Water Heater Part 2: Voltage tester detects hot wires at thermostat but multimeter reads zero volts [SOLVED]
Original post (Thursday, April 30th):
Hello, c/plumbing, I'm back for another round of troubleshooting and need your help again, please.
Background: Yesterday my water heater stopped putting out hot water. Since I own my home, I decided to troubleshoot on my own before I call a professional plumber.
Ninja Edit 1 (additional background): Yesterday when we first noticed a problem, we were getting room temperature water, just warm enough to shower but still somewhat chilly, like the temp you get when you're about to run out of hot water. As of today, our "hot" water isn't even room temperature anymore, it's the same as our cold water (noticeably cooler than it was on Day 1).
(back to the original post)
What I've tried so far: With power turned off, I removed the cover panel and checked the reset button on the top thermostat, but it was not tripped (no click), so today I picked up a multimeter and tested resistance and continuity on both heating elements as demonstrated in this video. Both elements passed both tests - the resistance tests read between 12.7 and 12.9 ohms, and the continuity tests beeped. I also did a ground test, which read no resistance. So far, so good.
Where I'm stuck: At the electric panel I flipped the power back on for my water heater so I could do a voltage test at the thermostats and heating elements as demonstrated in this video. Even though my no-contact voltage tester detects hot wires (first photo), with the multimeter probes touching the topmost screws on the thermostat and/or the two screws for the heating element (second photo) my multimeter reads 0.0 volts in AC voltage mode (third photo). I've tested the multimeter on an electrical outlet and confirmed it reads 124 volts as expected (fourth photo), so I think the multimeter itself is functioning properly. I tried switching the probes, which made no difference (as expected b/c AC).
Any pointers on what I should try next? Since the multimeter doesn't read any voltage at the top thermostat, I'm not sure if this indicates an issue w/ the thermostat or if my testing process is flawed. Thank you!
Photos:
Ninja Edit 2 (more photos from my original testing):
I've also touched the multimeter probes to the screws on the heating element even though I originally only posted photos showing me testing the thermostat - here are the two additional photos that I should've included in the OP:
Edit 3 (terminal-to-ground tested each terminal individually + more photos):
I went back out there and re-checked each terminal individually (terminal to ground) for the top and bottom thermostats and heating elements. In all cases, readings came back between 124 and 126 vac.
I appear to have reached the limit for image uploads on a Lemmy post, but I also terminal-to-ground tested the other terminal for the top heating element and repeated these same tests for the bottom thermostat and heating element, and all of them show between 124 and 126 vac.
Where to go from here:
From these tests I believe I can conclude that all of the components (both thermostats and heating elements) are at least receiving power from the grid, although I am perplexed as to why when I connect both multimeter probes to both terminals at the same time, the multimeter reads 0 vac, which seems different from the second video that I linked above (here's that link again).
Given these latest test results and the fact that both heating elements passed earlier continuity tests w/ the power off and wires disconnected, any ideas what to check next? Is it time to just replace all four components and see if we get our hot water back?
Edit 3.1:
I'll look again for a rogue light switch and check the individual wires and if necessary the conduit cabling as suggested in the comments, then I'll report back. I do have an appointment that I need to scurry off to at the moment, but I'll get back to this in a few hours. Thank you!
Edit 4: After testing the individual wires at the top thermostat, there appears to be a fault somewhere between the top left wire and the circuit breaker. I tested at the circuit breaker and measured normal readings (125.4, 125.7, and 250 vac), so my next step is to investigate under the conduit on top of the water heater like Cataphract suggested. I want to thank everyone for getting me to this point. Your support has been amazing, truly beyond words. I'm about to call it a night tonight, then tomorrow I'll pick up where we left off and continue updating this thread. Thanks again!
Edit 5 (Tuesday, May 5th - after being visited by the electrician):
On Saturday w/ the power off and both wires disconnected from their respective terminals at the circuit breaker and the water heater, I checked for breaks in the wires between the circuit breaker and the water heater, which are about 20 feet apart (ordered some extension leads specifically for this test). In resistance and continuity modes the multimeter shows open line for the white wire and good line for the black wire, after which I'd reached the limits of my ability/desire to continue troubleshooting, so I called and scheduled an electrician to come out on Tuesday (today).
Fast forward to today (Tuesday), electrician comes out, I explain that my multimeter reads 0 vac at the thermostat and detects an open line on that white wire, so I believe it to be a power supply issue. He disagrees w/ my diagnosis, thinks a bad element could cause 0 vac reading at the thermostat, and recommends sending a plumber. The plumber is under the same roof as the electrician, and this company has decent ratings on Yelp, so despite my skepticism I accept his recommendation to have the plumber come out and take a look.
So the plumber is coming out later this afternoon. I'll explain the situation to him and if he agrees w/ the electrician that it's likely an issue w/ the thermostat and/or heating element, I'll let him do his thing and then either we'll have hot water (hallelujah) or we won't (boo).
Stay tuned...
Edit 5.1: Holy shit, we back, baybee let'z gooo!
Okay, so while the electrician was here, he inspected the wire connections on top of the water heater and noted that the wires were not braided, so he re-did them for me and put the caps back on. I fessed up to having disconnected them and putting them back wrong during my troubleshooting adventures. Keep in mind that at this point, I had thought the issue was with the white wire itself, and he thought the issue was one of the heating elements, so neither one of us thought to test the hot water after he tweaked that.
Fast forward 90 minutes, I go wash my hands in the bathroom, and after 10 or 15 seconds I notice the water's getting warm. I immediately run upstairs to test the shower, and holy shit, it's working! She's alive!
Literally me:
I must admit that I'm still perplexed b/c I thought I had ruled out that connection point as a possibility when I tested each end of the white wire from the circuit breaker to the top of the water heater for continuity, but if there has ever been a time when I'm glad to be wrong, this is it.
I would like to once again thank @[email protected] and @[email protected] for their invaluable advice and support. And I would be remiss if I didn't also thank my gf for her patience while we rode this out - in Cataphract's words, an absolute saint! 😘
Late to the party but hopefully able to help out, I've replaced many of these during my years doing contractor work. I'm extremely happy that you've decided to tackle this on your own, it's great for learning about the systems in your house and saves you a ton of money.
The reset button doesn't always pop (it's for overheating), but your description of having room temperature water probably means one of the elements aren't working (one that's got both completely out will be the same as your cold water running). This is assuming the water gets used pretty frequently as is suggested with a two-person household with showers/kitchen/etc.
As you see from this diagram there is a "dip tube" that the cold water comes in from, the elements will heat the water and make it rise to be the first water to exit from the tank. The rising water without both elements heating it will slowly dissipate causing it to continuously cycle the water up and down as it heats and cools.
You're on the right track with the videos you posted but kinda veered off from instructions with your testing. Continuity testing isn't a sure-fire accurate assessment unfortunately, also you're not placing your probes in the right spots for testing as is recommended in your video (timestamp around 6:30). No-contact voltage testers are.... iffy at times. It's basically just used as a safety measure to double check yourself before you start messing with stuff. I've gotten false positives plenty of times over the years with different devices. But, never just go with it, check over everything again including physically checking electrical line runs to make sure someone didn't splice something in that's about to shock you.
If you're a tinkerer like me, get familiar with your electrical diagram for your tank. It will be one of the two following configurations,
That silver conduit piping on the top of your tank is the electrical line-in. If you want to completely eliminate the breaker/electrical line from being a problem you can unscrew the electrical panel on top (shut the breaker off first) to see the wires spliced inside (more than likely just wire nuts). Always use safety first, shut off the breaker and test the top with your no-contact before you start un-nutting wires. Take pictures of the wires if you feel it's necessary to know exactly what is connected where (good practice to keep yourself from being screwed on bigger projects and something to look back as a "I did that"). Make sure the wires are secured in a manner that will not electrify the tank or anything around it before turning the breaker back on to test it. If those wires are good you know the problem is with the tank. Pre-twist the wires together before putting the wire nuts back on. It can be daunting, but so is automotive or even working around an oven, precaution and awareness, you've got this and don't rush ANYTHING.
If it's all good, I would suggest buying the kit from home depot if it's not something that's gonna hit your wallet too hard. Worse case scenario, you don't need it and eventually you WILL need it since all water heaters eventually break (the tank is just an insulated tank, the thermostats and elements are really the only "thing" that can break). 10% of the time it's a thermostat, it's very rare and usually from the environment like being installed in a crawl space (corrosion and etc). 80% of the time it's an element, other 10% will be a leak (again usually from the condition of the space). Your setup looks very well conditioned for your tank, so I would bet on an element.
Things You'll Need:
The usual school of thought is if you're replacing one thing, just replace all of it. Since you're the worker and home-owner it's up to you. I have had kits with bad parts, but it's rare so just keep that in mind.
I found a pretty basic manual from state selects that will cover your model, seems there are some shenanigans with how they do their specific model numbers (it happens). Bottom of Page 15 begins the process for thermostat and later on element removal/inspection/replacement. You can inspect the elements first and replace the one probably bad one and see if that fixes your problem with spare parts left over for a future fix, or just go to town with it all.
Some quick side notes:
Continued side notes/concerns:
Good luck, I'm here if you need anything additional!
Thanks for chiming in and for the diagrams, they are very helpful.
This makes sense, thanks for explaining that. One thing that's changed since yesterday is we seem to no longer be getting any hot water, not even room temperature, our "hot" water is now rather chilly, nearly indistinguishable from cold water.
Good point, I had also tested the heating element even though I omitted those photos from the original post (I should've included them). I've edited the post w/ those photos.
Thanks for the tip, I'll check this next.
They go down into a hole and I'm not sure where they go from there.
Yes, there is. It's hard to tell from the photos, but it's there.
That definitely makes me feel better seeing the pan, looks like an add-on with those wires going in. Possibly a sump pump/dehumidifier in an enclosed crawl space with lighting? If you get a chance to crawl under there it's always good to do a rough draft diagram of what's going where or just visually get the gist of what's going on if you're interested in your layout/systems.
The test of the electrical wires on the top of the tank will be the same tests you would perform by the thermostat that @[email protected] suggested, only difference is if one of the wires was damaged leading from the top of the tank to the thermostat but that's like a 1/million chance. If you're comfortable working around the thermostat it's probably easier to test each hot wire in there individually than additionally opening up the top.
If one of those lines are dead than I would suggest testing the breaker at the box (as dark said, sometimes breakers go bad but also such a rare occurrence compared to therm and elements), same kinda technique but use a lot more caution as you're opening up your breaker box. reference/tutorial video here, make sure you switch the main breaker off before taking the cover off, either in the top of your box or if it's a sub panel, then a different switch in your main box. Follow the videos advice and make some mental notes as he goes over the bus bar and the dangers associated with the box. Pretend the box exposed is a hot poisonous potato and you're playing operation and you will be fine.
The great part about this is if you're successful you've now unlocked the ability to add new lines in your house (code compliant of course, there are resources to make sure you're doing it right). You should feel uncomfortable and weary while doing these steps, complacency in electrical work is what gets you injured or killed.
Does the heater have its own breaker, and is that breaker single or double pole? (does it take up one slot ot two in the pannel?)I was asking to see what voltage to expect. Looked at your previous post; it's a 240vac heater.Connect one probe to a known good ground. (the water pipes should be grounded if metal, the case of the heater should be grounded as well) Probe each of the terminals with the other probe to find which wire is live. (checking for voltage)
Here's a typical diagram.
Those top two terminals you are probing should be live1 and live2 (split phase AC). Each one should measure ~120vac to ground, and there should be ~240vac between them. If either wire is broken, you'll get 0 volts between them and maybe one still showing 120->ground.
Based on your non-contact tester going off, but 0vac between those top two terminals: I would say there is a broken/disconnected live wire in between the heater and the breaker supplying it.
Is there perhaps a light switch nearby that doesn't seem to control any lights? Sometimes the water heater is wired to a switch, so it can be turned off easily while away from home for an extended period.
Thanks for the tip - I went back out there and with power on, I checked individually every terminal for top and bottom thermostats/elements, and in all cases the multimeter read 125.5 and 125.7 vac.
Any ideas on what I should check next?
No rogue light switches in the vicinity.
~125vac from every terminal, to ground?
But still 0 volts between the top two terminals?
That's consistent with one of the two live wires being disconnected somewhere between the heater and the breaker supplying it.
I said earlier that for this scenario to be correct you'd expect 0 volts on one side while only having ~120 on the other, but I forgot you'd read voltage through the heating elements because the thermostats will be calling for heat and connecting everything in the heater together.
The best way to confirm this would be to [with the breaker off] disconnect either the black or red wire from one of the top two terminals. Pull it out a bit so it won't come in contact with any metal, but you can safely probe it and the terminal it was removed from. Now turn the power back on and check voltage to ground on that wire and it's terminal.
The black and red wires on those top two terminals you've been checking are the power comming in. Regardless of what the heater is doing, even if it's totally broken with elements rotted through, you should be seeing ~240vac between those two. And both individually should have ~120vac to ground.
Everything I'm seeing so far tells me electric supply problem. Perhaps a switch like I mentioned, they can be in not very obvious places. Could also be a failed breaker; it should be a double pole breaker that takes up two slots in the pannel. Sometimes one side will feel squishy, like it's not closing/connecting properly.
/edit:
While each component is receiving power, they are only receiving half of a 240v supply. Note you cannot find a voltage across any component, only voltage from ground to each component.
Gotcha, I will check again for a rogue light switch and test the way you describe and report back. I have an appointment this morning that I need to get scooching for, but I'll definitely come back to this in a few hours. Thanks again.
I hunted for a switch again and came up empty. I also disconnected the top left wire from the terminal and re-tested. I repeated this test on the top right side (wasn't sure if it would matter).
Latest Test Results:
I have not opened up the silver conduit piping as Cataphract suggests, but I could use help interpreting these test results. Are they consistent w/ our hypothesis that the issue is somewhere between the circuit breaker and that first thermostat? Does it help narrow down the location of the fault at all? I feel like this indicates the fault is somewhere between the left wire and the circuit breaker, but I'm not confident about that. Thank you!
Photos:
You are correct: the right wire is being supplied with 120vac, however the left wire is missing its supply voltage. (the 2-5volts you're seeing is normal, for a disconnected wire. Capacitive coupling from running beside a live wire, with no path to ground).
There is definitely something between the heater and breaker, disconnected or burnt out.
The next thing to test is whether the breaker is correctly supplying 240vac between its two outputs. Turn off the main breaker, remove the panel cover, turn the breaker back on and check voltage between the red and black wires comming out of the water heaters breaker.
You should get 240vac between them, and 120vac to ground.
I went out to the garage to test the circuit breaker by following this video tutorial "Checking Testing Bad Circuit Breaker" by MoreThanMaintenance, and I'm stuck. At 1:05 in the video, he shows where to touch the red and black leads. The red lead is pretty self explanatory, but for the black lead, my panel looks different from his, mine doesn't have the white neutral bar. Any idea what I should touch the black lead to instead?
Photos:
Panel w/ cover removed:
Water heater circuit breaker:
No white neutral bars on the left side:
White neutral bars on the right side - are these for all the circuit breakers or just the right column?
Are you sure you're testing the correct breaker? That middle breaker is using black+white, but the wires in your heater are black+red. I'd guess it's the lower of the three large breakers.
If that definitely is the correct breaker; that confirms there is another splice to find (switch, or junction box) between the breaker and heater.
The water heater does not have/use a neutral wire; however the two strips of terminals towards the top on both the left and right are your neutral wires. The one on the right, lower down, with bare copper wires is your ground bar. The neutral and ground bars are directly connected together unless this is a sub pannel.
You should be voltage testing between three points in the panel:
The middle double-wide breaker (w/ white & black wires connected to it) is the correct one for the water heater. The bottom one is for the dryer. I see what you mean about there being another splice somewhere, thanks for pointing that out. Also, I'm not sure how I didn't see the silver vertical bar higher up on the left side under the word "water," thanks for pointing that out.
For testing voltage, do I have to touch a specific point on the neutral bar or should anywhere on the neutral bar work fine?
Typically water heaters are ran with 10/2 since a neutral isn't required unless you're doing an advanced setup. The top of the water tank under the conduit will be spliced like this picture
The red and black are internal wiring between the top splice and thermostat
@[email protected] I'm not sure if you missed my comment earlier above here, that video will also show in depth how to properly test the breaker inside of the box and outside of it plus goes over the do's and dont's of the procedure.
I posted a comment as well and funnily enough used the same wiring diagram because it looked the best and simplest lol.
Any chance your control wiring is DC?
I don't believe so.