists don't want to accommodate capitalism but overthrow it instead
the working class potentially is on the same team but some are jailing already oppressed people in concentration camps, others are relying on that and many are egotistically snoozing through all of that and no gullible liberal talk about unity without conflict to make such unity possible is serious. Liberals shouldn't call themselves socialist.
Fight for what you believe in. I would be a hypocrite to tell you otherwise. I'm just saying, you're not likely to win any support for a cause if you aren't able to show people that they'll be more accepted within a new system.
It's fine to disagree on semantics or ideology but you need the people who are fed-up to be on your side if you want the numbers to create any sort of viable movement.
I get it, it's frustrating, it's slow, there's infighting. It's not to say your approach is wrong, just that the environment we were thrust into requires quite a bit more tolerance and understanding of those outside of your ideology, that is, if you want to do something more than argue with each other.
Maybe look for your First People first before preaching on neoliberal conformity on others. 🙄
I do advocate for them. Not that I am obligated to prove it to you on any way, but here's a link of me commenting on Lemmy 8 months ago, in direct relation to First Nations peoples.
You can't build good faith with people when you don't give good faith arguments. Perhaps it's worth contemplating if you're really trying to change something in the world, or if you're just frustrated and venting on the internet.
Either is fine, but let's be honest with ourselves. Your comments lead me to believe you may be in the latter group.
Pay premium for a privacy focused browser? No.
I'd rather build my own browser from scratch. What fucking world do we live in?
Actually, I'd rather never browse the internet again.
Never browsing the internet again is the real secret to happiness. It's about a stone's throw away for many of us who care deeply about it.
Legit question, I just don't know: How did they ruin Chromium? I use Firefox on the daily and Chromium for webserial but if Chromium is also cancer I'm willing to try alternatives.
So Google is really clever and sneaky with their bullshit.
With Chromium they created this open standard that blew people away when it launched. If it performs better and has more features then why not use it right? Why not develop for Chromium too! So that's what people did and continue to do.
But people are essentially building and using houses on a foundation that Google can and will and has changed on a whim. Google also makes their own houses on the foundation, but Google's houses have fancy gold plated toilets. Now everyone wants gold plated toilets, after all, they're all built on the same foundation right? But Google keeps their toilet making techniques a secret so nobody else can use them. And soon the value of the stupid ceramic toilet houses starts to fall and tenants move out.
A real world, recent example. Ad-blocking on Chrome worked just as well as Firefox for the longest time, until Google decided to change their extension system from Manifest v2 to Manifest v3. They introduced it with lots of nice improvements, but lo and behold that also happened to reduce functionality of adblockers. Every single developer now is forced to either bow down to their changes or try to make a fork which shoehorns support back in. But once they do that, it's a ton of burden and maintenance for whatever developers took on the challenge, on top of that, you're now fighting with upstream changes and instability. This is one example, they can do much worse and I'm sure they would if they weren't terrified of an antitrust lawsuit.
Google is legit full of some of the sneakiest snakes I've ever seen.
Edit: I should point out that solutions are moving to another browser engine (Gecko is the most extensible), or using a Chromium fork that upkeeps their own system that's equally as good. That's part of why I am liking Brave, because they do have the money and resources to pour into building their own system despite the wrath of Google.
Oh and bonus is that the other home builders start to try appeasing Google in hopes that they'll give them access to those shiny gold toilets.
I was using Firefox for 5 years and lately since few months, sites load terribly slower than on Brave Origin or Vanilla Chromium in Arch Linux for me atleast. A website that loads instantly on Brave takes like 5-10s on Firefox.
I tried reinstalling Firefox, tried a very fresh install w/o any extensions or my bookmarks but it still felt very slow on two different devices and networks as well. Tried disabling ipv6—which improved the loading speeds by about 1-2s. But then I pulled the plug and completely switched to Brave Origin. TBH I love it. It's snappy AF. Has none of Vanilla Bravd BS and has an adblocker as strong UBO.
Where do you find websites that takes 5-10 seconds for you to load on Firefox?
Neither of the news sites, forums or self-hosted webuis I use take close to that. Even when I set disable caching and reload something heavy like the steam storepage I can't get the browser to take 5 seconds to load it in.
How do you feel about being a part of giving Google control over the whole browser ecosystem by using a Chromium based browser?
Literally all websites are slower NGL. I wish that wasn’t happening but it is since the last few months and doesn’t seem to be getting better. I can’t use it in this state. I tried to find what’s wrong—using it in default state, disable and enable ipv6, enable and disable DoH, change my router DNS, change my Laptop DNS, Enable and Disable Extensions, Disable and Enable HW Acceleration, use various user.js (betterfox and arkenfox both), reinstalled Firefox with a fresh profile—but it’s still happening. I tried Librewolf as well and still the same issue. I can’t even submit an issue because there is nothing conclusive of what’s happening here. The only thing that is left is to reinstall the OS on both my systems. Switching to Brave Origin is much easier and fixes all the issues for me. So as much as I would like to use Firefox (because I love everything about it and want to support something other than chromium), it not usable for me especially when I have a relatively fast internet (250mbps) and strong and recent hardware.
What part of a site loading is it that slows down to 5 to 10 seconds for you? What does the Network tab show?
Sorry I was out for a vacation. Here you go.
This is firefox
This is Brave origin.
Even though some things do load after 5s in brave as well, a website is instantly usable on Brave while Firefox takes the whole time to load it. The Firefox install above is a fresh one with just uBlock Origin. On Brave I have set it up to clear cache and browsing history on exit so nothing is being loaded from cache. No login used for the website tested in both browsers. On reddit as well usually, it takes Firefox around 12s to actually for it to be usable. While for Brave it is usually around 8s.
Interesting and it seems to be accounts.google.com that is the culprit, no idea why that loads on indianexpress.com though. It'd be interesting to see if it's the common denominator in slowing your firefox down.
accounts.google.com is probably for login with google box. If you disable the ad blocker, it tells you to login with google in the right corner.
My loading of indianexpress.com is a lot faster in firefox than yours, the main thing is that the account.google.com loads normally for me:
Timings for the .js from account.google.com:
Alright I got somewhere. It's the DNS. Specifically my Adguard Home setup. By default it uses rate limiting of 20 requests per client. I removed it. And now Firefox is loading as fast as Brave was loading it previously.
Although websites on Brave are still loading much faster, Firefox is now pretty usable. A few hundred ms difference is fine for me. The slowdown started happening since Firefox 150ish so probably something changed then that affected Firefox but Chromium based browsers worked fine. IDK what but for now removing rate limiting works for me. Hopefully my router won't crash because of this. Thanks for the help. Also if I use Firefox DoH with custom Controld endpoint, everything loads at lightening speed. But I can't use it as there are DNS rewrites in my Adguard Home which allows me to access my services w/o typing the IP all the time.
Nicely done! :)
I'm not reading all that. Brave rocks. Firefox gargle balls. At least Brave has the guts to innovate and don't sell out their holes to Google like Firefox.
Use what you wanna use my man, but turning browsers into the equivalent of the 'console wars' that people get swept up in is a bit silly.
At the very least let me know why you think Firefox gargles balls in a bit more detail and how Brave by comparison refuses to gargle.
That would be a bit more insightful for us all!
Lol is this satire?
Troll account