If you think any billionaire "worked" for the amount of money they have, you're sorely mistaken. It's a byproduct of a flawed economic system, not their "work ethic." Not to say capitalism doesn't have it's benefits, but it's the system in which capitalism is allowed to operate that produces inequalities like that.
Yes. Considering the net loss in population and the its aging, an influx of new people generates new consumption and opportunities for market growth, and sustains socialized systems like pensions and health care, albeit over a long period.
On the other hand, billionaires hoard disgusting fortunes like fucking dragons to the detriment of society at large. They thus deserve to be slayed, like we would dragons.
Did you know some of the original guillotines already exist?
The rich can only "create jobs" because we have an economic and political system that skews reward toward investment rather than labor. Both are important, but let's not pretend that anyone can earn a billions without excessive wage theft from the people doing the actual labor.
It's just supply and demand we have very few entrepreneurs while a tone of uneducated workers, obviously they are going to get paid less, they took 0 risks investment side
You're kidding yourself if you think any investor would pay more than the absolutely minimum for labor. That's the issue, regulatory capture impedes labor rights and lets investors and capitalists exploit workers by doing the absolute minimum and nothing more. Any more, and another capitalist can come in and undercut and steal business.
This is why strong labor protections, efficient regulation, and competent governance is an absolute necessity to the growth and wellbeing of citizens beyond "the wealthy"
@DudePluto I'm not sure where you live, but in my part of the world approx. 50% of my income goes to taxes, either directly (sales tax, income tax, social security tax, medicare tax, property tax) or indirectly (taxes paid by people who make the things I buy that increases the overall cost of the things I buy). If some billionaire is stuck in a sub, whoever wants him alive can pay for it.
I don't care how much you pay in taxes. If you calculated what percentage of your actual income went to trying to save people (specifically in this instance) the number would be infinitesimal. And you better believe that if this incident is found to be the result of corporate negligence there will be lawsuits and more.
The fact that people turn legitimate anger and frustration from class warfare into hatred and indifference toward the suffering of fellow human beings is fucking disgusting. And I guarantee if you were in their boat and needed rescuing you'd spit in the direction of everyone holding their hands out for you to pay them to save you
I am certainly in agreement that billionaires are unhealthy for society and have no reason to exist. Their wealth should be redistributed. But I will not let my ideology eclipse my humanity. Nor should anyone.
You don’t. You aren’t paying anything. Because you don’t pay for USGC. And we’re not getting rid of the coast guard. Move somewhere where essential governance doesn't exist. Some libertarian utopia without building codes and roads. And die from eating toxic food.
I'm honestly thankful for the educational content that has come out of this. I'd always known that I didn't want to cram myself into a tiny, pressurized soup can, but now I can point to the exact reasons why.
That's not really comparable. When any citizen of a country gets lost either at sea or on land, large probably also multi million dollar searches are performed.
The difference is more to do with whether they're immigrants or natives.
But it is also absurd that we, on one hand, agree that all human lives have equal worth.. and on the other straight up consider a citicizen to be worth more than 1000 non-citizens.
I don't know how one can possibly argue that it is humane and in line with what we say our values are.
I think it also has to do with the fact they're illegally crossing. If an American or a Filipino got lost in Europe they'd still search for them. Hell, every year here in Croatia we have to rescue Czechs who climb up mountains in flip flops.
I guess the reason is that what they're doing is illegal, and you don't have enough resources to track and save every single migrant ship.
I mean, I don't remember hearing Frontex or national coast guards completely ignoring sinking ships, they often try to save them from what I know, they just don't have as many resources.
But I do think rescue capabilities could be improved. I don't know how hard it is, but I feel like with modern technology, setting up radar combined with satellite imagery shouldn't be that hard. Ships stick out of the water a lot, so tracking the ships that are out of place shouldn't be too hard.
Regarding immigration, once I believed we should take in all refugees, but now I've come to realise that it's more complicated. Untill we figure out how to properly assimilate them into society, it will only lead to problems and disappointment on both sides. If immigrants huddle up into segregated communities they won't assimilate, they'll be poor, and that's the source of all conflict. I don't believe they're any different from us, nor that their cultures are completely incompatible, but if they become segregated they will be ostracized from society, they'll be poor and resent society for shunning them. They came to this land from so far away, hearing promises of how great it is, and then they live worse than they did back home. That leads to crime, more resentment and racism, leading to them having an even harder time. It's a brutal cycle.
I think it also has to do with the fact they're illegally crossing
You do realize what these billionaires were doing was illegal too? It is riddled with safety and security violations, but were only able to bypass it because they did it entirely on their own.
But hey, the lives of hundreds of thousands does not matter if the some random corrupt legislator did not create a legal path for them to immigrate. Totally makes sense.
I don't remember hearing Frontex or national coast guards completely ignoring sinking ships
Are you serious? Or do you mean to say you did not hear about them ignoring ships since they are usually watching them drowning or even actively trying to sink them?
They came to this land from so far away, hearing promises of how great it is, and then they live worse than they did back home.
Ahh, so you are just helping them by denying basic human rights of seeking for asylum and a better life. That's too kind of you.
This isn't true. This is only a recent politicized phenomena. It never used to happen where people would excuse letting migrants drown. And I highly doubt any government rescue team checks your passport before dumping you back in the water. This only happens because of how highly politicized this issue is.
You're right actually, I can't find a source that says governments have a duty to protect their citizens, so by extension, there's no argument to only use your forces to protect citizens and not non-citizens
And the fact that these responses are from two completely different countries and continents. Unless you're talking about the media response, which OP has specifically said he's not. He's more concerned about having to pay taxes.
If you're not talking about media response then the whole conversation is pointless. It's not "hypocrisy" that Canada and the US responded differently from Greece to a crisis next to their waters
Neither. I'm insisting on intellectual honesty by asking how the US and Canada's response to a missing sub off their own waters is relevant to the Greek response to missing migrants off theirs.
If they meant it as "ahh I hate the governments who ____" then I sincerely withdraw my statement and apologize for misunderstanding. But they clearly did not mean that.
It's easy to polarize with such a headline/picture. Reality is way more nuanced than this:
Migrants are in fact being saved from shipwrecks, it is (sadly) in the news every week or so. The main problem is that these migrants don't have communication devices with them to signal emergencies, unlike the submarine. The boat on the surface alarmed emergency services when they lost connection with the sub, starting the rescue operation. It is difficult to rescue a boat of migrants, when you don't even know that they are in danger in the first place.
Secondly, the harsh reality is that most migrants try to enter a country illegally. Which by definition, is a huge risk on their part. The rich people on the sub were not doing anything illegal. However, in both cases, the people in or on the boat accepted the risks involved in their endeavor.
@Ronno@Banana this sounds very similar to "who will pick the cotton?" that was "just asking questions" as to why slavery should remain legal in the southern united states in the 19th century. It's the right thing to do. One's individual rights does not force obligations on the other. A freed market would provide.
IMO, those are very different situations, with slavery their freedom was taken. Most of the migrants (not refugees) are free, they are simply in search for a better life. Which is understandable, don't get me wrong. But the picture that is painted is too bright, people hop on a boat to "paradise" and are promised a life of riches. The reality is, this is not the situation they will find themselves in. Even if we were to allow them into the country, they would still live poor lives. Sure some will succeed, but most of them don't have the foundational knowledge/skills/command of the language of the country to get a job and find a place to live.
Meanwhile, looking at my own country The Netherlands, we see that natives are also struggling for housing. My generation is basically fucked, young families cannot buy nor rent a home to start their family in. This will impact The Netherlands for years/decades to come, it will be reflected in birth rate and future workforce. Allowing other people in the country now would be catastrophic.
On the other hand, recently there was an article about an approach by French farmers which I like. They sourced Moroccan workers, that could work in France for a couple months (IIRC max stay was 3 months), during this time, the workers would receive fair pay. After the work permit ends, the workers have to go back to Morocco. Then they are only allowed to go back to work in France after a period of time, with a new workers permit.
The key benefit is that workers bring the money back home, benefitting Morocco financially, and France with workforce. Most of this work by the farmers is seasonal anyway.
... Of course it is? We have things like taxation and social safety nets that allow a society to function. Never mind the simple fact that some places are stressed for resources as it is. That's not to say it can't be done better, but it's naive to think it's "simple". Never mind that simple doesn't necessarily mean easy...
I'm having a difficult time thinking of any form of society where people don't pool at least some portion of their surplus to help the group as a whole (and lift those up who have a deficit). Are you saying that shouldn't be a thing?
@gun open migration doesn't require the elimination of borders. There is a border between Germany & France, but that doesn't mean they have to stop people from crossing it. It still exists, laws are different, etc.
@cmdr_nova I apologize, I had thought you were associating firearm freedom with fascism. Would you mind sharing with me what you were speaking of, as I clearly missed the point.
Right, but if you want to stop school shootings with gun control and are also left wing enough to want zero borders, how will gun control be possible if crazies can just go and get their guns from places where its legal to get them. Am I fascist for pointing out an obvious contradiction?
If these dumbasses have enough money to drop on a ticket aboard this sub to look at something you can see on a documentary, they should also have to foot the bill for the rescue mission. I'm sure all these rescue programs are tax funded that they dodge themselves. So, not only are they squirreling and eating up money we could all be using, but now we're picking up the check.
Rich dude created a company that provides submarine tours of the titanic wreckage, except he built it and operated it stupidly (off the shelf "camping" parts, bad weather conditions). Now he's trapped in the submarine with like 4 other folks where no one knows where they are, and they are expected to run out of oxygen in like 12 hours from posting this.
Those billionaires are obviously focused on taking as much money as possible for themselves, so... I don't feel a lot of sympathy for them. In fact, maybe it's a fitting end that all their money can't save them.
A bunch of super wealthy dudes (including a bloke who went to space with Mr. Amazon and two members of one of Pakistan's biggest petrochemical families) got into an obvious death trap after signing a waiver that said that there's a decent chance that it'd kill them and now that it's gone missing multiple governments are spending millions of dollars on an attempt to rescue them on the off chance that they're actually still alive because the lives of the wealthy matter more than the lives of normal people.
Or maybe it has to do more with the region in which they're lost. The USCG is typically very good about aiding anyone within their AOR, no matter their socioeconomic class. This should be framed more as "why isn't Europe/Greece doing their jobs" than "why are the USCG/Canada actually doing their jobs".
Some rich people got put into a submersible where the glass hatch is bolted to the vehicle. The pilot then proceeds to turn on the Xbox controller to activate the vehicle. None of these rich people thought they should ask if the vehicle had and safety precautions, or perhaps a fucking steering wheel. The media has gone nuts over this story. Like "balloon boy" nuts.
The passengers signed a waiver to confirm their knowledge that the submarine is an "experimental" vessel "that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body, and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma or death."
Nobody cares that they are millionaires!
You think the coastguard is only helping them because they are millionaires? No they are trying to help because it's their job!
I guess all those miners getting stuck in mines during collapses and millions of equipment was shipped over to try and save them over weeks of time was because the miners were all millionaires.
You have a fucked up view of the world if you think only millionaires get helped in emergency situations.
If you go up a mountain to poke tigers, and a tiger shockingly eats you, should society drop everything and race up the mountain to find your pieces? It's disingenuous to equate this to the miners.
The US federal government values the average citizen's life at something like ~$12 million. This is mostly for policy like if 1,000 people a year die from something, say an unsafe ferris wheel design, a solution that would save them costing more than (1,000*12,000,000=)$12 billion would be rejected and considered not worth the economic cost. If the solution were cheaper, and cost like $500 million, then with good lobbying and a reasonable administration, it could easily become a new regulation.
Generally speaking if 5 anybodies went down like this submersible, you'd expect at least some millions to be spent in recovery missions.
That's just the start my dude. Once we disregard insignificant values like human rights and personal freedom, solving the issue of other people making problematic choices becomes trivial.
Imagine all the crime we would prevent if we just locked up anyone who earns less than say 50k euros.
But silver lining, we now know we can get the rich to take care of themselves if we offer them sketchy exploration opportunities too exclusive for the poors
A) seeing migrants die en masse makes people feel bad and helpless and weak.
B) Allowing people to say “stupid dumbass billionaires” makes people feel like they are better than some stupid dumbass billionaires.
It was always going to be B. Most times the media just goes where we demand it goes. If you want to complain about why the media is so shit -blame all of us.
Yeah, it's like anything else under capitalism, if you're willing to partake in whatever it is you don't like you're just a part of the problem.
Bad products, bad media, it's all the same. Don't consume if you want change. The fediverse' success in the last week shows that people banding together to refuse bullshit can actually make things happen.
I know this could be controversial, but in some countries immigration is quite a problem, there isn't enough work for everyone and the crime just gets higher an higher plus they do it illegally, not quite the same even though I get y'all sentiment
It's not controversial, it's just wrong. Immigration never takes jobs away, it always allows to create more jobs by inflating the local economy. Miami absorbed Cuban migrants after Mariel, and went richer. It has been widely studied now: immigrants took first low paying jobs that were understaffed, it injected more money in the local economy and it allowed spouses who were not working because they were doing the low paying jobs for free (nannying for instance) to get back to high paying jobs, it injects more money...
Same in Germany with Syrian intake
It isn't always true tho it is true for developed countries with low birth rates. For many developing countries immigrants taking low level jobs is a negative because there isn't enough high level jobs. And I am saying this as someone who is supportive of immigration
And the USA is in that group now. We have about 1.78 births per women in the us and that number is declining. You need a birth rate of over 2 per women in order to sustain a population without immigration. If a place does not sustain their population their economy cannot grow and if your birth rate is lower than 2 immigration is the only viable option to sustain it. Less people = less specialized jobs = less overall jobs = worse economy.
@git@drolex that seems to assume that individuals born in a particular geographic region should have better access to employment than those born somewhere else. Am I understanding you correctly?
Third article does other two is about general economy and inflation of the country which would negatively effect everyone on the country including migrants themselves
It doesn't always work out man, I live it in first person, they don't integrate don't work because we need every last job we have and distrust public peace
I always hated the legal argument. No landmass was ever historically conquered /populated / taken over / whatever through "legal immigration" except by indigenous peoples of those lands.
These immigrants are trying to find better lives for themselves and their families and it's horrible that people refuse to show any empathy for their struggles or dreams
I'm just not going to talk to someone who thinks he's morally superior just because he will never admit he's wrong even if he is plus you don't know our situation
Immigrants induce demand for goods and services, thus jobs
Except when the highest demand is for land. So they end up illegally occupying land, often government-maintained land that it usually allocates to agricultural projects.
Perhaps it shouldn't be illegal
If you're a third world country with a dense population and the population overflow is coming from an even more densely populated country that seems to have no motive to control it, then it damn right should be illegal. I'm not sacrificing my demographic if you can't take any right steps to regulate yours.
First of all, migrants not only generate jobs, but they also work the jobs that most native people don't want. Most farms and construction works nowadays are occupied by inmigrants, because they don't steal your job, they take the ones that you didn't like.
Second of all, most countries are not populated to their fullest. There's a lot of space, both horizontal and vertical, and Europe can perfectly house the inmigrants that it gets. And if space is such a big problem, then you should look at why we are letting entities like banks and "governments" have lots (thousands) of empty houses.
Not well-versed about the situation in the West. Read my comment again, especially the last part; I'm talking about densely populated third-world countries like mine.
And why are they migrating, I wonder. If only there were reasons other than purely economic ones, like war, lack of stability, extreme droughts and other fucked up things we tend to think of while considering third world countries - many of them destabilized forever by the western nations.
The thing is, we're both lucky, my Czech friend. They were not. What are they supposed to do? Die there, just because the richest and most privileged place in the world is too good to help out?
Muti Merkel and her 'Wir schafen das' promised them free money.
They came here for free money. Not for european culture and values.
Germans / French women and girls are raped every week by migrants.
Knife attacks are common business in Germany / France.
Sweden is admitting that they can't handle gang wars made by migrants.
Europe is getting to destroy by migrants because they don't give fuck about europe.
Peace, love for everyone is one big fairy tale. World / nature / universe doesn't work like it.
currently, I believe India takes the cake on that particular front, at least prime minister Modi does. For example, the ruling part is making all schools, public & private, remove references to evolution and the periodic table of the elements from grade 10 science curriculum as it challenges Hindu Nationalist ideas of Indians being the first peoples, and the greatest scientists.
@tomve_cz@szczur cultures and values change over time. That is the natural progression of the world. Migration is a human right, keeping your lilly white part of the world lilly white is not.
@tomve_cz@szczur no I want Jesus's name to be proclaimed throughout the earth.
However, what i want isn't at stake here. What is at stake here is the very lives of individuals. If you don't want certainly individuals to come to your home, that's your business, but you have no right to prevent me from inviting them to mine.
An extra benefit is the great wealth all of the world would receive by recognizing freedom of movement. But even if economists are wrong, it would still be the right thing to do.
@tomve_cz@szczur I am individual who happens to reside in the part of the world you are referring to as America. American is not a term I personally would use to describe myself any longer.
Man, the one and only reason humanity is a thing so different than the others is because we have a natural tendency towards helping out each other and cooperate in ways not observed amongst other species. Empathy and benevolence are inherently human traits and it's what made our society rise above in the first place.
But some people are assholes and you're a great example of that.
You just showed that you have no fucking idea about living.
You are more likely bored person who never had to work or your parents are / were too busy so they didn't spend a lot of time with you and you ended up in some naive reality.
@tomve_cz@szczur I mean I grew up on a Farm in Northwestern Wisconsin, I'm now employed in the metal working industry in Metro Detroit. My entire life I've had to labor, and my parents where always spending time with me, as much as I would have rather rode my bike to town to hang out with my friends, working in the fields, selling at the farmers' market, etc.
Very easy actually, because they do not live the struggle they can easily say do this or do that but they don't really know what it's happening, just today a young girl, 12 yo, was raped by one of this immigrants, the crime rate went up a lot
Absolutely not only the one who do something wrong, as some as they are found guilty, seams reasonable enough to me, no?
Unfortunately that would be the majority, but would make my country a better place
I think you missed the point there, they were talking about all men. If deportation prevents rape, that should, by your logic, endorse deporting any and all rapists. Also let's throw in there that rapists come in all genders, so basically prevention through group deportation would leave us with a pretty empty country. (And who would take us in, then, as that would make us migrants ourselves?)
Edit: I am unsure if I interpreted your comment as intended - with "only the one who do something wrong", were you refering to the sentenced migrants, or the sentenced men in general?
A while ago a guy was punched to death for being gay by a group of people with the same political opinions as you. Does that mean that you should be immediately deprived of your human rights? You can not compare every single inmigrant to something that happened one day.
You know, I'm living in Poland and we have a pretty fucking big populace of foreigners and the most rapes and murders are statistically commited by polish males. By percent.
Don’t you see? Rich people create jobs! Migrants just sit around and collect money from the hard work of everyone around them!
Oh wait, it’s the opposite isn’t it…
Best I can do is spent some of the claps I have left from the generous clapping during covid.
Migrants create jobs and rich people don’t work ?
If you think any billionaire "worked" for the amount of money they have, you're sorely mistaken. It's a byproduct of a flawed economic system, not their "work ethic." Not to say capitalism doesn't have it's benefits, but it's the system in which capitalism is allowed to operate that produces inequalities like that.
Yes. Considering the net loss in population and the its aging, an influx of new people generates new consumption and opportunities for market growth, and sustains socialized systems like pensions and health care, albeit over a long period.
On the other hand, billionaires hoard disgusting fortunes like fucking dragons to the detriment of society at large. They thus deserve to be slayed, like we would dragons.
Did you know some of the original guillotines already exist?
Ok maybe we just ask them kindly
You don't need to kill them, you just need to remove the money and BAM, no more billionaires, slayed the dragon.
So the existence of billionaires is not a problem as long as they aren't criminals?
It's pretty cool that the law is definitely not rigged in favor of the rich
Based and anti-death-penalty pilled
Tbh rich people do create jobs and migrants take those jobs usually
The rich can only "create jobs" because we have an economic and political system that skews reward toward investment rather than labor. Both are important, but let's not pretend that anyone can earn a billions without excessive wage theft from the people doing the actual labor.
It's just supply and demand we have very few entrepreneurs while a tone of uneducated workers, obviously they are going to get paid less, they took 0 risks investment side
Funny how the ceo couldn't assume and financial risk towards better safety measures, eh?
Like when his engineers recommended them and got shitcanned for it.
Achieving safety goals is for the poors.
I up voted you because you aren't wrong. At least in the sense of sweat shops. May not be good jobs, but they do technically count as jobs.
Not only sweat shops, if there is a little of human rights they can create pretty good working conditions and with competition salary rise up
You're kidding yourself if you think any investor would pay more than the absolutely minimum for labor. That's the issue, regulatory capture impedes labor rights and lets investors and capitalists exploit workers by doing the absolute minimum and nothing more. Any more, and another capitalist can come in and undercut and steal business.
This is why strong labor protections, efficient regulation, and competent governance is an absolute necessity to the growth and wellbeing of citizens beyond "the wealthy"
The wealthy don’t “create” anything. Consumer demand creates jobs. Workers create the products and the value.
The only thing the wealthy have is the capital, which they gain by siphoning off the excess value the laborers create.
while i understand the sentiment, it is quite novel when a submarine is lost vs when a surface ship is lost
When surface ship is declared lost that's usually because it's already became submarine.
I laughed at this and I don't like it.
same, he got me to laugh and now I'm conflicted about it
you've got to get yourself killed in a hot way to get my attention sweetie, okay? Non of that self preservation shit the poors are into
Have you tried live streaming your drowning? Maybe that would get more attention from folks. Gotta pull yourself up by them booty straps!
How many times do you hear about a submarine going missing though?
I think I here more about submarines being found where there weren't supposed to be any.
@snipe_at that's no reason to spend my tax money on it.
Oh no, 1% of my paycheck is going toward efforts to save lives
@DudePluto I'm not sure where you live, but in my part of the world approx. 50% of my income goes to taxes, either directly (sales tax, income tax, social security tax, medicare tax, property tax) or indirectly (taxes paid by people who make the things I buy that increases the overall cost of the things I buy). If some billionaire is stuck in a sub, whoever wants him alive can pay for it.
I don't care how much you pay in taxes. If you calculated what percentage of your actual income went to trying to save people (specifically in this instance) the number would be infinitesimal. And you better believe that if this incident is found to be the result of corporate negligence there will be lawsuits and more.
The fact that people turn legitimate anger and frustration from class warfare into hatred and indifference toward the suffering of fellow human beings is fucking disgusting. And I guarantee if you were in their boat and needed rescuing you'd spit in the direction of everyone holding their hands out for you to pay them to save you
Sine qua non for being a billionaire
I am certainly in agreement that billionaires are unhealthy for society and have no reason to exist. Their wealth should be redistributed. But I will not let my ideology eclipse my humanity. Nor should anyone.
How much do you pay for US coast guard? I think people are moaning about nothing on this.
@ImFresh3x more than 0 is more than I want to pay.
Then don't, leave the country that steals from you
You don’t. You aren’t paying anything. Because you don’t pay for USGC. And we’re not getting rid of the coast guard. Move somewhere where essential governance doesn't exist. Some libertarian utopia without building codes and roads. And die from eating toxic food.
But another 1% is too much for migrants? Contradictory logic.
I'm fine with my tax dollars going to rescuing both. It would be a much better use of my money than more bombs
It's because those billionaires are down there boosting the economy and creating jobs... for search and rescue teams.
I'm honestly thankful for the educational content that has come out of this. I'd always known that I didn't want to cram myself into a tiny, pressurized soup can, but now I can point to the exact reasons why.
Especially one built by a guy who scoffs at safety protocols
tHeY jUsT sLoW uS dOwN
Overheard:
"They paid for the full Titanic experience and that's what they got. What's the problem?"
Full experience? I see no damn ice berg anywhere! I'd want my money back.
That's not really comparable. When any citizen of a country gets lost either at sea or on land, large probably also multi million dollar searches are performed.
The difference is more to do with whether they're immigrants or natives.
But it is also absurd that we, on one hand, agree that all human lives have equal worth.. and on the other straight up consider a citicizen to be worth more than 1000 non-citizens.
I don't know how one can possibly argue that it is humane and in line with what we say our values are.
I think it also has to do with the fact they're illegally crossing. If an American or a Filipino got lost in Europe they'd still search for them. Hell, every year here in Croatia we have to rescue Czechs who climb up mountains in flip flops.
I guess the reason is that what they're doing is illegal, and you don't have enough resources to track and save every single migrant ship.
I mean, I don't remember hearing Frontex or national coast guards completely ignoring sinking ships, they often try to save them from what I know, they just don't have as many resources.
But I do think rescue capabilities could be improved. I don't know how hard it is, but I feel like with modern technology, setting up radar combined with satellite imagery shouldn't be that hard. Ships stick out of the water a lot, so tracking the ships that are out of place shouldn't be too hard.
Regarding immigration, once I believed we should take in all refugees, but now I've come to realise that it's more complicated. Untill we figure out how to properly assimilate them into society, it will only lead to problems and disappointment on both sides. If immigrants huddle up into segregated communities they won't assimilate, they'll be poor, and that's the source of all conflict. I don't believe they're any different from us, nor that their cultures are completely incompatible, but if they become segregated they will be ostracized from society, they'll be poor and resent society for shunning them. They came to this land from so far away, hearing promises of how great it is, and then they live worse than they did back home. That leads to crime, more resentment and racism, leading to them having an even harder time. It's a brutal cycle.
You do realize what these billionaires were doing was illegal too? It is riddled with safety and security violations, but were only able to bypass it because they did it entirely on their own.
But hey, the lives of hundreds of thousands does not matter if the some random corrupt legislator did not create a legal path for them to immigrate. Totally makes sense.
Are you serious? Or do you mean to say you did not hear about them ignoring ships since they are usually watching them drowning or even actively trying to sink them?
Ahh, so you are just helping them by denying basic human rights of seeking for asylum and a better life. That's too kind of you.
American, sure. Filipino? Hard doubt. Source?
Small correction, it has to do with whether they're citizens or not.
But being a billionaire also helps.
Non-citizen lives don't matter? Do you ever check someone's passport before saving them from drowning? Ridiculous.
Obviously not, but as a government body that's what the criteria is
This isn't true. This is only a recent politicized phenomena. It never used to happen where people would excuse letting migrants drown. And I highly doubt any government rescue team checks your passport before dumping you back in the water. This only happens because of how highly politicized this issue is.
You're right actually, I can't find a source that says governments have a duty to protect their citizens, so by extension, there's no argument to only use your forces to protect citizens and not non-citizens
And the fact that these responses are from two completely different countries and continents. Unless you're talking about the media response, which OP has specifically said he's not. He's more concerned about having to pay taxes.
If you're not talking about media response then the whole conversation is pointless. It's not "hypocrisy" that Canada and the US responded differently from Greece to a crisis next to their waters
Are you asserting that the US wouldn't do this, or is this just for deflection's sake?
Neither. I'm insisting on intellectual honesty by asking how the US and Canada's response to a missing sub off their own waters is relevant to the Greek response to missing migrants off theirs.
Would you like some examples of the US treatment of migrants from Mexico? I thought you'd be aware.
So migrant lives not mattering to people like you is true. Good to know you at least confirm that part of the meme. Disgusting.
Hold on a moment. They didn't say that they didn't care about the lives. They were stating the viewpoint of the governments that send out the S&R.
They're providing that as justification.
If they meant it as "ahh I hate the governments who ____" then I sincerely withdraw my statement and apologize for misunderstanding. But they clearly did not mean that.
It's easy to polarize with such a headline/picture. Reality is way more nuanced than this:
Migrants are in fact being saved from shipwrecks, it is (sadly) in the news every week or so. The main problem is that these migrants don't have communication devices with them to signal emergencies, unlike the submarine. The boat on the surface alarmed emergency services when they lost connection with the sub, starting the rescue operation. It is difficult to rescue a boat of migrants, when you don't even know that they are in danger in the first place.
Secondly, the harsh reality is that most migrants try to enter a country illegally. Which by definition, is a huge risk on their part. The rich people on the sub were not doing anything illegal. However, in both cases, the people in or on the boat accepted the risks involved in their endeavor.
@Ronno the problem is making the natural human right of migration illegal in the first place.
@Banana no, it's not.
Yes it is, where will we house these migrants?
@Ronno @Banana this sounds very similar to "who will pick the cotton?" that was "just asking questions" as to why slavery should remain legal in the southern united states in the 19th century. It's the right thing to do. One's individual rights does not force obligations on the other. A freed market would provide.
IMO, those are very different situations, with slavery their freedom was taken. Most of the migrants (not refugees) are free, they are simply in search for a better life. Which is understandable, don't get me wrong. But the picture that is painted is too bright, people hop on a boat to "paradise" and are promised a life of riches. The reality is, this is not the situation they will find themselves in. Even if we were to allow them into the country, they would still live poor lives. Sure some will succeed, but most of them don't have the foundational knowledge/skills/command of the language of the country to get a job and find a place to live.
Meanwhile, looking at my own country The Netherlands, we see that natives are also struggling for housing. My generation is basically fucked, young families cannot buy nor rent a home to start their family in. This will impact The Netherlands for years/decades to come, it will be reflected in birth rate and future workforce. Allowing other people in the country now would be catastrophic.
On the other hand, recently there was an article about an approach by French farmers which I like. They sourced Moroccan workers, that could work in France for a couple months (IIRC max stay was 3 months), during this time, the workers would receive fair pay. After the work permit ends, the workers have to go back to Morocco. Then they are only allowed to go back to work in France after a period of time, with a new workers permit.
The key benefit is that workers bring the money back home, benefitting Morocco financially, and France with workforce. Most of this work by the farmers is seasonal anyway.
@Ronno @Banana sounds like you need to migrate too.
... Of course it is? We have things like taxation and social safety nets that allow a society to function. Never mind the simple fact that some places are stressed for resources as it is. That's not to say it can't be done better, but it's naive to think it's "simple". Never mind that simple doesn't necessarily mean easy...
@usualsuspect191
There, I fixed it for ya 😉
I'm having a difficult time thinking of any form of society where people don't pool at least some portion of their surplus to help the group as a whole (and lift those up who have a deficit). Are you saying that shouldn't be a thing?
How are you going to continue to enforce gun control in your country if there are zero borders?
@gun open migration doesn't require the elimination of borders. There is a border between Germany & France, but that doesn't mean they have to stop people from crossing it. It still exists, laws are different, etc.
If you don't stop people from crossing it, how do you check what they are carrying? How do you prevent guns from moving across a border in that case?
@gun I don't think we should.
@gun @fu hey lemmy get the fascists off your instance
@cmdr_nova lemmy.ml is certianly anti-facist, but to my knowledge is not anti-gun
@fu way to focus on exactly what I wasn't talking about
@cmdr_nova I apologize, I had thought you were associating firearm freedom with fascism. Would you mind sharing with me what you were speaking of, as I clearly missed the point.
Right, but if you want to stop school shootings with gun control and are also left wing enough to want zero borders, how will gun control be possible if crazies can just go and get their guns from places where its legal to get them. Am I fascist for pointing out an obvious contradiction?
WTF said anything about wanting gun control?
I did. It's just a random example to argue what @[email protected] was saying about reality being more complicated.
@gun i don't enforce gun control laws now. As far as those that do...well...ACAB.
Fellas, should we just be killing folks that are in the wrong place?
I do like things tidy, but is human life actually worth anything?
Great. Doesn't mean you get to just outright murder them.
If these dumbasses have enough money to drop on a ticket aboard this sub to look at something you can see on a documentary, they should also have to foot the bill for the rescue mission. I'm sure all these rescue programs are tax funded that they dodge themselves. So, not only are they squirreling and eating up money we could all be using, but now we're picking up the check.
I'm out of the loop on this one. What happened?
Rich dude created a company that provides submarine tours of the titanic wreckage, except he built it and operated it stupidly (off the shelf "camping" parts, bad weather conditions). Now he's trapped in the submarine with like 4 other folks where no one knows where they are, and they are expected to run out of oxygen in like 12 hours from posting this.
Super tragic but like, totally avoidable.
I am impressed that he got these people to pay him for a ride in his janky submarine. I bet that each „ticket“ costs more than the whole submarine.
I heard it was VERY expensive too.
https://titanaircheck.com/
That site seems broken.
Yup, broken
Just like the sub?
Those billionaires are obviously focused on taking as much money as possible for themselves, so... I don't feel a lot of sympathy for them. In fact, maybe it's a fitting end that all their money can't save them.
Update: They found some debree that indicates implosion. They are dead for sure now.
A bunch of super wealthy dudes (including a bloke who went to space with Mr. Amazon and two members of one of Pakistan's biggest petrochemical families) got into an obvious death trap after signing a waiver that said that there's a decent chance that it'd kill them and now that it's gone missing multiple governments are spending millions of dollars on an attempt to rescue them on the off chance that they're actually still alive because the lives of the wealthy matter more than the lives of normal people.
Or maybe it has to do more with the region in which they're lost. The USCG is typically very good about aiding anyone within their AOR, no matter their socioeconomic class. This should be framed more as "why isn't Europe/Greece doing their jobs" than "why are the USCG/Canada actually doing their jobs".
Some rich people got put into a submersible where the glass hatch is bolted to the vehicle. The pilot then proceeds to turn on the Xbox controller to activate the vehicle. None of these rich people thought they should ask if the vehicle had and safety precautions, or perhaps a fucking steering wheel. The media has gone nuts over this story. Like "balloon boy" nuts.
@jeebus @LoreleiSankTheShip the "Xbox Controller" concern is a little bit of a media boogeyman. Similar controllers are used for military vehicles too.
Using a controller is reasonable. Not having redundancy would be insane. This article suggests they hand plenty of redundancy for surfacing.
"The Logitech F710 gamepad is a third-party wireless controller that can be used to play PC games.
It is one of the cheaper and least reliable controllers currently on the market, and suffers from a number of issues.
Numerous reviews on Amazon claim that it often suffers from connectivity issues, where the controller refuses to connect wirelessly".
https://www.the-sun.com/tech/8411660/titan-video-game-controller-titanic-missing/amp/
Idk if the same trustworthiness applies to the specific controller that was allegedly used
Using a controller to steer a sub is normal.
Xbox controller is not the problem. The most expensive part of the whole thing is what failed.
Maybe they're afraid of the families of the rich suing them /shrug
The passengers signed a waiver to confirm their knowledge that the submarine is an "experimental" vessel "that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body, and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma or death."
https://web.archive.org/web/20230619230915/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65934887
Damn that's pretty bad
Since the CEO went down with his s̶h̶i̶p̶ sub, the lawyers will have to get creative.
Could just claim they're looking for them while not actually giving a shit
pretty sure this company is fucked
Nobody cares that they are millionaires!
You think the coastguard is only helping them because they are millionaires? No they are trying to help because it's their job!
I guess all those miners getting stuck in mines during collapses and millions of equipment was shipped over to try and save them over weeks of time was because the miners were all millionaires.
You have a fucked up view of the world if you think only millionaires get helped in emergency situations.
If you go up a mountain to poke tigers, and a tiger shockingly eats you, should society drop everything and race up the mountain to find your pieces? It's disingenuous to equate this to the miners.
Well, you know. In this particular case the Coastal Guard did not do their job. That's what gets the uproar.
@HelloImFrank having spent 4 years in the U.S. Coast Guard, I can tell you that you are incorrect.
Cool, please tell us more how you refused to save people based on their income.
@archon i refused to do shit.
The US federal government values the average citizen's life at something like ~$12 million. This is mostly for policy like if 1,000 people a year die from something, say an unsafe ferris wheel design, a solution that would save them costing more than (1,000*12,000,000=)$12 billion would be rejected and considered not worth the economic cost. If the solution were cheaper, and cost like $500 million, then with good lobbying and a reasonable administration, it could easily become a new regulation.
Generally speaking if 5 anybodies went down like this submersible, you'd expect at least some millions to be spent in recovery missions.
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2020/07/17/870483369/your-life-is-worth-10-million-according-to-the-government
The ~$12 million figure is what the NHTSA is currently using for its purposes.
That's the problem, we allow our governments to treat people differently based on where they happen to have been born.
Think about it. If we just imprisoned all rich people, they didn't have to be rescued from their shitty, expensive vacation trips.
That's just the start my dude. Once we disregard insignificant values like human rights and personal freedom, solving the issue of other people making problematic choices becomes trivial.
Imagine all the crime we would prevent if we just locked up anyone who earns less than say 50k euros.
This is gonna be turned into a movie so fast...in fact I bet the rights are already been sold to a studio.
But silver lining, we now know we can get the rich to take care of themselves if we offer them sketchy exploration opportunities too exclusive for the poors
Problem is the choices are;
A) seeing migrants die en masse makes people feel bad and helpless and weak.
B) Allowing people to say “stupid dumbass billionaires” makes people feel like they are better than some stupid dumbass billionaires.
It was always going to be B. Most times the media just goes where we demand it goes. If you want to complain about why the media is so shit -blame all of us.
Yeah, it's like anything else under capitalism, if you're willing to partake in whatever it is you don't like you're just a part of the problem.
Bad products, bad media, it's all the same. Don't consume if you want change. The fediverse' success in the last week shows that people banding together to refuse bullshit can actually make things happen.
@Col3814444 for me its certainly not about media, it's about government spending.
i kinda wish the rich people had to deal with the pooping situation
oof
what happend to the 5 rich men?
They got pulverized
Apparently there's been a "compress the rich" hashtag going around.
Though That 19 year old didn't want any part in this, was scared of the whole thing, and only went to appease his father
Feel sorry for the kid. Didn't deserve it when he was just trying to make his dad happy
Billionaire bloodline bludgeoned.
It's a 19 year old kid, wtf...
I am also fine with expanding them e.g. in space.
Yes. Rich lives matter and F the poor.
F to pay respects.
For that you would have to press F.
F
This is pinnacle of cringe.
Everything's gotta be a political statement to these people, I guess they have little to strive for otherwise.
I know this could be controversial, but in some countries immigration is quite a problem, there isn't enough work for everyone and the crime just gets higher an higher plus they do it illegally, not quite the same even though I get y'all sentiment
It's not controversial, it's just wrong. Immigration never takes jobs away, it always allows to create more jobs by inflating the local economy. Miami absorbed Cuban migrants after Mariel, and went richer. It has been widely studied now: immigrants took first low paying jobs that were understaffed, it injected more money in the local economy and it allowed spouses who were not working because they were doing the low paying jobs for free (nannying for instance) to get back to high paying jobs, it injects more money... Same in Germany with Syrian intake
It isn't always true tho it is true for developed countries with low birth rates. For many developing countries immigrants taking low level jobs is a negative because there isn't enough high level jobs. And I am saying this as someone who is supportive of immigration
And the USA is in that group now. We have about 1.78 births per women in the us and that number is declining. You need a birth rate of over 2 per women in order to sustain a population without immigration. If a place does not sustain their population their economy cannot grow and if your birth rate is lower than 2 immigration is the only viable option to sustain it. Less people = less specialized jobs = less overall jobs = worse economy.
@git @drolex that seems to assume that individuals born in a particular geographic region should have better access to employment than those born somewhere else. Am I understanding you correctly?
Third article does other two is about general economy and inflation of the country which would negatively effect everyone on the country including migrants themselves
It doesn't always work out man, I live it in first person, they don't integrate don't work because we need every last job we have and distrust public peace
Immigrants induce demand for goods and services just like anyone else, thus the jobs to render those goods and services.
Technically depends on the country but this is usually false.
Law is not morality. Perhaps it shouldn't be illegal.
I always hated the legal argument. No landmass was ever historically conquered /populated / taken over / whatever through "legal immigration" except by indigenous peoples of those lands. These immigrants are trying to find better lives for themselves and their families and it's horrible that people refuse to show any empathy for their struggles or dreams
I'm just not going to talk to someone who thinks he's morally superior just because he will never admit he's wrong even if he is plus you don't know our situation
Except when the highest demand is for land. So they end up illegally occupying land, often government-maintained land that it usually allocates to agricultural projects.
If you're a third world country with a dense population and the population overflow is coming from an even more densely populated country that seems to have no motive to control it, then it damn right should be illegal. I'm not sacrificing my demographic if you can't take any right steps to regulate yours.
First of all, migrants not only generate jobs, but they also work the jobs that most native people don't want. Most farms and construction works nowadays are occupied by inmigrants, because they don't steal your job, they take the ones that you didn't like.
Second of all, most countries are not populated to their fullest. There's a lot of space, both horizontal and vertical, and Europe can perfectly house the inmigrants that it gets. And if space is such a big problem, then you should look at why we are letting entities like banks and "governments" have lots (thousands) of empty houses.
Not well-versed about the situation in the West. Read my comment again, especially the last part; I'm talking about densely populated third-world countries like mine.
Migrants shouldn't go to europe in first place.
I'm thanking god (like ateist) every day that I'm not living in that part of europe where is raping, murdering, gang wars daily business.
And why are they migrating, I wonder. If only there were reasons other than purely economic ones, like war, lack of stability, extreme droughts and other fucked up things we tend to think of while considering third world countries - many of them destabilized forever by the western nations.
The thing is, we're both lucky, my Czech friend. They were not. What are they supposed to do? Die there, just because the richest and most privileged place in the world is too good to help out?
Muti Merkel and her 'Wir schafen das' promised them free money.
They came here for free money. Not for european culture and values.
Germans / French women and girls are raped every week by migrants.
Knife attacks are common business in Germany / France.
Sweden is admitting that they can't handle gang wars made by migrants.
Europe is getting to destroy by migrants because they don't give fuck about europe.
Peace, love for everyone is one big fairy tale. World / nature / universe doesn't work like it.
Move out of europe if you hate europe.
Thanks for reminding me these garbage takes aren't exclusive to the us, and sometimes you Europeans are even crazier with your xenophobia.
Unfortunately xenophobia is alive and well also in Europe. It tends to be more insidious and subtle, but it is very much there.
currently, I believe India takes the cake on that particular front, at least prime minister Modi does. For example, the ruling part is making all schools, public & private, remove references to evolution and the periodic table of the elements from grade 10 science curriculum as it challenges Hindu Nationalist ideas of Indians being the first peoples, and the greatest scientists.
@tomve_cz @szczur cultures and values change over time. That is the natural progression of the world. Migration is a human right, keeping your lilly white part of the world lilly white is not.
Do you want to make europe one big islamic continent? Do I understand correctly? thx
@tomve_cz @szczur no I want Jesus's name to be proclaimed throughout the earth.
However, what i want isn't at stake here. What is at stake here is the very lives of individuals. If you don't want certainly individuals to come to your home, that's your business, but you have no right to prevent me from inviting them to mine.
An extra benefit is the great wealth all of the world would receive by recognizing freedom of movement. But even if economists are wrong, it would still be the right thing to do.
Amen!
btw are you american or european? I saw that you wrote about serving in US CG
@tomve_cz @szczur I am individual who happens to reside in the part of the world you are referring to as America. American is not a term I personally would use to describe myself any longer.
Man, the one and only reason humanity is a thing so different than the others is because we have a natural tendency towards helping out each other and cooperate in ways not observed amongst other species. Empathy and benevolence are inherently human traits and it's what made our society rise above in the first place.
But some people are assholes and you're a great example of that.
You just showed that you have no fucking idea about living.
You are more likely bored person who never had to work or your parents are / were too busy so they didn't spend a lot of time with you and you ended up in some naive reality.
@tomve_cz @szczur I mean I grew up on a Farm in Northwestern Wisconsin, I'm now employed in the metal working industry in Metro Detroit. My entire life I've had to labor, and my parents where always spending time with me, as much as I would have rather rode my bike to town to hang out with my friends, working in the fields, selling at the farmers' market, etc.
Least racist euro
You don't live what we live so I don't think you can understand
And I live in Europe and it is very much not true.
Stop watching scaremongering news. It's not that bad.
Well I see what I see and I don't like it, a random stranger on the internet who thinks he's morally superior to me will not make me change idea
..is talking from my personal experience living around immigrants and minorities in an European country "acting morally superior" now?
c'mon.
why would living in a different part of the world effect one's morality?
Very easy actually, because they do not live the struggle they can easily say do this or do that but they don't really know what it's happening, just today a young girl, 12 yo, was raped by one of this immigrants, the crime rate went up a lot
rape is wrong, nothing changes that. Men rape women, do you want to deport all men?
Absolutely not only the one who do something wrong, as some as they are found guilty, seams reasonable enough to me, no? Unfortunately that would be the majority, but would make my country a better place
I think you missed the point there, they were talking about all men. If deportation prevents rape, that should, by your logic, endorse deporting any and all rapists. Also let's throw in there that rapists come in all genders, so basically prevention through group deportation would leave us with a pretty empty country. (And who would take us in, then, as that would make us migrants ourselves?)
Edit: I am unsure if I interpreted your comment as intended - with "only the one who do something wrong", were you refering to the sentenced migrants, or the sentenced men in general?
A while ago a guy was punched to death for being gay by a group of people with the same political opinions as you. Does that mean that you should be immediately deprived of your human rights? You can not compare every single inmigrant to something that happened one day.
When did I talk about the LGBTQ+ community? Obviously that is bad, you should not kill someone based on their sexual preference
obviously you are in the italian fedi istance, lmfao... fratm, io sono senza parole...
I joined this server because it was free unlike the official instance, with the people coming from reddit
For everyone who's giving me thumb down - https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2023®ion=150
@tomve_cz the only reason we have crime is because politicians keep making things illegal.
Big brain time 👏
Poor people commit crime - it’s a breakthrough!
You mean rich white people make laws to criminalize the normal behavior of minorities? :shocked_pikachu:
that's literally a willie horthon argument
That's reality
You know, I'm living in Poland and we have a pretty fucking big populace of foreigners and the most rapes and murders are statistically commited by polish males. By percent.
I think you're overexaggerating it a bit.