I am deeply pissed that they just keep on attempting. This is costing millions, for nothing. The EU should introduce a forced wait period for declined topics, as this here is the abuse of the democratic system.
Years ago, had a guy in the young democrats club try to spin lobbying in a positive light, I just kept asking why TF we needed legalized bribery in politics.
They will keep proposing solutions until the problem is solved. Notice how everytime its voted down they try a different idea? Thats how its supposed to work.
This is the same solution to the problem. By only proposing the same solution over and over it's pretty clear they just want full access to messaging. If it was actually about the children or security or whatever they would be attempting more privacy friendly alternatives
Lucky for me, it's my role or job to pitch them, and I do not need to pitch them to you. You are more than welcome to read the EFF's writeup on alternatives yourself.
Could you send the link to the writeup you're referencing?? I can't find it. There's a whole bunch of EFF pages about Chat Control, but I can't find one specifically about alternatives.
You're clearly trying to bait me into some argument which is why I have no interest in finding resources to show you. I'm not biting. I get some references, you try to tell me it's bunk or it won't work, I'm just not feeling it today. I don't feel like being trolled or pulled into your anger circle. So, won't respond anymore. Have a pleasant day!
Your source is about Canada. But okay, it can be used as an example, fair enough.
Those are citizen-initiated petitions. It works a bit different in the EU unfortunately
I personally believe that increasing the fee is the best, if you want to destroy democracy. A way better solution to this problem would be to increase the number of signatures needed, or in an EU petition the percentage of yea-sayers.
I always think of that scene from the simpsons where smithers and burns walk through 8 layers of security doors with various identification techniques, and then in the final room there's an old screen door hanging off its hinges to the outside.
At this point, I am ashamed of Denmark - one of the countries backing this idea (and if i am not misinformed the country who came up with it?). I have lived here for 30+ years and they do many things right, but recently the government has taken too many liberties and given itself way too much power to decide what people can do
This is also apparent on the opinion polls. The government (currently 3 more or less central parties) and especially the ruling party (theoretically left but sliding fast towards the center), have lost a lot of its backup from the public
I agree completely other than one important detail: while they sell themselves as center left, absolute center, and center right, the Danish government parties are in reality authoritarian right wing parties and have been for at least a decade and a half.
Especially when it comes to immigration policy and issues of state control/overreach like Chat Control.
You may be right. I am not very deep into DK politics, but to me, it seems like parties have transitioned to picking standing points from throughout the political range, as they see fit, and not have a standard stance depending on what side they are on. This, I feel is a good thing, and even though it appears to gather all parties in the center, it also gives them a wider and more nuanced approach.
Maybe placing political parties along a line, is no longer a valid approach
They did come up with this particular iteration, but the whole idea is inherited from previous EU administrations. It has been a long time goal of the EU to implement something like this. Doesn't excuse the Danish premiership though, as they could just as easily have dropped it, especially after the recent rejection, instead of adamantly keep changing the proposition until something sticks.
Very on par for Mette Frederiksen and her government in Denmark as well: Arrogant and authoritarian, seemingly with no care for the increasingly bad polling of which something like this doesn't help.
If the US has such a rule then it's not effective. Look at how many times the GOP tried to kill the ACA (or at least pass pointless statements denouncing it). It was at least into the 50s. Probably more than that. Instead of trying to pass useful, practical laws, politicians played the same theatrics over and over again.
I think we are too far gone... If you can't do it with all the free weapons you have on hand, how do you think it's going to work in Europe? America and the rest of the world is equally screwed. Maybe some 3rd world countries will be fine as they have greater issues than "some" privacy concerns:)
People are always trying to off the president. It's literally the most dangerous job in the U.S. That fuck is just really lucky and persists at not rolling a seven
I know there's tons of lists of all of the people who tried to take out Obama. I wonder if anyone's compiled that for this asshole's first term vs just the last year
Ah thanks for another interpretation. I often suck at this in text, so can I ask what makes you think that? I’m not doubting you, just trying to learn.
It's just a fairly common thing people say online about Americans. The comment in question says the exact same thing about Europeans AND specifies they're an American. Classic turnabout IMO.
Of course if you're not terminally online you might just not get the reference
It's the identification as an american. Americans just assume everyone knows they're american, so it stands out as an obvious extremifier to point out its satirical nature.
They have put down roots in the Brussels bureaucracy. Authoritarian theories are now dominant over democratic ones there. To weed them out, it would be necessary to elect leftist leaders who radically prefer leftist civil servants throughout Europe, which is now farther away from realisation than it has been for decades.
Oh my fucking god holy shit EU, you can have my dick picks, just shut the fuck up about Chat Control already. You don't have to pass any laws. I will email them to you. Just pipe the fuck down already.
there isn't really anything stating that posts should be memes, the name is a bit misleading because it came from whitepeopletwitter, which people wanted to make more general. Any microblog post is theoretically allowed as long as it follows the rules in the sidebar. This arguably counts as brand promotion/guerilla marketing, although I think the message is divorced enough from the brand to be acceptable.
Fuck that shit, I have news and politics subscriptions for that. There is no worse way to get info or opinions about actually important stuff than microblog.
I had to do the same thing. I spend a little time each day blocking and filtering out political posts here and I really didn't want to block this community.
Places like the threadiverse only work if people put stuff in the appropriate place. Creating more posts doesn't fix it when people fail to do that.
I'm not more informed than I was before because I don't trust anything from twatter to be anything other than paid-for propaganda. That doesn't matter if it's an actual meme or joke.
As EU citizen is there any way I can fight this?
I doubt contacting my country's representatives in the EU will help, considering the current political situation they can benefit more from this happening. Law enforcement is already known for abusing surveillance against political opponents, they are going to enjoy this.
Even if it is does not seem very promising, I think it is still important to point out to your representatives once again that their plans do not reflect the will of the people and that it is unacceptable to keep trying to push them through anyway.
As long as they continue to try, against all reason, to push this plan through without consulting the citizens, the population should express its rejection.
Unfortunately, I'm afraid there is not much else we can do other than inform our friends about this important issue and not let our representatives get away with it without protest.
Email templates and the addresses of representatives in all EU countries can be found here: Fight Chat Control
They have mass surveillance systems, now they want mass identification systems, then they'll want mass accountab suppression systems and then the internet is dead as medium of free expression and we lose the use of the greatest communication technology human beings have ever created, to disagree with our rulers.
Authoritarians will always try to capture more control under their bullshit hierarchy, this isn't a trade of liberties for societal safeties, it's trading privacy for oppression.
The only way to prevent this is to figure out a way to solve the problem of criminals using encrypted services, without it affecting those not committing crimes. If bad solutions keep getting voted down, eventually one that makes sense will be proposed.
It's so weird that this "logic" is applied to criminals using encryption/encrypted messaging platforms, but not really any other tool used by both criminals and non-criminals. Like, criminals use hammers and bricks to illegally smash windows, and yet there are no governing bodies out there trying to come up with "creative" solutions to regulate hammers and bricks, to create "backdoors" in hammers and bricks that make them ineffectual for doing crime but retain their original functions. Because that's impossible.
Instead, maybe what we should do is improve society somewhat so that people don't feel compelled to commit crimes. You know, the one thing that's been demonstrated time and time again to actually work.
Just for you to know, it will not solve a problem since it is relatevly easy to create an encrypted mail or chat system from scratch, server part of which would be hosted on some random cheap web service platform and a customer service would be installed as app or exe on desired devices. It literally takes like a few hours, especially with help of modern AI. I am not talking about hight quality UI and all comfort features, just pure functionality and basic needs are very easy and fast to organize. And then simply share the copies of such app and credentials to access specific info channels with other people you need. That is all. Such system would be hard to even find because of its small scale and decentralization. And even if it will be tracked down, it is still would be manually encrypted, what means that dialogs will not be easily hacked anyway.
So this law is simply a part of a total cyber control program masked under "righteous intentions".
I am deeply pissed that they just keep on attempting. This is costing millions, for nothing. The EU should introduce a forced wait period for declined topics, as this here is the abuse of the democratic system.
Agreed - This feels like "we will keep voting on this until we pass it"
politicians to lobbyists: we just need a little more money to pass this
Years ago, had a guy in the young democrats club try to spin lobbying in a positive light, I just kept asking why TF we needed legalized bribery in politics.
Yeah, it feels like that because that's exactly what it is. It's a huge waste of time and money.
Accept chat control?
Do you want chat control?: Yes | Remind me in 3 days
They will keep proposing solutions until the problem is solved. Notice how everytime its voted down they try a different idea? Thats how its supposed to work.
Feel free to keep voting it down then.
It's not us who's voting on these issues. It's pretty obvious you don't understand how the process works. Why do you keep discussing it?
Except the "problem" they're trying to solve is to enable them to sueveil anyone.
Encyption for them, not for you.
The problem they want to "solve" is the ability to surveil everyone, which is impossible as long as netcat and gpg exist
Sounds a bit conspiratorial to me but thats just my opinion on it.
This is the same solution to the problem. By only proposing the same solution over and over it's pretty clear they just want full access to messaging. If it was actually about the children or security or whatever they would be attempting more privacy friendly alternatives
Do you have an example of a privacy friendly alternative?
Lucky for me, it's my role or job to pitch them, and I do not need to pitch them to you. You are more than welcome to read the EFF's writeup on alternatives yourself.
Could you send the link to the writeup you're referencing?? I can't find it. There's a whole bunch of EFF pages about Chat Control, but I can't find one specifically about alternatives.
Wow very helpful. Thanks for advocating for your cause so effectively. Clearly your rhetoric will win the day.
You're clearly trying to bait me into some argument which is why I have no interest in finding resources to show you. I'm not biting. I get some references, you try to tell me it's bunk or it won't work, I'm just not feeling it today. I don't feel like being trolled or pulled into your anger circle. So, won't respond anymore. Have a pleasant day!
And the problem Here is what exactly?
Or just do what we are doing, but in reverse!
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/citizen-petition-referendum-increase-9.7021761
Thanks though for the input, I liked it.
Any "secure system" with a deliberate backdoor (no matter who it's for) is not a secure system.
I always think of that scene from the simpsons where smithers and burns walk through 8 layers of security doors with various identification techniques, and then in the final room there's an old screen door hanging off its hinges to the outside.
and isn't homer sitting inside eating a sandwich?
Very similar, but not exactly the same episode. That one he was sitting in the core eating a sandwich, but very close :)
I just realized that he showed up twice! I've seen both gags a hundred times and never put together that he was the same guy!
You know who should have showed up more? Tibor. Also Stuart. They were great.
Good old Tibor. What do you mean he was promoted?
It was a dog, not Homer.
At this point, I am ashamed of Denmark - one of the countries backing this idea (and if i am not misinformed the country who came up with it?). I have lived here for 30+ years and they do many things right, but recently the government has taken too many liberties and given itself way too much power to decide what people can do
This is also apparent on the opinion polls. The government (currently 3 more or less central parties) and especially the ruling party (theoretically left but sliding fast towards the center), have lost a lot of its backup from the public
https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/meningsmaalinger
I agree completely other than one important detail: while they sell themselves as center left, absolute center, and center right, the Danish government parties are in reality authoritarian right wing parties and have been for at least a decade and a half.
Especially when it comes to immigration policy and issues of state control/overreach like Chat Control.
You may be right. I am not very deep into DK politics, but to me, it seems like parties have transitioned to picking standing points from throughout the political range, as they see fit, and not have a standard stance depending on what side they are on. This, I feel is a good thing, and even though it appears to gather all parties in the center, it also gives them a wider and more nuanced approach.
Maybe placing political parties along a line, is no longer a valid approach
They did come up with this particular iteration, but the whole idea is inherited from previous EU administrations. It has been a long time goal of the EU to implement something like this. Doesn't excuse the Danish premiership though, as they could just as easily have dropped it, especially after the recent rejection, instead of adamantly keep changing the proposition until something sticks.
Very on par for Mette Frederiksen and her government in Denmark as well: Arrogant and authoritarian, seemingly with no care for the increasingly bad polling of which something like this doesn't help.
Does the EU not have any sort of rule or directive against trying to vote the same thing 12345 times? Heck, IIRC even the US has that one.
Friggin' Theseus's Chat Control.
The same thing? I thinks so
But nothing stopping you to charge it a tiny bit and try again
If the US has such a rule then it's not effective. Look at how many times the GOP tried to kill the ACA (or at least pass pointless statements denouncing it). It was at least into the 50s. Probably more than that. Instead of trying to pass useful, practical laws, politicians played the same theatrics over and over again.
did they officially vote on it? Often they try to find their majority before the vote and if they dont get it, they wont vote on it.
Okay, Europeans, when is someone gonna nut up and take these fascists out!?
We can't even take out our own fascists.....
And neither can they, apparently.
They have been taken out over and over.
But democracy demands we let them try.
I think we are too far gone... If you can't do it with all the free weapons you have on hand, how do you think it's going to work in Europe? America and the rest of the world is equally screwed. Maybe some 3rd world countries will be fine as they have greater issues than "some" privacy concerns:)
Said the American who can't take Trump out.
People are always trying to off the president. It's literally the most dangerous job in the U.S. That fuck is just really lucky and persists at not rolling a seven
I know there's tons of lists of all of the people who tried to take out Obama. I wonder if anyone's compiled that for this asshole's first term vs just the last year
Stones and glass houses here a little bit mate
Pretty sure it's poking fun at all the Europeans who say the same thing on here to every American.
Ah thanks for another interpretation. I often suck at this in text, so can I ask what makes you think that? I’m not doubting you, just trying to learn.
Is it the interrobang?
It's... More of an art than a science.
It's just a fairly common thing people say online about Americans. The comment in question says the exact same thing about Europeans AND specifies they're an American. Classic turnabout IMO.
Of course if you're not terminally online you might just not get the reference
It's the identification as an american. Americans just assume everyone knows they're american, so it stands out as an obvious extremifier to point out its satirical nature.
With pleasure.
They have put down roots in the Brussels bureaucracy. Authoritarian theories are now dominant over democratic ones there. To weed them out, it would be necessary to elect leftist leaders who radically prefer leftist civil servants throughout Europe, which is now farther away from realisation than it has been for decades.
Oh my fucking god holy shit EU, you can have my dick picks, just shut the fuck up about Chat Control already. You don't have to pass any laws. I will email them to you. Just pipe the fuck down already.
Wait... How is this a meme? It just seems like a PSA.
And if it is, why is it worthy of this community?
there isn't really anything stating that posts should be memes, the name is a bit misleading because it came from whitepeopletwitter, which people wanted to make more general. Any microblog post is theoretically allowed as long as it follows the rules in the sidebar. This arguably counts as brand promotion/guerilla marketing, although I think the message is divorced enough from the brand to be acceptable.
Fuck that shit, I have news and politics subscriptions for that. There is no worse way to get info or opinions about actually important stuff than microblog.
Sounds like this is not the place for you then.
I looked at the current posts and nope, looks like the op just chose something shit/posted it to an inappropriate community.
I had to do the same thing. I spend a little time each day blocking and filtering out political posts here and I really didn't want to block this community.
Places like the threadiverse only work if people put stuff in the appropriate place. Creating more posts doesn't fix it when people fail to do that.
I'm not more informed than I was before because I don't trust anything from twatter to be anything other than paid-for propaganda. That doesn't matter if it's an actual meme or joke.
As EU citizen is there any way I can fight this? I doubt contacting my country's representatives in the EU will help, considering the current political situation they can benefit more from this happening. Law enforcement is already known for abusing surveillance against political opponents, they are going to enjoy this.
Even if it is does not seem very promising, I think it is still important to point out to your representatives once again that their plans do not reflect the will of the people and that it is unacceptable to keep trying to push them through anyway.
As long as they continue to try, against all reason, to push this plan through without consulting the citizens, the population should express its rejection.
Unfortunately, I'm afraid there is not much else we can do other than inform our friends about this important issue and not let our representatives get away with it without protest.
Email templates and the addresses of representatives in all EU countries can be found here: Fight Chat Control
Educate your friends and relatives and write your representatives at every level. It’s only a small difference but it’s something.
The only way you personally can fight it will end with you dead or in prison.
We have, thankfully, not yet fallen to the US's level of tyranny
They have mass surveillance systems, now they want mass identification systems, then they'll want mass
accountabsuppression systems and then the internet is dead as medium of free expression and we lose the use of the greatest communication technology human beings have ever created, to disagree with our rulers.There are reasons why I strongly support Mullvad. This is one of them.
Authoritarians will always try to capture more control under their bullshit hierarchy, this isn't a trade of liberties for societal safeties, it's trading privacy for oppression.
Any protest for this by our fellow Europeans?
Have they lost? Don't we get voluntary chat control that is strongly recommended or rather recommanded for high risk chat?
The only way to prevent this is to figure out a way to solve the problem of criminals using encrypted services, without it affecting those not committing crimes. If bad solutions keep getting voted down, eventually one that makes sense will be proposed.
It's so weird that this "logic" is applied to criminals using encryption/encrypted messaging platforms, but not really any other tool used by both criminals and non-criminals. Like, criminals use hammers and bricks to illegally smash windows, and yet there are no governing bodies out there trying to come up with "creative" solutions to regulate hammers and bricks, to create "backdoors" in hammers and bricks that make them ineffectual for doing crime but retain their original functions. Because that's impossible.
Instead, maybe what we should do is improve society somewhat so that people don't feel compelled to commit crimes. You know, the one thing that's been demonstrated time and time again to actually work.
Guns are a better example. Thieving tools is another.
Not really, those examples have the same faults as hammers and bricks.
I guess we shouldn't attempt to restrict them then huh.
Are you being purposely obtuse, or did you just not read my comment?
Probably the latter.
Good luck with that.
Just for you to know, it will not solve a problem since it is relatevly easy to create an encrypted mail or chat system from scratch, server part of which would be hosted on some random cheap web service platform and a customer service would be installed as app or exe on desired devices. It literally takes like a few hours, especially with help of modern AI. I am not talking about hight quality UI and all comfort features, just pure functionality and basic needs are very easy and fast to organize. And then simply share the copies of such app and credentials to access specific info channels with other people you need. That is all. Such system would be hard to even find because of its small scale and decentralization. And even if it will be tracked down, it is still would be manually encrypted, what means that dialogs will not be easily hacked anyway.
So this law is simply a part of a total cyber control program masked under "righteous intentions".
Still harder than using signal.