Windows Updates are always like that. Halfway through it's got to restart, bootloader picks Linux, Windows doesn't get to finish the other half of its update til the next time it's chosen.
Yeah and in linux when you say "kill this process" that process fucking dies. No 10 minutes of windows trying to negotiating with a crashed program to close. No I'm not angry about this happening to me at work today, why do you ask?
Both Windows and Linux have ways to gracefully ask a program to close and to force close it. Not being able to select the correct one on either system is a skill issue.
I am not sure how Windows handles processes, but on Linux you have different signals. SIGKILL (9) generally kills the process immediately, but there are other signals like SIGTERM (the default signal, 1) which asks process to gracefully quit, and many others.
I had such an issue with Teams on Mac the other day. It had a phone call stuck running in the background, so I tried to Quit the app. The Quit Teams option just turned gray, and the laptop even refused to reboot.
Managed to wreck my NVMe drive with an unsafe shutdown on linux the other week, gave it a few hours for the self check, booted back into the distro and has been running fine ever since.
Pretty sure windows would've just set the computer on fire at this point.
I was talking about a laptop with non-removable battery of course! I turn off my desktop via Zigbee remote hooked to Home Assistant which flips a Zigbee power switch that the AC power cord is hooked up to. Even faster death than going under the desk and unplugging the power cord. Even just unplugging itself takes time.
This is so fucking annoying. Whenever you try to run something not clearly meant for the desktop, there is like a 80/20 chance that you can completely forget suspend...
No. It will boot the previous kernel, but the user experience will be at least suboptimal if some packages have already been removed during the upgrade, but the upgrade stopped at some point because a downloaded package was corrupt, leaving lots of dependent packages unconfigured. In case networking doesn't work, it's also inconvenient to manually download the affected package on another machine and transfer it with a usb stick onto the computer to restart the upgrade.
Assuming you enter your password upon running sudo, isn't there the risk of sudo's privilege timing out if pacman takes too long to complete? I believe I tried something similar, intending to run a one-liner I could start then walk away from. However, I ended up returning to see the system not rebooted hours later.
Or is yes somehow supposed to take care of this? Sorry, newish Debian user here who hasn't ventured outside the distribution much.
There's no timeout for sudo. When permitted, a process runs as root and then closes.
Also, the system will still shutdown when update fails because pipes do not care if previous commands exit with a nonzero code, unless pipefail is set.
The command after && runs only if the previous command returns non-error exit status (0), if pacman returns error the latter command won't be executed.
Additionally there's probably a configuration option for sudo for it to not time out, but it doesn't matter since you can just use systemctl reboot as a normal user to reboot your system (at least on Debian). If that's too long I recommend to add this to your .bashrc (if you use Bash): alias reb='systemctl reboot' or something similar.
Maybe this is just a yay thing but I think if sudo priveleges run out while downloading the files it prompts you for your password again before performing the changes. That would lead to it either trying to use the yes output or getting stuck in the password prompt, only failing in the prior.
This entire problem could be solved by just running it as the root user.
On my work PC I disabled automatic restarts and I'll just hibernate it for weeks at a time, keeping my work stuff open. Convenient, and I can install updates when I choose to.
It's much less risky than it used to be. Journaling filesystems reduce the risk of filesystem corruption to near zero and are fairly ubiquitous now on non-removable media.
Fair enough. My experience on Mac has been pretty bad compared to Windows but to be honest there could be recency bias there. I use Mac every day for work and don't use Windows very often but at least Windows has never suddenly closed all my apps because it decided it was time to update.
I think you got lucky then, windows is known to do exactly that. Well, these days it at least gives you a warning that it will do it in 15 minutes or so.
That is crazy because that’s literally what windows is known for haha. My wife’s gaming computer has restarted probably six times just this year without her wanting to just to install updates.
What I’m guessing is happening is that your work has MDM enabled on your device and forces the updates through. That’s exactly what happened with the Mac work computers I’ve had while my home Mac laptops have never done that.
Yeah it sounds like I'm just out of touch with the modern Windows usage experience by the sound of it. It really sucks that it's gotten so bad, I would be so pissed off if that happened when I was playing a game or something.
One thing I've seen my computer do a few times: log me out, by itself. Some rare times I try and unlock back into my session, my current open and active user with my programs running, and instead I am greeted not by my desktop as it was when I locked the screen, but rather the lock screen as it was before I even logged in the first time around
for the most part i don't care, but really, all those fucking terminals i left open, i know they're open, that click per window of yes close has never been helpful
i'll prob just start running pkill konsole before shutdown. was thinking of pkexec /sbin/shutdown -h now on a button, but it is kind of nice having some of my apps recover on reboot.
it’s real easy. if you tell me your distro and send me your lsblk output when it’s setup how you like i can send you what to put in fstab to persist it. better for system management, better for the puter. gotta reboot more often :)
If you want something easy, you can install one of the "Just Works" distros. Even though Manjaro advertises themself as beginner-friendly, they certainly are far from it.
Debian was a horrible choice actually, my laptop's WiFi card didn't have a kernel driver available at the time. Tracking down the correct one was an interesting journey by itself, getting it compiled and loaded was another. In my 20 years of Linux experience I've compiled my fair share of drivers from source, but this thing was a complete disaster and simply refused to work.
I even tried Ubuntu (still feel dirty about that one): also no support out of the box.
So I needed a rolling release, as kernel support would drop fairly soon. Being downstream from Arch I reckoned any major issues will be worked out in Manjaro before hitting their release.
So far I'm actually quite happy with it, my only gripe is the stability of Pamac. The frontend tends to hang during updates from time to time or require a manual database update to show available updates again.
And of course the issue with packages not building anymore, until you clear the build cache. The (bi-) weekly reboots because of kernel updates are annoying, but something I can live with.
My Windows is more like "I am scheduling the restart. Pray I don't schedule it any sooner."
Mine will do the restart and boot into Linux.
Windows Updates are always like that. Halfway through it's got to restart, bootloader picks Linux, Windows doesn't get to finish the other half of its update til the next time it's chosen.
Is Linux higher in your boot priority?
Linux is higher in any priority.
Always has been.
When I had a dualboot, that's how I ordered it.
You can configure Grub to boot into whichever entry you last selected. Makes rebooting much more convenient
you know you can make it so the last used OS gets booted right?
yay rEFInd
Same
I like how you censored systemd
People need to learn that it's ok to say systemd on the Internet and stop self censoring
Let's not get carried away. Fuck and shit are ok, but I draw the line at s*****d
init.dstraight to jailYes, let's keep this community family friendly. I could do without such obscenities.
system deez nuts
This is just not true.
Yeah and in linux when you say "kill this process" that process fucking dies. No 10 minutes of windows trying to negotiating with a crashed program to close. No I'm not angry about this happening to me at work today, why do you ask?
Both Windows and Linux have ways to gracefully ask a program to close and to force close it. Not being able to select the correct one on either system is a skill issue.
I am not sure how Windows handles processes, but on Linux you have different signals.
SIGKILL(9) generally kills the process immediately, but there are other signals likeSIGTERM(the default signal, 1) which asks process to gracefully quit, and many others.If you want to know more, check the
signal(7)man page or this Wikipedia page.And when chrome freezes rest of the desktop goes gray and everyrhing else freezes too including the task manager.
Fuck me that's ugly.
I had such an issue with Teams on Mac the other day. It had a phone call stuck running in the background, so I tried to Quit the app. The Quit Teams option just turned gray, and the laptop even refused to reboot.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crash-only_software
I am one of lucky 10 000 Thanks
same here!
Same
Windows just randomly installing updates only when I'm working on something with a customer.
one of the reasons I'm moving away. pisses me off so much at work, I don't even want it at home
Managed to wreck my NVMe drive with an unsafe shutdown on linux the other week, gave it a few hours for the self check, booted back into the distro and has been running fine ever since.
Pretty sure windows would've just set the computer on fire at this point.
Linux is so strong I turn it off from the power button. Saving 5 seconds.
I’m a little spoiled by this. I did it on Windows and had to rebuild the boot partition.
That's weak. I always pull on the power cord until the plug comes out. That shuts it down in a second flat.
I was talking about a laptop with non-removable battery of course! I turn off my desktop via Zigbee remote hooked to Home Assistant which flips a Zigbee power switch that the AC power cord is hooked up to. Even faster death than going under the desk and unplugging the power cord. Even just unplugging itself takes time.
That random systemd service waiting 1.5 minutes.
You all not suspend/hibernate?
Yeah, I was thinking that. I wish we had a button (other than power off) to stop the service immediately.
This is so fucking annoying. Whenever you try to run something not clearly meant for the desktop, there is like a 80/20 chance that you can completely forget suspend...
Mine suspends immediately.
I do
yes | sudo pacman -Syu && sudo poweroff(Update and poweroff)
Fuck that noise
sudo shutdown 0turn off NOW bitch!I prefer shutdown now gives me a feeling of power
"&&" will only run shutdown if the update runs correctly.
I do ";" to definitely run the shutdown after the update process exits. (Don't want to keep the system running if nothing is happening any more.)
If you're able to successfully boot the machine afterwards is not your concern?
what's fun in a successfully booting system? we are arch users for a reason!
Well, as I'm using Debian, maybe I'm a more cautious type.
I don't know about arch but my system usually boots fine after an upgrade. (Gentoo here)
If the update is successful. If there are failures in critical steps, well...
Doesn't it roll back to a previous state then?
No. It will boot the previous kernel, but the user experience will be at least suboptimal if some packages have already been removed during the upgrade, but the upgrade stopped at some point because a downloaded package was corrupt, leaving lots of dependent packages unconfigured. In case networking doesn't work, it's also inconvenient to manually download the affected package on another machine and transfer it with a usb stick onto the computer to restart the upgrade.
I do "|" so it updates and shuts down at the same time
You don't need sudo to run poweroff on Arch, provided there's no other users logged into the system
And it's a login shell.
Assuming you enter your password upon running
sudo, isn't there the risk ofsudo's privilege timing out ifpacmantakes too long to complete? I believe I tried something similar, intending to run a one-liner I could start then walk away from. However, I ended up returning to see the system not rebooted hours later.Or is
yessomehow supposed to take care of this? Sorry, newish Debian user here who hasn't ventured outside the distribution much.Yes, in this
commandone liner, the system should not power off when the update took too long.No,
yesis simply answering all questions asked during the update procedure (start upgrade, replace config files, restart services) with "yes".There's no timeout for sudo. When permitted, a process runs as root and then closes.Also, the system will still shutdown when update fails because pipes do not care if previous commands exit with a nonzero code, unlesspipefailis set.Edit: i'm blind.
The command after
&&runs only if the previous command returns non-error exit status (0), ifpacmanreturns error the latter command won't be executed.Additionally there's probably a configuration option for
sudofor it to not time out, but it doesn't matter since you can just usesystemctl rebootas a normal user to reboot your system (at least on Debian). If that's too long I recommend to add this to your.bashrc(if you use Bash):alias reb='systemctl reboot'or something similar.Maybe this is just a
yaything but I think if sudo priveleges run out while downloading the files it prompts you for your password again before performing the changes. That would lead to it either trying to use theyesoutput or getting stuck in the password prompt, only failing in the prior.This entire problem could be solved by just running it as the root user.
ya'll aint just pulling out the power plug?
I flip the breaker whenever it's time to shut down.
I flip the breakers so I can keep the power plug connected
I take an axe to my power meter. I want everything shutdown.
It's a screenshot of a screenshot in a video? What's that shield?
https://sponsor.ajay.app/
Ah I completely forgot that it was a separate extension, I only use it in smarttube 😂
It's a screenshot of a video that I did
You did the screenshot, or the video? Or both?
screenshot
On my work PC I disabled automatic restarts and I'll just hibernate it for weeks at a time, keeping my work stuff open. Convenient, and I can install updates when I choose to.
goddamn generation loss-ass meme.
Y'all don't delete WSUS, block all of the M$ IPs at both your HOSTS file and your router, and stop all update processes?
Do you even know how Windows works?
I don't really, I just use Linux
Fair. I have two identical PCs. One is Win10, the other is Mint. Saves on figuring out dual-booting.
I just spin up a VM if I really need Windows for something. Haven't needed it for some years but it's good to have it just in case
me turning off the power supply: (i didn't have anything open so hopefully it's fine...)
It's much less risky than it used to be. Journaling filesystems reduce the risk of filesystem corruption to near zero and are fairly ubiquitous now on non-removable media.
I thought the Windows update system is actually not too bad. At least compared to Mac.
Yea, it has a robust rollback system, which is part of why it takes so long now.
But... I only do updates a couple times a year to minimize the headache on my personal machines.
My work machines it's not my problem, but I reboot them at night a couple times a week, just in case.
Compared to Mac? Mac’s is so much better? The number of times windows has fucked me over by updating on a restart.
Fair enough. My experience on Mac has been pretty bad compared to Windows but to be honest there could be recency bias there. I use Mac every day for work and don't use Windows very often but at least Windows has never suddenly closed all my apps because it decided it was time to update.
I think you got lucky then, windows is known to do exactly that. Well, these days it at least gives you a warning that it will do it in 15 minutes or so.
That is crazy because that’s literally what windows is known for haha. My wife’s gaming computer has restarted probably six times just this year without her wanting to just to install updates.
What I’m guessing is happening is that your work has MDM enabled on your device and forces the updates through. That’s exactly what happened with the Mac work computers I’ve had while my home Mac laptops have never done that.
Yeah it sounds like I'm just out of touch with the modern Windows usage experience by the sound of it. It really sucks that it's gotten so bad, I would be so pissed off if that happened when I was playing a game or something.
Windows after pressing shutdown and update: you wanted to use me still right????
Shutdown isn't shutdown anymore, so it has to reboot for the updates. After the reboot, though, there's no longer a shutdown pending.
One thing I've seen my computer do a few times: log me out, by itself. Some rare times I try and unlock back into my session, my current open and active user with my programs running, and instead I am greeted not by my desktop as it was when I locked the screen, but rather the lock screen as it was before I even logged in the first time around
windows: installing updates, do not power off
me: the fuck you are dismantles laptop and rips out battery
Linux: shutdown now
for the most part i don't care, but really, all those fucking terminals i left open, i know they're open, that click per window of yes close has never been helpful
The program 'btop' is currently running in this session. Are you sure you want to close it?
i'll prob just start running pkill konsole before shutdown. was thinking of pkexec /sbin/shutdown -h now on a button, but it is kind of nice having some of my apps recover on reboot.
I just don't shutdown until I get a big backlog of updates. I have to remount my SSD with my games on it every time, then tell steam.
what? why? can you not persist your mounting scheme in the fstab? sorry if i’m being ignorant just genuinely wondering
I blew up the OS a few times doing that wrong. I'll just hit the mount button. Good enough.
it’s real easy. if you tell me your distro and send me your lsblk output when it’s setup how you like i can send you what to put in fstab to persist it. better for system management, better for the puter. gotta reboot more often :)
I used to override that setting.
I...uh...learned some uses for it.
I bet there were interesting uses.
I won't say i've never shut down a long running process, but i've gotten a lot better at not running them adhoc in a terminal :)
Just do sysrq+s, sysrq+c (triggers panic) and flip the power switch for instant power off.
Meanwhile:
My W11 Pro PC: I'll wait installing my monthly updates until you give me the okay. And I'll wait for the reboot until you say so.
My Manjaro laptop: sorry, I couldn't build package X. Go f*ck yourself while I provide you with no information on how to fix this.
*A manual build cache clear later*: all good! But now perform our weekly reboot.
It's ironic, but these days Windows updates actually give me less issues AND require less reboots than Manjaro. 😞
The problem there is the word "Manjaro"
Unfortunately while they market themselves as beginner friendly that's simply not true
If you want something easy, you can install one of the "Just Works" distros. Even though Manjaro advertises themself as beginner-friendly, they certainly are far from it.
Debian and PopOS are both great choices.
Debian was a horrible choice actually, my laptop's WiFi card didn't have a kernel driver available at the time. Tracking down the correct one was an interesting journey by itself, getting it compiled and loaded was another. In my 20 years of Linux experience I've compiled my fair share of drivers from source, but this thing was a complete disaster and simply refused to work.
I even tried Ubuntu (still feel dirty about that one): also no support out of the box.
So I needed a rolling release, as kernel support would drop fairly soon. Being downstream from Arch I reckoned any major issues will be worked out in Manjaro before hitting their release.
So far I'm actually quite happy with it, my only gripe is the stability of Pamac. The frontend tends to hang during updates from time to time or require a manual database update to show available updates again.
And of course the issue with packages not building anymore, until you clear the build cache. The (bi-) weekly reboots because of kernel updates are annoying, but something I can live with.
You should give Endeavour OS a try
Or Mint