also, "long wait times", at least in Canada, are often a result of gutting being done to the healthcare system at the provincial level by conservative governments in an effort to convince people to privatize, and some idiots always fuckin fall for it.
It isn't always exaggerated but generally lacks context.
Some types of surgery can have long wait times if they are non life threatening but can drastically improve quality of life which is very very frustrating.
The thing they ignore though is that most people waiting could not afford the surgery at all in a private system. Most people in Canada live very close to the border and American health care is more than willing to take their money.
It isn't perfect and we should definitely be investing more in and trying to address problems but I don't see how things like American HMOs are anything more then rent seekers.
I never meant to imply that there can't be long wait times, just that they are, in my opinion, exaggerated. I have had to wait for things as well, but having experienced health care in the USA, I could not really complain.
Canada definitely could improved, but it's still night and day better than what's south of the border, imho.
I just said that I believe it could be improved. My bar is higher than the USA, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm thankful that it's better than the USA, having experienced both. They are not mutually exclusive sentiments.
The only counter-argument I have to that is the common refrain among many politicians who used to point to the American system as superior, which has only really started to focus on some of the cheaper options per capita in Europe in the last decade.
Yep, same here. The ÖVP in Austria (a bit like "Republicans light" in the US, with a conservative view regarding social services and neolibs regarding economy, while mostly not being fucking grifters) are always trying to cut finances to the public health system, which makes the situation worse, and then they use the shit they caused as an argument to cut more services.
Good thing is, the old parties are on their way out because their voter base is dying out. Bad news is that instead of them we have a far-right party scooping up their voters. The Socialist Party, which is one of the old parties, is occupied with infighting similar to the democrats in the US between the left wing and the centrists, with the expected loss of voters because of the old people dying and the party utterly being disconnected from the younger generations, and the greens are occupying themselves with culture wars bullshit instead of trying to help the populace out. The communists are achieving local successes where they work to make sure that housing is affordable, while being utterly unvoteable on the federal level. And then we have a pure neolib party (NEOs) which is ÖVP light.
All of this makes me fear for the social peace in the country.
The CDU/CSU, our conservatives, huffed a bit too much of their own supply and had brilliant ideas like reducing the public deficit by reducing infrastructure spending to zero. When that somehow started costing them votes after bridges started to collapse they decided to lean wholesale into the culture war bullshit by "engaging" the hard-right AfD by copying their rhetoric wholesale. Oddly enough, all this does is legitimize the AfD and drive voters to them. Currently the chancellor is busy trying to find out how unpopular he can get before the government collapses, championing policies that would've instantly ended careers twenty years ago. (And yes, this includes cuts to the healthcare system and "cost-saving" measures that everyone agrees will drive up costs.)
The SPD, our social democrats, have essentially purged all of their social democrat members and are now a business-friendly rump party with no discernible character or platform. The Greens have softened their ecological policies to the point of pointlessness. The FDP, our libertarians, were always ready to harm the country to help the rich; the last time they were in office they were so blatant about it they destroyed the governing coalition and are now deeply despised.
The one traditional party that somehow moved in a positive direction was The Left, whose Russia fanboys tried to spin off into their own populist party, which then fizzled out. This, and the fact that they still somewhat care about what the label says, makes them the only ones who haven't fully enhsittified themselves.
Then there's the new boy on the block, the AfD. Positioning themselves as a moderate conservative worker's party, their actual policies only don't declare foreigners (and foreign-looking people) to be second-class humans because that spot is already reserved for Germans who aren't independently wealthy. Foreigners are somewhere below that. Due to an inexplicably effective social media presence and the general fecklessness of the established parties they're rising meteorically.
Notably, the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution only hasn't designated the AfD as a known extremist organization because they immediately sued and the designation must be withheld until the suit is resolved. Several federal countries have designated them as threats to the democratic order. The CDU/CSU insists the can't possibly be banned, at first because they were too small, now because they're too big.
There are smaller parties that aren't yet self-serving empty husks but they generally don't have any chance of making it past the 5% hurdle because they don't have the weight of tradition or the equivalent of a billion Euro advertising budget behind them. I personally am somewhat partial towards the Humanists because they cite scientific papers for each of their policies. It's a nice break from the usual "our way is the only correct way because we say so". Too bad they'll probably never make it big.
At least you guys have Die Linke - we are sorely lacking anything of the sort, while the FPÖ (AfD for Austrians) is getting more and more public support, with the same inhuman rhetoric and the same inexplicably effective social media boost - US social media and their owners deserve the guillotine for messing up our societies.
It’s usually done under the guise of reducing taxes or reducing the size of government.
Usually done by our Republican (Conservative) Party spouting generalities like “taxes are too high”, “government is wasteful”, “private company could do better”. Somehow they always skip the part where the functionality is important and the private alternative is worse and costlier (but at least their buddies get to profit)
Apparently voters fall for it, without consideration for what is being cut or whether it really needs to be
And somehow we also keep falling for “reduce taxes” even when that only benefits the wealthy, and when that’s actually the biggest source of debt
Same in Italy, hospitals don't get enough found because the government (which is usually right wing but rarely center-left too) does not give enough money to hospitals and then (stupid) people say "look at Switzerland!! They do way better than us, we must do like 'em" or as some said a few years back "look at USA!!! With their private healthcare! They are doing good"
I once had a conversation with a coworker who was complaining that he couldn't afford to go to the Dr for a fucked up back, I brought up how most 1st world countries have health care for everyone.
Dude said " yeah fuck that, I don't want to wait to see a doctor"
Over 90% of Democrats want universal healthcare, along with over 60% of Independents and even 30%+ of Republican voters.
So, a huge majority of people in the USA want the same healthcare as Canada, UK, Japan, Poland... (huge list of dozens of civilized countries).
The Democrats have used this issue to win elections since the 1990s. The USA gives billions of dollars to people around the world, most of whom have universal healthcare themselves.
We're the wealthiest of these nations by far, but unfortunately, the wealth is top heavy, and those wealthy people are paying US reps a gigantic pile of money to keep things as they are, so that they can make even more enormous piles of money.
That's it, it's pretty simple. IF ONLY we lived in a republic with representatives that work for their constituency!
I just had to wait for 3 weeks to get a refill on my daily asthma inhaler, one and a half of them without my meds. There was some sort of supply issue with my regular one, so had to get a new one prescribed. I had to deal with going back and forth with the pharmacy, doc office, and insurance company to finally get the approved brands/prior authorizations figured out. I'm glad my asthma isn't too bad right now despite being allergy season.
I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'm guessing that folks in places with universal healthcare don't have to deal with this sort of bullshit.
Kind of. I’m in Germany (but from the US), and while it’s leagues and leagues better than the US, I recently had a similar issue. I was prescribed a daily generic medication that comes in increments of 100, which had some supply issues. The name brand version comes in increments of 30, so I had to get my prescription rewritten for 90 pills instead of 100, because they couldn’t just dispense less medication than I was prescribed.
I ended up going two days without my medication, but it was still better than in a non universal healthcare system. I used the same medication in the US, and regularly had to skip a day or two around refills (once it took over a month to actually get my refill), plus I was only able to fill one month at a time and had to pay way more. In the US, I had to pay for: a monthly doctor’s visit, a drug test to make sure I was taking my medication, and a high prescription cost ($50-$330/month, depending on whether I’d reached my deductible and whether it was a generic or not). In Germany, I pay 8.50€/month for the brand name or 10€/3 months for the generic, no cost for doctor’s visits and no required drug test.
The only reason wait tines would possibly be lower in for-profit health care is because there are fewer people in the system because more people can't afford it.
Huh, that's actually surprising but I guess explained by how expensive the degree is over there and how many people don't want to get into debt over it
I think that is the trade off. The filter of the risk is greater then the potential in reward. Which is also probably why the reward is so high for the few that do make it to there and choose that route.
For-profit healthcare has an incentive to minimize costs
Public healthcare can have incentives like less wait time …. As long as we decide to pay for it
—-
Edit: maybe I assumed too much context since everyone is reading the opposite of my intended meaning
For-profit healthcare has an incentive to [maximize profit, typically by] minimize costs [to them].
They will pay medical providers as little as they can, which increases wait times. They do not have incentives to reduce wait times
Public healthcare can have incentives like less wait time …. As long as we decide to pay for it
Without the profit motive, public healthcare can choose to pay for better service , reducing wait times. Typical approaches for similar services would be setting standards on things like the max number of patients a physician can support. They probably won’t, because Conservatives, but they could
Rather than just downvoting you, let me explain why you are getting downvoted. It's because that isn't true. For-profit healthcare will both want to increase the cost as well as decrease the cost depending on where within the chain they are and where the money comes from. Are you billing the government through medicare/medicaid? Max that shit out and stack codes. Are you the provider trying to claw money from the insurance pool? You are forced to minimize everything or risk being rejected and not paid anything for services already rendered.
This notion that our for-profit system saves money and is somehow more efficient instantly breaks down the second you compare how much we spend on the same services compared to universal or single payer systems. The USA pays approximately triple per capita for Healthcare while also receiving poorer outcomes on average.
Not only that, if our system incentivized lower prices, then why is medical tourism a thing that Americans do to other countries? Like going to Canada to buy your prescription drugs or Mexico for dental work?
If you spent even one minute looking up the cost of American Healthcare compared to other comparable countries, you would have known how false your statement was.
Medicare and medicaid can and will reject you too tbh. In any case, they'll bill the maximum they think will stick with the particular payor. Denied claims can be resubmitted with charges if necessary.
There is an incentive to lower overheads but when they can simply raise prices to compensate the incentive isn't as appealing as the simpler, easier option.
We all wait when it's something new. Once you're seen it goes at a good speed. That's still a bullshit excuse for not giving Americans what they want. There's always going to be cry babies that want to pay a chunk of their salary so let them. I think what really is the issue is they're afraid people are going to finally do what they want in life and not be tethered to a crappy job because they need healthcare. You're going to see a Renaissance people trying new things and I think it's wonderful.
The only long wait times in socialized health care are for non-critical issues, although sometimes the definition of "non-critical" can differ from what a person might expect.
I was a long term pain patient because my spine has been fucked since i was a teen, and waiting times for things like these are sometimes longer than they should be. But every time i had an emergency, service was impeccable and on par with the highest level of care you can pay for.
When would you like to see your primary care doctor? We have an appointment slot in 6 months you have no idea if you can get the day off for, but you can waitlist for an earlier appointment cancellation that you probably won't be available for either…
And your PCP will only have 5 minutes to spend with you when you do get an appointment because insurance companies have turned health care into car repair work. Physicians get paid by the job (patient), the job pays “x” time, the insurance pays the least it can per job, so the medical office crams and many jobs into the alotted time as possible so they can make money.
But you don’t have to wait in the American Health Care System.
I had a severely herniated disc to the point where I spent a good six months or so on opiates and stuck laying in bed. Was ok to walk short distances after a while so it was considered low priority for surgery. 3 year wait time, but I finally had it done and went home after a night in the hospital. The opiates were ~$12 for a month with no insurance. Was able to get the monthly prescription with a phone call and pick them up from any pharmacy.
The surgery and hospital stay cost me $0, and was given strong meds to take home for post op pain. Also free. (In Australia).
Idk if I'd have even gotten surgery in America, Luigi killed the United cunt because he was denied treatment for the same issue. Like, what's the point of insurance if there's a chance they won't even give it to you at all? And if they do you're still probably so out of pocket that you're worse off anyways.
Like yeah, I wish I'd been treated sooner. It fucking sucked and I'll have back pain for the rest of my life. But I had the option to go private and go into debt if I wanted to. Americans don't even have a choice.
I live in a country with universal healthcare. In 6 weeks I went from an ambulance to hospital, to surgery to remove a tumor from my abdomen. And for the last 3 years I've had 3 monthly CT scans and a meeting with my oncologist. It has never cost me a penny.
The waiting time has little to do with the payment and much more to do with having enough doctors.
Where I live, the universal healthcare has a guarantee for treatment within a time dependent on the illness. If the public healthcare fails to offer the treatment within that time and if you can find treatment in the private sector, the government will still pay for it.
Both the private and public hospitals are paid a fixed price by the government by the patient, so it doesn't matter for the government (and taxes) who they have to pay.
The difference is that private hospitals can make a profit by keeping their costs lower than the fixed price, while public hospitals just need to balance. There are some overhead costs in the public hospitals, that are not necessarily present in the private sector, so it's not impossible for private hospitals to make a profit without cutting down on the service. They probably still do cut as much as they can get away with, but overall they have to deliver the same safety standards and follow the same regulations. The government audits both.
Anyway, waiting time is an issue, but not because of how it's paid.
I have an appointment with a primary care physician on Friday. It's my first one since 2004. Because I usually couldn't afford insurance, and when I finally did get it, I couldn't find a doctor that was: taking new patients; covered under my insurance; and less than 50 miles away.
I moved to a new state 2 years ago and after about a year of finding a new house, having work done and finally being able to move in...in the process I borked my right knee moving stuff. Wanted to make an appt with an ortho doc.
Needed to find a new PCP, because they had to write the referral.
There was only 1 place I could find in network who was accepting new patients and didn't have a 6-month wait.
Went there, got the referral
Went to the Ortho, ordered an X-ray
Got the X-ray, showed no damage but I still couldn't walk upstairs without favoring it. And I'm doing so, it damaged the left knee.
They ordered rehab for the right knee only. It had to be in-network for insurance to cover any of it, which turned out my copay was still more expensive than paying out of pocket at regional PT location.
After half a dozen visits the PTs still couldn't figure out what was wrong with my knee. Ortho orders an MRI.
MRI shows everything is intact, it must have been a bad sprain /stress.
Only now did the PCP get to the point to be able to offer steroid shot. There would need to be additional hoops to jump through before insurance even considers approving/paying for surgery
End up getting a shot in the left knee after another X-RAY but they still don't know what the issue is with either of them.
This ended up completely wiping out 2 years worth of FSA, and the only way I DIDN'T pay out of pocket was because I still had a couple grand on the HSA from my previous job.
My knee can still go out from time to time but it's still a tad better.
Quite a few years ago my daughter needed an appointment with our private insurance doctor. Wait list was about a month. She had to go back to college before then, which was in Ontario, so no help. Saw a doctor in Canada the day after she arrived back.
In Germany that's fitting though (in most cases).
Privately insured I just go to most docs when I need to, don't have to wait for an appointment and don't have to wait when I'm there.
People tell me they'll sometimes have to wait maaaany months for an appointment. Even years for areas like psychotherapy.
A lot of people I hear IRL complaining about wait times are also the kinds of people that go to the ER for a non-emergency. Of course you're gonna be waiting a long time at the ER if the only thing you're there for is you have a cold. That's for serious, life-threatening shit snd triage would treat you the same whether you had to pay or not.
I was seen by a triage nurse in under 5 minutes. I had a wound on my leg that was only not bleeding due to a tourniquet. Was sent to the waiting room. A women there was complaining they'd been waiting 6 hours for her kid who was running laps of the room.
I was seen in under 20 minutes.
2 hours later as I was on my way home having had my leg stitched up and they were still waiting.
you wait now with a paid system, prior auth or not. Just wait till everyone is covered for everything, see how long the wait will be. Free is awesome until you see the line you have to wait in to get free.
Both my parents are retired and paying in total over $1000 per MONTH for health insurance (including dental and vision, with multiple plans because there isn't just one that covers primary care, prescriptions, and emergency care; they need separate policies for each one).
And this is while on medicare, which they're pretending isn't actively being defunded as we speak and only even still usable because our liberal state is picking up some of the slack.
Yet they get passive aggressive every time I bring up universal healthcare, like they think I'm some sort of communist. Even when I say something rational and informed like "The government would spend less taxpayer money on healthcare under a universal healthcare system, and everyone would be covered and also pay less for healthcare."
They don't understand the logic behind that because they don't realize just how much greedy corporate middlemen are scalping off of the current system. They just know that what I'm saying conflicts with the right-wing talking points they've consumed through the media their whole lives.
And it's the same stoey if I talk about other countries where they have universal healthcare and how it works so much better. How most of the world doesn't worry about "should I go to the hospital for this even though I can't afford to," and how the concept of "going into debt over a medical emergency" doesn't exist anywhere but here. How among the entire world, developed nations especially, we are unique in that regard.
They act like I don't know what I'm talking about, like it's some unrealistic pipe dream. Even though I've traveled to other countries and spoken personally with people who have that perspective. But they ignore that because they can't fathom the idea that maybe they're the ignorant/unrealistic ones. Also they can't countenance the idea that the thing that makes the US so "unique" is actually how uniquely backwards and shitty we are.
They can't wrap their minds around that, so they refuse to even try. So they get passive-aggressive with me when I bring it up, and continue voting republican while spending $1000+ per month of their retirement money on health insurance that doesn't even cover everything...
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also, "long wait times", at least in Canada, are often a result of gutting being done to the healthcare system at the provincial level by conservative governments in an effort to convince people to privatize, and some idiots always fuckin fall for it.
It's also exaggerated, in my experience.
It isn't always exaggerated but generally lacks context.
Some types of surgery can have long wait times if they are non life threatening but can drastically improve quality of life which is very very frustrating.
The thing they ignore though is that most people waiting could not afford the surgery at all in a private system. Most people in Canada live very close to the border and American health care is more than willing to take their money.
It isn't perfect and we should definitely be investing more in and trying to address problems but I don't see how things like American HMOs are anything more then rent seekers.
I never meant to imply that there can't be long wait times, just that they are, in my opinion, exaggerated. I have had to wait for things as well, but having experienced health care in the USA, I could not really complain.
Canada definitely could improved, but it's still night and day better than what's south of the border, imho.
I just said that I believe it could be improved. My bar is higher than the USA, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm thankful that it's better than the USA, having experienced both. They are not mutually exclusive sentiments.
The only counter-argument I have to that is the common refrain among many politicians who used to point to the American system as superior, which has only really started to focus on some of the cheaper options per capita in Europe in the last decade.
Yep, same here. The ÖVP in Austria (a bit like "Republicans light" in the US, with a conservative view regarding social services and neolibs regarding economy, while mostly not being fucking grifters) are always trying to cut finances to the public health system, which makes the situation worse, and then they use the shit they caused as an argument to cut more services.
Good thing is, the old parties are on their way out because their voter base is dying out. Bad news is that instead of them we have a far-right party scooping up their voters. The Socialist Party, which is one of the old parties, is occupied with infighting similar to the democrats in the US between the left wing and the centrists, with the expected loss of voters because of the old people dying and the party utterly being disconnected from the younger generations, and the greens are occupying themselves with culture wars bullshit instead of trying to help the populace out. The communists are achieving local successes where they work to make sure that housing is affordable, while being utterly unvoteable on the federal level. And then we have a pure neolib party (NEOs) which is ÖVP light.
All of this makes me fear for the social peace in the country.
It's similar in Germany.
The CDU/CSU, our conservatives, huffed a bit too much of their own supply and had brilliant ideas like reducing the public deficit by reducing infrastructure spending to zero. When that somehow started costing them votes after bridges started to collapse they decided to lean wholesale into the culture war bullshit by "engaging" the hard-right AfD by copying their rhetoric wholesale. Oddly enough, all this does is legitimize the AfD and drive voters to them. Currently the chancellor is busy trying to find out how unpopular he can get before the government collapses, championing policies that would've instantly ended careers twenty years ago. (And yes, this includes cuts to the healthcare system and "cost-saving" measures that everyone agrees will drive up costs.)
The SPD, our social democrats, have essentially purged all of their social democrat members and are now a business-friendly rump party with no discernible character or platform. The Greens have softened their ecological policies to the point of pointlessness. The FDP, our libertarians, were always ready to harm the country to help the rich; the last time they were in office they were so blatant about it they destroyed the governing coalition and are now deeply despised.
The one traditional party that somehow moved in a positive direction was The Left, whose Russia fanboys tried to spin off into their own populist party, which then fizzled out. This, and the fact that they still somewhat care about what the label says, makes them the only ones who haven't fully enhsittified themselves.
Then there's the new boy on the block, the AfD. Positioning themselves as a moderate conservative worker's party, their actual policies only don't declare foreigners (and foreign-looking people) to be second-class humans because that spot is already reserved for Germans who aren't independently wealthy. Foreigners are somewhere below that. Due to an inexplicably effective social media presence and the general fecklessness of the established parties they're rising meteorically.
Notably, the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution only hasn't designated the AfD as a known extremist organization because they immediately sued and the designation must be withheld until the suit is resolved. Several federal countries have designated them as threats to the democratic order. The CDU/CSU insists the can't possibly be banned, at first because they were too small, now because they're too big.
There are smaller parties that aren't yet self-serving empty husks but they generally don't have any chance of making it past the 5% hurdle because they don't have the weight of tradition or the equivalent of a billion Euro advertising budget behind them. I personally am somewhat partial towards the Humanists because they cite scientific papers for each of their policies. It's a nice break from the usual "our way is the only correct way because we say so". Too bad they'll probably never make it big.
At least you guys have Die Linke - we are sorely lacking anything of the sort, while the FPÖ (AfD for Austrians) is getting more and more public support, with the same inhuman rhetoric and the same inexplicably effective social media boost - US social media and their owners deserve the guillotine for messing up our societies.
I’m jealous of more than two parties (while technically we do as well, in practice they are zero impact)
We had to go through a time with only one party to get there tho, can't recommend that move.
The strategy is called “starve the beast”.
If you intentionally break something while telling everyone it's broken, you are technically correct, but still an idiot.
It’s usually done under the guise of reducing taxes or reducing the size of government.
Usually done by our Republican (Conservative) Party spouting generalities like “taxes are too high”, “government is wasteful”, “private company could do better”. Somehow they always skip the part where the functionality is important and the private alternative is worse and costlier (but at least their buddies get to profit)
Apparently voters fall for it, without consideration for what is being cut or whether it really needs to be
And somehow we also keep falling for “reduce taxes” even when that only benefits the wealthy, and when that’s actually the biggest source of debt
Same in Italy, hospitals don't get enough found because the government (which is usually right wing but rarely center-left too) does not give enough money to hospitals and then (stupid) people say "look at Switzerland!! They do way better than us, we must do like 'em" or as some said a few years back "look at USA!!! With their private healthcare! They are doing good"
Yeah, good my ass, now they are suffering
No need to wait at all when for-profit insurance tells you it's just not covered! So efficient. Best system ever.
They don't give a shit how long you wait here, just that having to wait there is why we shouldn't do it
What's "universal" is that it's fast if you have enough money and connections
What's not necessarily universal is the "poverty via medical bills"
Luigi is a motherfucking American hero. Make sure you donate to his legal fund if you can!
He didn't even do anything, I was playing chess with him at the time of Brian Thompson's murder
For real, I was there we were taking turns!
Is "playing chess" what they're calling it these days? Giggity.
I once had a conversation with a coworker who was complaining that he couldn't afford to go to the Dr for a fucked up back, I brought up how most 1st world countries have health care for everyone.
Dude said " yeah fuck that, I don't want to wait to see a doctor"
It's just so fucking stupid.
Over 90% of Democrats want universal healthcare, along with over 60% of Independents and even 30%+ of Republican voters.
So, a huge majority of people in the USA want the same healthcare as Canada, UK, Japan, Poland... (huge list of dozens of civilized countries).
The Democrats have used this issue to win elections since the 1990s. The USA gives billions of dollars to people around the world, most of whom have universal healthcare themselves.
We're the wealthiest of these nations by far, but unfortunately, the wealth is top heavy, and those wealthy people are paying US reps a gigantic pile of money to keep things as they are, so that they can make even more enormous piles of money.
That's it, it's pretty simple. IF ONLY we lived in a republic with representatives that work for their constituency!
That would be neat.
What about corporations? They don't need healthcarr and they are people too!
I just had to wait for 3 weeks to get a refill on my daily asthma inhaler, one and a half of them without my meds. There was some sort of supply issue with my regular one, so had to get a new one prescribed. I had to deal with going back and forth with the pharmacy, doc office, and insurance company to finally get the approved brands/prior authorizations figured out. I'm glad my asthma isn't too bad right now despite being allergy season.
I'm taking a wild guess here, but I'm guessing that folks in places with universal healthcare don't have to deal with this sort of bullshit.
Kind of. I’m in Germany (but from the US), and while it’s leagues and leagues better than the US, I recently had a similar issue. I was prescribed a daily generic medication that comes in increments of 100, which had some supply issues. The name brand version comes in increments of 30, so I had to get my prescription rewritten for 90 pills instead of 100, because they couldn’t just dispense less medication than I was prescribed.
I ended up going two days without my medication, but it was still better than in a non universal healthcare system. I used the same medication in the US, and regularly had to skip a day or two around refills (once it took over a month to actually get my refill), plus I was only able to fill one month at a time and had to pay way more. In the US, I had to pay for: a monthly doctor’s visit, a drug test to make sure I was taking my medication, and a high prescription cost ($50-$330/month, depending on whether I’d reached my deductible and whether it was a generic or not). In Germany, I pay 8.50€/month for the brand name or 10€/3 months for the generic, no cost for doctor’s visits and no required drug test.
In the American system you don't wait because insurance just denies you instead.
I agree with the message, but why did you need gemini to make this?
Luigi should have sparked a revolt. It's a shame it fizzled out without even starting.
They were like "we can't encourage copycat crimes" and i was more like "we should be so lucky!"
The way to not encourage copycat crimes is to stop treating people like cattle on the way to the abbatoir.
You have to wait under the current system, too. I'd rather not be paying $500/mo for the privilege.
Well if you wait, they still get the money each month. Win for them.
The "wait times" line was always bullshit. Many of us live in other countries, and we almost never have long wait times. That's reality. The end.
You can believe us, as we tell you about our lives, or you can believe a scam artist who's getting rich while watching you get sick and die.
Yes. Right now, you wait AND pay for the privilege of waiting! An absolute win!
Or is the biggest lie "death panels" that will deny you help. Let's ask Luigi
The only reason wait tines would possibly be lower in for-profit health care is because there are fewer people in the system because more people can't afford it.
And we're told that's a good thing?
Probably more doctors too since they're paid ridiculous sums in private practice.
Per capita the US has fewer doctors to patients compared to OEDC countries with public healthcare.
Had to look it up since that seems like a reasonable argument but the stats don't seem to line up
Huh, that's actually surprising but I guess explained by how expensive the degree is over there and how many people don't want to get into debt over it
I think that is the trade off. The filter of the risk is greater then the potential in reward. Which is also probably why the reward is so high for the few that do make it to there and choose that route.
For-profit healthcare has an incentive to minimize costs
Public healthcare can have incentives like less wait time …. As long as we decide to pay for it
—-
Edit: maybe I assumed too much context since everyone is reading the opposite of my intended meaning
They will pay medical providers as little as they can, which increases wait times. They do not have incentives to reduce wait times
Without the profit motive, public healthcare can choose to pay for better service , reducing wait times. Typical approaches for similar services would be setting standards on things like the max number of patients a physician can support. They probably won’t, because Conservatives, but they could
Rather than just downvoting you, let me explain why you are getting downvoted. It's because that isn't true. For-profit healthcare will both want to increase the cost as well as decrease the cost depending on where within the chain they are and where the money comes from. Are you billing the government through medicare/medicaid? Max that shit out and stack codes. Are you the provider trying to claw money from the insurance pool? You are forced to minimize everything or risk being rejected and not paid anything for services already rendered.
This notion that our for-profit system saves money and is somehow more efficient instantly breaks down the second you compare how much we spend on the same services compared to universal or single payer systems. The USA pays approximately triple per capita for Healthcare while also receiving poorer outcomes on average.
Not only that, if our system incentivized lower prices, then why is medical tourism a thing that Americans do to other countries? Like going to Canada to buy your prescription drugs or Mexico for dental work?
If you spent even one minute looking up the cost of American Healthcare compared to other comparable countries, you would have known how false your statement was.
Medicare and medicaid can and will reject you too tbh. In any case, they'll bill the maximum they think will stick with the particular payor. Denied claims can be resubmitted with charges if necessary.
lol
the exact opposite is the truth
There is an incentive to lower overheads but when they can simply raise prices to compensate the incentive isn't as appealing as the simpler, easier option.
We all wait when it's something new. Once you're seen it goes at a good speed. That's still a bullshit excuse for not giving Americans what they want. There's always going to be cry babies that want to pay a chunk of their salary so let them. I think what really is the issue is they're afraid people are going to finally do what they want in life and not be tethered to a crappy job because they need healthcare. You're going to see a Renaissance people trying new things and I think it's wonderful.
The only long wait times in socialized health care are for non-critical issues, although sometimes the definition of "non-critical" can differ from what a person might expect.
I was a long term pain patient because my spine has been fucked since i was a teen, and waiting times for things like these are sometimes longer than they should be. But every time i had an emergency, service was impeccable and on par with the highest level of care you can pay for.
This has been my experience too. Maybe we need one government department focused on healthspan, rather than lifespan.
When would you like to see your primary care doctor? We have an appointment slot in 6 months you have no idea if you can get the day off for, but you can waitlist for an earlier appointment cancellation that you probably won't be available for either…
And your PCP will only have 5 minutes to spend with you when you do get an appointment because insurance companies have turned health care into car repair work. Physicians get paid by the job (patient), the job pays “x” time, the insurance pays the least it can per job, so the medical office crams and many jobs into the alotted time as possible so they can make money.
But you don’t have to wait in the American Health Care System.
I had a severely herniated disc to the point where I spent a good six months or so on opiates and stuck laying in bed. Was ok to walk short distances after a while so it was considered low priority for surgery. 3 year wait time, but I finally had it done and went home after a night in the hospital. The opiates were ~$12 for a month with no insurance. Was able to get the monthly prescription with a phone call and pick them up from any pharmacy.
The surgery and hospital stay cost me $0, and was given strong meds to take home for post op pain. Also free. (In Australia).
Idk if I'd have even gotten surgery in America, Luigi killed the United cunt because he was denied treatment for the same issue. Like, what's the point of insurance if there's a chance they won't even give it to you at all? And if they do you're still probably so out of pocket that you're worse off anyways.
Like yeah, I wish I'd been treated sooner. It fucking sucked and I'll have back pain for the rest of my life. But I had the option to go private and go into debt if I wanted to. Americans don't even have a choice.
I live in a country with universal healthcare. In 6 weeks I went from an ambulance to hospital, to surgery to remove a tumor from my abdomen. And for the last 3 years I've had 3 monthly CT scans and a meeting with my oncologist. It has never cost me a penny.
That wait is fucking called, "triage."
How can I pay more money to have my rash looked at before the guy dying from a heart attack? /S
The number of people that actually think and act like this sickens me
You're not wrong.
The waiting time has little to do with the payment and much more to do with having enough doctors.
Where I live, the universal healthcare has a guarantee for treatment within a time dependent on the illness. If the public healthcare fails to offer the treatment within that time and if you can find treatment in the private sector, the government will still pay for it.
Both the private and public hospitals are paid a fixed price by the government by the patient, so it doesn't matter for the government (and taxes) who they have to pay.
The difference is that private hospitals can make a profit by keeping their costs lower than the fixed price, while public hospitals just need to balance. There are some overhead costs in the public hospitals, that are not necessarily present in the private sector, so it's not impossible for private hospitals to make a profit without cutting down on the service. They probably still do cut as much as they can get away with, but overall they have to deliver the same safety standards and follow the same regulations. The government audits both.
Anyway, waiting time is an issue, but not because of how it's paid.
And many go bankrupt with insurance, what a bad system.
"You have to wait 7 months to see a doctor" vs "You skip going to the doctor because you simply can't afford it"
I got one that’s a true fiasco of twisted incentives.
And this guy has the nerve to keep asking me if I’m taking my medicine regularly. No, bitch, not unless you can prescribe refills regularly
I have an appointment with a primary care physician on Friday. It's my first one since 2004. Because I usually couldn't afford insurance, and when I finally did get it, I couldn't find a doctor that was: taking new patients; covered under my insurance; and less than 50 miles away.
I moved to a new state 2 years ago and after about a year of finding a new house, having work done and finally being able to move in...in the process I borked my right knee moving stuff. Wanted to make an appt with an ortho doc.
Needed to find a new PCP, because they had to write the referral.
There was only 1 place I could find in network who was accepting new patients and didn't have a 6-month wait.
Went there, got the referral
Went to the Ortho, ordered an X-ray
Got the X-ray, showed no damage but I still couldn't walk upstairs without favoring it. And I'm doing so, it damaged the left knee.
They ordered rehab for the right knee only. It had to be in-network for insurance to cover any of it, which turned out my copay was still more expensive than paying out of pocket at regional PT location.
After half a dozen visits the PTs still couldn't figure out what was wrong with my knee. Ortho orders an MRI.
MRI shows everything is intact, it must have been a bad sprain /stress.
Only now did the PCP get to the point to be able to offer steroid shot. There would need to be additional hoops to jump through before insurance even considers approving/paying for surgery
End up getting a shot in the left knee after another X-RAY but they still don't know what the issue is with either of them.
This ended up completely wiping out 2 years worth of FSA, and the only way I DIDN'T pay out of pocket was because I still had a couple grand on the HSA from my previous job.
My knee can still go out from time to time but it's still a tad better.
Quite a few years ago my daughter needed an appointment with our private insurance doctor. Wait list was about a month. She had to go back to college before then, which was in Ontario, so no help. Saw a doctor in Canada the day after she arrived back.
In Germany that's fitting though (in most cases). Privately insured I just go to most docs when I need to, don't have to wait for an appointment and don't have to wait when I'm there.
People tell me they'll sometimes have to wait maaaany months for an appointment. Even years for areas like psychotherapy.
Still better than the USA though, obviously.
A lot of people I hear IRL complaining about wait times are also the kinds of people that go to the ER for a non-emergency. Of course you're gonna be waiting a long time at the ER if the only thing you're there for is you have a cold. That's for serious, life-threatening shit snd triage would treat you the same whether you had to pay or not.
Recently had to go to A&E (ER) in UK.
I was seen by a triage nurse in under 5 minutes. I had a wound on my leg that was only not bleeding due to a tourniquet. Was sent to the waiting room. A women there was complaining they'd been waiting 6 hours for her kid who was running laps of the room.
I was seen in under 20 minutes.
2 hours later as I was on my way home having had my leg stitched up and they were still waiting.
these people will say and do absolutely anything so they can keep fleeching people
Legend
you wait now with a paid system, prior auth or not. Just wait till everyone is covered for everything, see how long the wait will be. Free is awesome until you see the line you have to wait in to get free.
And a majority of Americans have completely bought this bullshit. That's why workers will fight against any kind of single payer.
Both my parents are retired and paying in total over $1000 per MONTH for health insurance (including dental and vision, with multiple plans because there isn't just one that covers primary care, prescriptions, and emergency care; they need separate policies for each one).
And this is while on medicare, which they're pretending isn't actively being defunded as we speak and only even still usable because our liberal state is picking up some of the slack.
Yet they get passive aggressive every time I bring up universal healthcare, like they think I'm some sort of communist. Even when I say something rational and informed like "The government would spend less taxpayer money on healthcare under a universal healthcare system, and everyone would be covered and also pay less for healthcare."
They don't understand the logic behind that because they don't realize just how much greedy corporate middlemen are scalping off of the current system. They just know that what I'm saying conflicts with the right-wing talking points they've consumed through the media their whole lives.
And it's the same stoey if I talk about other countries where they have universal healthcare and how it works so much better. How most of the world doesn't worry about "should I go to the hospital for this even though I can't afford to," and how the concept of "going into debt over a medical emergency" doesn't exist anywhere but here. How among the entire world, developed nations especially, we are unique in that regard.
They act like I don't know what I'm talking about, like it's some unrealistic pipe dream. Even though I've traveled to other countries and spoken personally with people who have that perspective. But they ignore that because they can't fathom the idea that maybe they're the ignorant/unrealistic ones. Also they can't countenance the idea that the thing that makes the US so "unique" is actually how uniquely backwards and shitty we are.
They can't wrap their minds around that, so they refuse to even try. So they get passive-aggressive with me when I bring it up, and continue voting republican while spending $1000+ per month of their retirement money on health insurance that doesn't even cover everything...