Anon conflates the desire for a more involved and expanded social life with just having sex, thereby perfectly explaining their lack of a more involved and expanded social life.
That’s definitely a decent chunk of what people in the media who talk about the ‘male loneliness epidemic’ are talking about, though. I don’t think I’ve read a single article about it that doesn’t devote time to how little sex young men allegedly aren’t having.
The irony is that there's a chance it might be true.
Sex doesn't necessarily mean very much. But, they've convinced themselves it's massively important. Being a virgin defines them, and it's proof that their life is a failure. If they can lose their virginity, they might be able to convince themselves that they're now in a new category. If they can get away from the various toxic influences, maybe they can become more likeable people, and be less lonely as a result.
This entire post is precisely the problem. The fact that everyone here is conflating sex with mental health support is the reason why men's mental health isn't being taken seriously.
Men are not socialized to, and even actively discouraged from being emotionally vulnerable with each other.
We won't need men doing more fucking, we need men to sit down together and talk about their depression, and we need other men to be supportive and not downplay these conversations with sexist or homophobic slurs.
Exactly what I interpreted from this too. Posting a bunch of stats on sex and marriage as if they're a remedy for loneliness ignores the fact that people absolutely can feel lonely while having both.
Men do absolutely need to be better with each other but women do perpetuate this also.
The modern concept of masculinity is completely broken. Long ago it used to be about being a protector, now it's about anger, dominance, power, emotional dysregulation, resource hoarding (most of which provide little benefit to society at large).
A co-worker keept telling me he knows what's wrong with me and that I just need to fuck. I so wanted to strangle him, because I'd imagine that would make you less focused.
Another keeps insisting I grab (a married co-worker) by the pussy.
The fact that everyone here is conflating sex with mental health support is the reason why men's mental health isn't being taken seriously.
The comments are taking the lead from the greentext that forms the basis for this post, and taking any greentext seriously is basically the original sin here.
we need men to sit down together and talk about their depression
I have a friend who hosts a men's support group through his Brazilian Jujitsu Dojo. And I think the fact that this club exists is great for everyone involved. But holy shit is it depressing to visit a club full of guys who are just harping on their depression.
Like, we all need a time and a place to unload. But we do also need a time and a place to have some fun. The best thing for my depression, getting out of college, was hanging with people my age and doing social activities together. BBQs, dance halls, board game nights, house parties, concerts and clubs - all great for relaxing and socializing.
we need other men to be supportive and not downplay these conversations with sexist or homophobic slurs
Also nice when people can feel safe to joke and laugh with each other.
TBF, they seem closely correlated. It seems unlikely (though not impossible) that you'll find the emotional intimacy we expect from romantic relationships but won't get any sex.
Honestly the people that make me feel not lonely are not the ones I have sex with. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket; that’s how you end up in a codependent mess. Loneliness isn’t about romantic partners only, and friendships can be the most fulfilling things.
Strongly disagree. I've met far too many young men that see sex as a means to an often self serving end. Sex is a means of expressing love towards another person, it's not meant for self gratification. Seeing it that way is a recipe to have a lot of meaningless sex only to be left wondering why you feel so empty.
Theres a reason women generally don't climax from being jackhammered or even from clitoral stimualtion in many situations. They're coded for that emotional connection as a prerequisite for good sex. We are coded that way too but modern culture has painted that type of vulnerability as "unmanly".
In my view, a strong emotional connection creates the necessary conditions for good sex. But you don't need good sex to have a strong emotional connection.
Men can end their loneliness epidemic by getting their priorities straight.
I never said that you can't have sex without emotional intimacy. But the kind of emotional intimacy you get in a good romantic relationship is something that in our society your relatively unlikely to get outside of such a relationship, at least if you're a man. Not impossible, and it should be more common, but right now it's just not, especially for men.
Some just gotta have sex before they can acknowlege that it might not be all their life is missing. Teenage hormones are so over-the-top, its a wonder so many of these men live long enough to voice their beliefs from the older age brackets.
That is sex. You can have all the sex you want and still be lonely.
Those stats are probably the "we asked some people" kind which means everyone who had their first relationship at 24 will say that "oh yeah technically i was with that random girl in grade school so you know what lets say its 12"
That's definitely one sense, and the one that's actually an issue. But I've read enough headlines and yt subject lines to pick up on there also being some muddying of the waters with romantic female companionship. Or rather lack thereof as being a key part of the crisis.
With modern contraceptive technology we can have sex thats completely meaningless, where both parties are trying to achieve a deeper connection (to something, not even necessarily to each other) and misguidedly hope it can be achieved through a simple release. Its almost dystopian.
Yeah. Even if we assume that the average age was 1 or 2 years higher when I was that age, there's no way that the numbers in my highschool class where anywhere close to that. Out of like 16 guys, I know of only a couple who even had a girlfriend while in school, which is probably more likely than casual sex at that age.
It's not sex when your sexual exploration amounts to masturbating and ogling people, though. It's possible that my classmates who had sex just didn't tell me, but most of the ones I was actually friends with definitely didn't have sex in highschool.
Plenty could have relationships outside school that they didn't talk much about.
I had my first sex at 16 and first relationships at 11, and my classmates weren't even remotely aware of how rich of a romantic/sexual life I already had, or that I had it at all.
I wasn't known as someone particularly likeable, either.
>It's not just about getting laid (though that's part of it.)
>It's also about friends
>But even in the "getting laid" part, it's moreso about a real emotional connection in conjunction with the sex, I believe they're called "relationships."
>while some is just incels, it's also normal people
>If we had more Third Spaces that aren't centered around booze and money, it'd go a long way to helping the issue
>it's not just men.
There's a difference between having had sex and not being lonely... If these idiots would stop equating being lonely to not getting laid there wouldn't be so much resistance to the idea that there is a problem. Yeah, not being able to find someone to have sex with sucks but there's a whole lot of other shit missing that comes before that. If your only problem is not getting laid you're not lonely you're horny.
If these idiots would stop equating being lonely to not getting laid there wouldn't be so much resistance to the idea that there is a problem.
The problem is that the vast majority of the time whenever you logically breakdown the actual complaints being put forth by people supporting the idea of a "male loneliness epidemic" they usually boil down to "i deserve sex", or some other misogynistic ideology centered around blaming others for their misanthropy.
Once you start asking questions like who is responsible for male loneliness? What's the solution for male loneliness? Why are we specifying it as a gender specific epidemic? If there are so many men unified in loneliness, why not just befriend each other......?
Usually the answers themselves will just be accusations of misandry or just beligerence. And then if they actually engage with any kind of honesty or self reflection, you will usually get down to "I deserve female companionship".....but it's totally not about sex. But also there's a difference between female friends and having a girlfriend.... But it's totally not about sex.
It isn’t a male loneliness epidemic, it’s a loneliness epidemic. You’re never going to get satisfying answers to your questions if you accept the framing that it’s a male loneliness epidemic.
It’s a loneliness epidemic for everyone.
Focusing on the arguments of people who have no understanding of the topic and are just spreading toxicity is pointless; but pretending that there isn’t a loneliness epidemic because it’s used to power some incel memes is contributing to the apathy about this issue which is causing harm to both men and women.
It isn’t a male loneliness epidemic, it’s a loneliness epidemic. You’re never going to get satisfying answers to your questions if you accept the framing that it’s a male loneliness epidemic.
My criticism was precisely aimed at people specifically claiming it to be a male loneliness epidemic.....?
but pretending that there isn’t a loneliness epidemic because it’s used to power some incel memes is contributing to the apathy about this issue which is causing harm to both men and women.
I never claimed there wasn't a loneliness epidemic, just that there isn't a male loneliness epidemic.
Yup. the sexual loneliness epidemic is easing up, because we're all fighting back to 'normal'. But ask most men this simple question: how many non-sexual friends do you have in your life that you communicate with more than once a week?
Or even “I think it would be nice to talk to you in more detail, but it’s really difficult to summarize my entire mental state in a short sentence, so to avoid you and I the headache, I’m just gonna say fine.”
That's the hell of it, but if you feel lonely at a base level, I suggest you try to find or start community events. You'd be amazed how effective Meetup is.
I don't really have a way to deal with that. I have my own issues, but I do fight past them to try being social whenever I can. The biggest thing I can say is to find groups who do voice & video chats more often.
Is it normal to talk to friends more than once a week? That seems like a strange standard imo. Even my besties and I touch base maybe once or twice a month at most, and see eachother once every 4 to 6 months.
That sounds normal to me, but it’s worth noting that when we were under Covid lockdown, I didn’t understand how so many people freaked out about it. I’ve always been sucky at social interactions and pretty much always felt lonely as a baseline. It’s like I’d been training for lockdown my entire life. Seeing others lose their minds trying to live the way I’ve always lived was quite awkward.
Which means for many people, your/my standards for social contact are way too infrequent. I don’t know what an average measurement would be, but it’s clear that our “normal” can’t be most people’s “normal.”
Is it normal to talk to friends more than once a week?
Yes. It's very normal to talk to several friends per day, and to see several friends each week. Rotating through one's universe of friends, that might mean that there are a few friends you talk to at least a few times per week, some that you talk to a few times per month, and a some that you talk to a few times per year. And maybe you actually meet up in person a few times so that you're still seeing friends in person every week.
That level frequency isn't necessary, but it's kinda shocking to me that your comment suggests that you find it surprising that many other people are doing this.
I think that level of interaction might be normal in adolescence and even young adulthood, but by the time you're working, living on your own, and maybe have a family I really don't think most people talk to their friends that often.
I'm in my 40's, and I have children. My wife and I both work full time jobs that require regular travel and responsibilities outside of normal business hours.
I have probably 5-10 chat threads in different apps that I maintain with different friend groups. Some are just stupid meme exchanges, but they're also a regular way to keep in touch with people about their kids, jobs, families, hobbies, goals, etc. But I communicate with dozens of friends on any given day.
My mom also demands regular grandchild content on a constant feed so I actually keep in touch with my family better than when I didn't have kids.
I have a standing neighborhood parent/kid meetup once a week where my kids get to play with their neighborhood friends while we parents hang out at some local restaurant. We text each other the day of to coordinate a place, and then maybe 3-5 of the families (out of a group of maybe 6-8 regulars and 2-4 fringe participants) will show up on any given week. This is on top of the occasional dinner party on the weekends. We don't make it to every event, but we are averaging more than one meetup per week with our friends with kids near our kids' ages.
I'm also friends with people at work. I have a standing monthly happy hour with work friends I've kept in touch with, even as people have taken different jobs or made other career changes.
I also do an annual camping trip in the summer with one group of friends, and an annual ski trip with another group of friends. It's only once a year for each, but there's also a lot of value in 48+ hour meetups, sitting around with downtime throughout, just catching up and talking around a fire or something.
My parents had church when they were my age. I don't. But I still try to schedule regular things on the calendar to stay plugged into different groups. It's important to me, and it didn't come naturally, but these are things my friends and I implemented in our 30's when socializing started requiring coordinating calendars. Especially once the friends' wedding weekends dropped off and seeing out of town friends required coordination without an actual occasion to celebrate.
That's awesome and it sounds like it works for you, but I suspect it isn't the norm. I could only find data for 50+ year olds, and among them only 24% talk to friends daily. That seems about right for my adult friends group - I get the sense that a quarter of them are very social and the rest are too busy to socialize that often.
I think it's fair to infer that a big chunk of the 76% are still talking to friends at least once a week, at least 1/7 as frequently as the 24%.
I don't mean to say that talking to friends at least once a week is the only way to be friends, or that it represents a majority of friendships (although maybe it might be). The part of the original comment that got me to weigh in was the idea that speaking once a week with friends was unusual or strange. That, I think, underappreciates how it can be feasible and maybe even desirable to keep in more regular contact with multiple friends.
There's the thing I think many of us have been missing. I expressed to my group of gamers that our multi-table Friday night one-shot group was our version of church before the pandemic broke out. We don't have a community and we don't trust the greater institutions, and it's driving us mad because we are fundamentally social creatures. We need that time together in a shared experience. It doesn't matter what you're doing together, but it's what we live for. Sports, church, board games, art, it doesn't matter in specific. What matters is the community.
EDIT: The OP seems to be citing data from at least 15 years ago. But that’s precisely the problem: the world seems to have changed in that time. We have 3 times the number of virgins across age groups in just a few years, for instance.
That is not how source work. Without citation you are just claiming that it is a different number. This is in no way better than what you are disputing.
In the scientific literature, I found confirmation of what I was hearing.
In recent years, about one-in-two adults in America reported experiencing
loneliness. And that was before the COVID-19 pandemic cut off so
many of us from friends, loved ones, and support systems, exacerbating
loneliness and isolation.
Loneliness is far more than just a bad feeling—it harms both individual
and societal health. It is associated with a greater risk of cardiovascular
disease, dementia, stroke, depression, anxiety, and premature death.
The mortality impact of being socially disconnected is similar to that
caused by smoking up to 15 cigarettes a day,4 and even greater than
that associated with obesity and physical inactivity. And the harmful
consequences of a society that lacks social connection can be felt in
our schools, workplaces, and civic organizations, where performance,
productivity, and engagement are diminished.
Dunking on incels who equate loneliness with a lack of sex and ascribing the “male loneliness epidemic” to being a meme made up by chronically online social media users is a mistake.
Everyone is experiencing loneliness.
Just because women suffer in silence while some men turn to antisocial behavior doesn’t mean that this is a problem that’s fabricated or only affecting men.
If you’re resistant to believing that this is a real problem because the people making noise about it on social media are primarily men then you’re ignoring reality.
Instead of "having been married" and "having had sex", maybe measure the amount actually spent in relationships and their quality.
If a large portion of men don't have the skills to be in a relationship despite having the skills to find one, then the data showed here in greentext means jack shit.
I almost was in the 3.3%... dodged it by only a few years.
Then I went without for a long while after though because I mistakenly thought any sex I'd have after that would probably be equally mediocre and it wasn't worth the effort. Realized that was stupid and I was missing out. Now I'm trying hard to get into a sexual relationship of some kind again with some minor success in the form of occasional one night stands. They're OK fun. I think my autism makes it hard to maintain the relationships though beyond one or two nights. My masking inevitably slips a little and I say or do something cringe or rude.
I'm bi I've been contemplating getting on Grindr to explore my homo side a bit more but from what I hear that's basically nothing but one night stands...
It’s okay to be different and that often comes with struggles. But it sounds like you’re trying to attack the problem with yourself and not just giving up and being angry about the world. That’s a good mindset to have.
Sex is fun, but it doesn’t cure loneliness. If you’re looking for a longer term solution then start looking to build lasting relationships, be open about having autism and you’ll find that the people you end up meeting will be going into things with you with a bit more understanding and empathy than if you just try, and fail, masking.
And, as always, a therapist is very useful when you’re trying to make a big change in your life. Having someone who is both educated in psychology and an unbiased observer can really help you see and understand things that you’d otherwise miss.
Only problem is every time I've been open about my autism with a person I was attracted to up front their interest starts to slowly fade. Its not immediate, but I suspect they start framing everything I say or do as part of my autism and I think they lose interest because of that. Though its impossible to know, and it might be coincidence or I'm seeing patterns where there are none. So I tend to keep it to myself with in person interactions more these days.
I think of it like this: Those people were never going to be compatible with you anyway and you spend a lot of time and effort masking and trying to hide who you are. It works for short interactions but not with anybody that you’re going to see often.
You’re better off acting in a way that makes you the most comfortable and true to yourself. The people who can’t handle that will filter themselves out. Rejection isn’t pleasant, but it’s brief. On the other hand masking constantly is exhausting even if it fools people for a bit.
You’ll be much more content in the long term if you just understand that it’s okay to just be who you are and let others decide if they like that or not. I guarantee that there are women (and men) who are compatible with you, but you won’t meet them by wasting your time with people who are not.
The fact they tried to write 15% off is what made me laugh the loudest. Not a "that's actually funny"-laugh, just pure mockery at OP's "well-meaning" take.
Takes 3.5% of the general population to start a revolution. Normies think 15% are ineffectual loners, or uniformly satisfied because their numbers are "so low". They think these men are both scary, and a non-credible threat, un-worthy of even acknowlegement.
Meanwhile, a large number of "non-virgins" who think the same way as the worst in-cels are running the US into the ground. Sure, ignoring them is the right call.
For example, people say it's hard to find a job in the Uk, while "only" 4% of people are unemployed here. That 4% is a looot of people. Now, sure, let's say that some men don't want to get married. But I doubt it's anywhere near 15%
Was at a nearly sold-out Ghost concert in Houston just last week. Had to wait in an enormous entrance line to get to the pool, the day before that. Grocery store is going to be slammed this weekend, because of all the Labor Day parties. Nearly got trampled in the park by a running club of what had to be a couple hundred people.
People still go out to events like concerts and holiday parties. Far fewer people casually go out to their local bars and coffee shops during the week. I'm pretty sure that's empirical.
Far fewer people casually go out to their local bars and coffee shops during the week
Maybe in aggregate. But I can't speak to that personally. My neighborhood bar is regularly slammed. There was a line around the block for some novelty tot bag at my local coffee shop.
Could just be a Houston phenomenon. But this insistence that nobody leaves the house anymore feels more like Internet dogma than fact.
the downtown area of my home town is totally dead. it used to have a cluster of bars that were always packed, and it's all just gone now.
im hearing things about other us cities that my friends are living in, that they've all died as our generation has gotten older and the younger generation isn't interested
Right... Yeah in aggregate. Just cause you see a counterfactual in person doesn't make it true. That's how it works...
And it's strange, you say you can't speak to that personally because you saw a line around the block, so what about the person who gave a personal anecdote to the opposite? You both have stories that contradict each other. How does this square in your framework?
"Male loneliness epidemic" = "all lives matter." Though counterintuitive, they both attempt to bring increased attention to men on an issue that is already universal. There is a loneliness epidemic conversation you could join.
I disagree, ALM is a whataboutism meant to distract from the BLM movement. There is no loneliness epidemic movement, so if some men want to get together and discuss how loneliness particularly affects them, good for them.
You don't like a particular demographic and then you invalidate their particular problems saying that everyone have them.
It's exactly the same argumentation. We all know that really all lives matter, the same we know that people is more lonely in general. But the same it is a specific problem with US cops killing black people disproportionately compared with white people there is a problem with men being more lonely in relation with women.
It doesn't mean that other genders are not lonely, same that "black lives matter" doesn't mean that people from other skin colors don't get killed. But there's a specifically problem related with gender and race respectively that needs to be addressed.
Anon conflates the desire for a more involved and expanded social life with just having sex, thereby perfectly explaining their lack of a more involved and expanded social life.
That’s definitely a decent chunk of what people in the media who talk about the ‘male loneliness epidemic’ are talking about, though. I don’t think I’ve read a single article about it that doesn’t devote time to how little sex young men allegedly aren’t having.
Maybe he just wants to hang out with the boys and fuck! Didn't think about that did ya?
Yea everyone knows as soon as you have sex once you never feel lonely again.
Indeed, which may actually be the source of their problems, or at least one of them.
In my experience (as in my classmates(, you couldn't be more right.
The irony is that there's a chance it might be true.
Sex doesn't necessarily mean very much. But, they've convinced themselves it's massively important. Being a virgin defines them, and it's proof that their life is a failure. If they can lose their virginity, they might be able to convince themselves that they're now in a new category. If they can get away from the various toxic influences, maybe they can become more likeable people, and be less lonely as a result.
I mean... I've had sex and I never feel lonely.
Could also be because I'm severely introverted and probably autistic though...
This entire post is precisely the problem. The fact that everyone here is conflating sex with mental health support is the reason why men's mental health isn't being taken seriously.
Men are not socialized to, and even actively discouraged from being emotionally vulnerable with each other.
We won't need men doing more fucking, we need men to sit down together and talk about their depression, and we need other men to be supportive and not downplay these conversations with sexist or homophobic slurs.
Exactly what I interpreted from this too. Posting a bunch of stats on sex and marriage as if they're a remedy for loneliness ignores the fact that people absolutely can feel lonely while having both.
Men do absolutely need to be better with each other but women do perpetuate this also.
The modern concept of masculinity is completely broken. Long ago it used to be about being a protector, now it's about anger, dominance, power, emotional dysregulation, resource hoarding (most of which provide little benefit to society at large).
A co-worker keept telling me he knows what's wrong with me and that I just need to fuck. I so wanted to strangle him, because I'd imagine that would make you less focused.
Another keeps insisting I grab (a married co-worker) by the pussy.
Does your job not have an HR department or something? I'm fairly easygoing but encouraging sexual assault is over the line.
Literally does not. The closest to HR is the owner's son.
those are co-workers though, everyone has stupid co-workers. It's like that whole "you can't choose your family" thing but corporatized.
The comments are taking the lead from the greentext that forms the basis for this post, and taking any greentext seriously is basically the original sin here.
I have a friend who hosts a men's support group through his Brazilian Jujitsu Dojo. And I think the fact that this club exists is great for everyone involved. But holy shit is it depressing to visit a club full of guys who are just harping on their depression.
Like, we all need a time and a place to unload. But we do also need a time and a place to have some fun. The best thing for my depression, getting out of college, was hanging with people my age and doing social activities together. BBQs, dance halls, board game nights, house parties, concerts and clubs - all great for relaxing and socializing.
Also nice when people can feel safe to joke and laugh with each other.
Yeah, totally! Getting my dick wet is precisely the kind of emotional and intellectual connection I'm missing! The penis is my data transfer cable.
That could almost be a CAKE lyric
It could give new meaning to the phrase, "you've got male!"
[USB Connection sound]
Remember to safely unmount
You mean pull out just after the handshake packets get sent?
Maybe Avatar was onto something….
Well, crap... don't have nearly enough hair for that...
TBF, they seem closely correlated. It seems unlikely (though not impossible) that you'll find the emotional intimacy we expect from romantic relationships but won't get any sex.
That's if one assumes that the loneliness is caused solely by a lack of romantic connection, yes.
Personally, I'm lacking in the friendship and acceptance department as well, and sex most certainly isn't a part of either of those.
Honestly the people that make me feel not lonely are not the ones I have sex with. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket; that’s how you end up in a codependent mess. Loneliness isn’t about romantic partners only, and friendships can be the most fulfilling things.
Strongly disagree. I've met far too many young men that see sex as a means to an often self serving end. Sex is a means of expressing love towards another person, it's not meant for self gratification. Seeing it that way is a recipe to have a lot of meaningless sex only to be left wondering why you feel so empty.
Theres a reason women generally don't climax from being jackhammered or even from clitoral stimualtion in many situations. They're coded for that emotional connection as a prerequisite for good sex. We are coded that way too but modern culture has painted that type of vulnerability as "unmanly".
In my view, a strong emotional connection creates the necessary conditions for good sex. But you don't need good sex to have a strong emotional connection.
Men can end their loneliness epidemic by getting their priorities straight.
I never said that you can't have sex without emotional intimacy. But the kind of emotional intimacy you get in a good romantic relationship is something that in our society your relatively unlikely to get outside of such a relationship, at least if you're a man. Not impossible, and it should be more common, but right now it's just not, especially for men.
This is such a toxic mentality. If you can't get emotional intimacy in a romantic relationship without sex then you have problems you need to work on.
How does having sex once same as not being lonely? Sure I am lonely and virgin. But, I could just as easily be not virgin and still lonely AF.
Yea, I would imagine a 30-40 yo virgin may end up getting a sex worker. having sex with a sex worker doesn't really reduce loneliness.
Some just gotta have sex before they can acknowlege that it might not be all their life is missing. Teenage hormones are so over-the-top, its a wonder so many of these men live long enough to voice their beliefs from the older age brackets.
She went to a different school you wouldn't know her
"Male loneliness epidemic" is about male friendships more than anything no?
That's definitely one sense, and the one that's actually an issue. But I've read enough headlines and yt subject lines to pick up on there also being some muddying of the waters with romantic female companionship. Or rather lack thereof as being a key part of the crisis.
Shit. I've had sex that made me feel even more alone than before.
(Had to figure out how to word that.)
With modern contraceptive technology we can have sex thats completely meaningless, where both parties are trying to achieve a deeper connection (to something, not even necessarily to each other) and misguidedly hope it can be achieved through a simple release. Its almost dystopian.
It doesn't have to be meaningless. It's perfectly meaningful to have innocent fun with somebody else.
Sure but I'd argue if both parties are going in openly with that intention that is a type of connection on its own.
"premarital sex" also known as sex
yeah but it was a one night stand so you know it made them feel extra less lonely
16.8? jesus.
I wanna see some breakdowns of these stats by country and socioeconomic factors
Yeah. Even if we assume that the average age was 1 or 2 years higher when I was that age, there's no way that the numbers in my highschool class where anywhere close to that. Out of like 16 guys, I know of only a couple who even had a girlfriend while in school, which is probably more likely than casual sex at that age.
The number seems about right to me. Puberty starts at 12-ish, so does sexual exploration.
It's not sex when your sexual exploration amounts to masturbating and ogling people, though. It's possible that my classmates who had sex just didn't tell me, but most of the ones I was actually friends with definitely didn't have sex in highschool.
we went to way different schools
It does sound pretty unlikely, but it's not impossible.
Usually it's the exact opposite
Plenty could have relationships outside school that they didn't talk much about.
I had my first sex at 16 and first relationships at 11, and my classmates weren't even remotely aware of how rich of a romantic/sexual life I already had, or that I had it at all.
I wasn't known as someone particularly likeable, either.
Imo sounds about right, people were getting mighty horny around that time and started having sex. Few years earlier even
I lost my v card at either 16 or 17, I forget which year exactly...
So yeah, 16.8 makes sense as an average.
Is it usually earlier in the US? Sounds a bit on the high side for where I live too.
The "while some is just incels" in your code comment part had me for a while, genuinely made me think of programming
There's a difference between having had sex and not being lonely... If these idiots would stop equating being lonely to not getting laid there wouldn't be so much resistance to the idea that there is a problem. Yeah, not being able to find someone to have sex with sucks but there's a whole lot of other shit missing that comes before that. If your only problem is not getting laid you're not lonely you're horny.
They must have never heard of hookers.
The problem is that the vast majority of the time whenever you logically breakdown the actual complaints being put forth by people supporting the idea of a "male loneliness epidemic" they usually boil down to "i deserve sex", or some other misogynistic ideology centered around blaming others for their misanthropy.
Once you start asking questions like who is responsible for male loneliness? What's the solution for male loneliness? Why are we specifying it as a gender specific epidemic? If there are so many men unified in loneliness, why not just befriend each other......?
Usually the answers themselves will just be accusations of misandry or just beligerence. And then if they actually engage with any kind of honesty or self reflection, you will usually get down to "I deserve female companionship".....but it's totally not about sex. But also there's a difference between female friends and having a girlfriend.... But it's totally not about sex.
It isn’t a male loneliness epidemic, it’s a loneliness epidemic. You’re never going to get satisfying answers to your questions if you accept the framing that it’s a male loneliness epidemic.
It’s a loneliness epidemic for everyone.
Focusing on the arguments of people who have no understanding of the topic and are just spreading toxicity is pointless; but pretending that there isn’t a loneliness epidemic because it’s used to power some incel memes is contributing to the apathy about this issue which is causing harm to both men and women.
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-general-social-connection-advisory.pdf
My criticism was precisely aimed at people specifically claiming it to be a male loneliness epidemic.....?
I never claimed there wasn't a loneliness epidemic, just that there isn't a male loneliness epidemic.
What are stats on suicide rate for men? Or depression? Wouldn't those be much better indicator than whether or not they had sex or marriage?
Depends if you are on 4chan of not
Lots of people have depression or suicidal thoughts while in relationships, too.
Yup. the sexual loneliness epidemic is easing up, because we're all fighting back to 'normal'. But ask most men this simple question: how many non-sexual friends do you have in your life that you communicate with more than once a week?
i think a simple "what do you feel right now" would stump half the population.
If they dont answer with the predifined "fine"
The predifined “fine” is either a real “i don’t know “ or “it’s too socially dangerous for me to say what I really feel “ imho
Or even “I think it would be nice to talk to you in more detail, but it’s really difficult to summarize my entire mental state in a short sentence, so to avoid you and I the headache, I’m just gonna say fine.”
IDK about 'loneliness epidemic', but 'lonely' IS my normal.
I do communicate with some friends more than once a week, but none of them even live in the same city as I do.
That's the hell of it, but if you feel lonely at a base level, I suggest you try to find or start community events. You'd be amazed how effective Meetup is.
I have health issues that get in the way of in-person-socializing.
I don't really have a way to deal with that. I have my own issues, but I do fight past them to try being social whenever I can. The biggest thing I can say is to find groups who do voice & video chats more often.
Depends where you are, seems to be a pretty US-based thing. Here it is all weird stuff.
Fair enough, but I'm sure there's an alternative.
Is it normal to talk to friends more than once a week? That seems like a strange standard imo. Even my besties and I touch base maybe once or twice a month at most, and see eachother once every 4 to 6 months.
That sounds normal to me, but it’s worth noting that when we were under Covid lockdown, I didn’t understand how so many people freaked out about it. I’ve always been sucky at social interactions and pretty much always felt lonely as a baseline. It’s like I’d been training for lockdown my entire life. Seeing others lose their minds trying to live the way I’ve always lived was quite awkward.
Which means for many people, your/my standards for social contact are way too infrequent. I don’t know what an average measurement would be, but it’s clear that our “normal” can’t be most people’s “normal.”
Yes. It's very normal to talk to several friends per day, and to see several friends each week. Rotating through one's universe of friends, that might mean that there are a few friends you talk to at least a few times per week, some that you talk to a few times per month, and a some that you talk to a few times per year. And maybe you actually meet up in person a few times so that you're still seeing friends in person every week.
That level frequency isn't necessary, but it's kinda shocking to me that your comment suggests that you find it surprising that many other people are doing this.
I think that level of interaction might be normal in adolescence and even young adulthood, but by the time you're working, living on your own, and maybe have a family I really don't think most people talk to their friends that often.
I'm in my 40's, and I have children. My wife and I both work full time jobs that require regular travel and responsibilities outside of normal business hours.
I have probably 5-10 chat threads in different apps that I maintain with different friend groups. Some are just stupid meme exchanges, but they're also a regular way to keep in touch with people about their kids, jobs, families, hobbies, goals, etc. But I communicate with dozens of friends on any given day.
My mom also demands regular grandchild content on a constant feed so I actually keep in touch with my family better than when I didn't have kids.
I have a standing neighborhood parent/kid meetup once a week where my kids get to play with their neighborhood friends while we parents hang out at some local restaurant. We text each other the day of to coordinate a place, and then maybe 3-5 of the families (out of a group of maybe 6-8 regulars and 2-4 fringe participants) will show up on any given week. This is on top of the occasional dinner party on the weekends. We don't make it to every event, but we are averaging more than one meetup per week with our friends with kids near our kids' ages.
I'm also friends with people at work. I have a standing monthly happy hour with work friends I've kept in touch with, even as people have taken different jobs or made other career changes.
I also do an annual camping trip in the summer with one group of friends, and an annual ski trip with another group of friends. It's only once a year for each, but there's also a lot of value in 48+ hour meetups, sitting around with downtime throughout, just catching up and talking around a fire or something.
My parents had church when they were my age. I don't. But I still try to schedule regular things on the calendar to stay plugged into different groups. It's important to me, and it didn't come naturally, but these are things my friends and I implemented in our 30's when socializing started requiring coordinating calendars. Especially once the friends' wedding weekends dropped off and seeing out of town friends required coordination without an actual occasion to celebrate.
That's awesome and it sounds like it works for you, but I suspect it isn't the norm. I could only find data for 50+ year olds, and among them only 24% talk to friends daily. That seems about right for my adult friends group - I get the sense that a quarter of them are very social and the rest are too busy to socialize that often.
I think it's fair to infer that a big chunk of the 76% are still talking to friends at least once a week, at least 1/7 as frequently as the 24%.
I don't mean to say that talking to friends at least once a week is the only way to be friends, or that it represents a majority of friendships (although maybe it might be). The part of the original comment that got me to weigh in was the idea that speaking once a week with friends was unusual or strange. That, I think, underappreciates how it can be feasible and maybe even desirable to keep in more regular contact with multiple friends.
The rest of the breakdown is: 40% once a week, 36% once a month or less. I guess I fall into the latter bracket.
There's the thing I think many of us have been missing. I expressed to my group of gamers that our multi-table Friday night one-shot group was our version of church before the pandemic broke out. We don't have a community and we don't trust the greater institutions, and it's driving us mad because we are fundamentally social creatures. We need that time together in a shared experience. It doesn't matter what you're doing together, but it's what we live for. Sports, church, board games, art, it doesn't matter in specific. What matters is the community.
Those stats cannot be right.
They’re not.
A quick google search:
EDIT: The OP seems to be citing data from at least 15 years ago. But that’s precisely the problem: the world seems to have changed in that time. We have 3 times the number of virgins across age groups in just a few years, for instance.
That is not how source work. Without citation you are just claiming that it is a different number. This is in no way better than what you are disputing.
It's from this site which seems to aggregate different sources.
I dont know what it's worth.
edit: typo
It made me feel better so it's real now.
That's hell of a range here. You can be 19 when you've been asked the question and lose your virginity next year.
He could not be in america.
Just to be clear, there is a loneliness epidemic: https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-general-social-connection-advisory.pdf
Dunking on incels who equate loneliness with a lack of sex and ascribing the “male loneliness epidemic” to being a meme made up by chronically online social media users is a mistake.
Everyone is experiencing loneliness.
Just because women suffer in silence while some men turn to antisocial behavior doesn’t mean that this is a problem that’s fabricated or only affecting men.
If you’re resistant to believing that this is a real problem because the people making noise about it on social media are primarily men then you’re ignoring reality.
Is that an Andrew Tate wojak?
That's it. I knew it looked vaguely familiar and couldn't figure out why
They also want to capture the "lonely man" demographic and make them feel like it's not their fault, engage them and get their clicks/dollars.
Instead of "having been married" and "having had sex", maybe measure the amount actually spent in relationships and their quality.
If a large portion of men don't have the skills to be in a relationship despite having the skills to find one, then the data showed here in greentext means jack shit.
"3.3% of men are virgin by age 30"
Cool! I am special
look ma'! I'm special!
look ma'! I'm special!
I almost was in the 3.3%... dodged it by only a few years.
Then I went without for a long while after though because I mistakenly thought any sex I'd have after that would probably be equally mediocre and it wasn't worth the effort. Realized that was stupid and I was missing out. Now I'm trying hard to get into a sexual relationship of some kind again with some minor success in the form of occasional one night stands. They're OK fun. I think my autism makes it hard to maintain the relationships though beyond one or two nights. My masking inevitably slips a little and I say or do something cringe or rude.
I'm bi I've been contemplating getting on Grindr to explore my homo side a bit more but from what I hear that's basically nothing but one night stands...
Go to FEELD bro :3
It’s okay to be different and that often comes with struggles. But it sounds like you’re trying to attack the problem with yourself and not just giving up and being angry about the world. That’s a good mindset to have.
Sex is fun, but it doesn’t cure loneliness. If you’re looking for a longer term solution then start looking to build lasting relationships, be open about having autism and you’ll find that the people you end up meeting will be going into things with you with a bit more understanding and empathy than if you just try, and fail, masking.
And, as always, a therapist is very useful when you’re trying to make a big change in your life. Having someone who is both educated in psychology and an unbiased observer can really help you see and understand things that you’d otherwise miss.
Only problem is every time I've been open about my autism with a person I was attracted to up front their interest starts to slowly fade. Its not immediate, but I suspect they start framing everything I say or do as part of my autism and I think they lose interest because of that. Though its impossible to know, and it might be coincidence or I'm seeing patterns where there are none. So I tend to keep it to myself with in person interactions more these days.
I think of it like this: Those people were never going to be compatible with you anyway and you spend a lot of time and effort masking and trying to hide who you are. It works for short interactions but not with anybody that you’re going to see often.
You’re better off acting in a way that makes you the most comfortable and true to yourself. The people who can’t handle that will filter themselves out. Rejection isn’t pleasant, but it’s brief. On the other hand masking constantly is exhausting even if it fools people for a bit.
You’ll be much more content in the long term if you just understand that it’s okay to just be who you are and let others decide if they like that or not. I guarantee that there are women (and men) who are compatible with you, but you won’t meet them by wasting your time with people who are not.
TIL I'm like in the 10%
Shit, 4 more years and I will be in 10%.
15% is still quite bad tbh
The fact they tried to write 15% off is what made me laugh the loudest. Not a "that's actually funny"-laugh, just pure mockery at OP's "well-meaning" take.
Takes 3.5% of the general population to start a revolution. Normies think 15% are ineffectual loners, or uniformly satisfied because their numbers are "so low". They think these men are both scary, and a non-credible threat, un-worthy of even acknowlegement.
Meanwhile, a large number of "non-virgins" who think the same way as the worst in-cels are running the US into the ground. Sure, ignoring them is the right call.
For example, people say it's hard to find a job in the Uk, while "only" 4% of people are unemployed here. That 4% is a looot of people. Now, sure, let's say that some men don't want to get married. But I doubt it's anywhere near 15%
Its "only 4%" until its time to look at the benefits budget then suddenly its a "whopping 4%"
people don't go out anymore ok
Was at a nearly sold-out Ghost concert in Houston just last week. Had to wait in an enormous entrance line to get to the pool, the day before that. Grocery store is going to be slammed this weekend, because of all the Labor Day parties. Nearly got trampled in the park by a running club of what had to be a couple hundred people.
Damn shame nobody goes out anymore.
People still go out to events like concerts and holiday parties. Far fewer people casually go out to their local bars and coffee shops during the week. I'm pretty sure that's empirical.
Maybe in aggregate. But I can't speak to that personally. My neighborhood bar is regularly slammed. There was a line around the block for some novelty tot bag at my local coffee shop.
Could just be a Houston phenomenon. But this insistence that nobody leaves the house anymore feels more like Internet dogma than fact.
the downtown area of my home town is totally dead. it used to have a cluster of bars that were always packed, and it's all just gone now.
im hearing things about other us cities that my friends are living in, that they've all died as our generation has gotten older and the younger generation isn't interested
Right... Yeah in aggregate. Just cause you see a counterfactual in person doesn't make it true. That's how it works...
And it's strange, you say you can't speak to that personally because you saw a line around the block, so what about the person who gave a personal anecdote to the opposite? You both have stories that contradict each other. How does this square in your framework?
what city are you in? im interested for honestly reasons
edit oh its huston thank you friend
👍
This is terrible news....
Imma make that 15.1%
"Male loneliness epidemic" = "all lives matter." Though counterintuitive, they both attempt to bring increased attention to men on an issue that is already universal. There is a loneliness epidemic conversation you could join.
I disagree, ALM is a whataboutism meant to distract from the BLM movement. There is no loneliness epidemic movement, so if some men want to get together and discuss how loneliness particularly affects them, good for them.
Sorry you've felt left out of the conversation. If you spend time in male-only spaces you'll find they aren't talking about it.
It's more like:
"All loneliness epidemic" == "All lives matter".
You don't like a particular demographic and then you invalidate their particular problems saying that everyone have them.
It's exactly the same argumentation. We all know that really all lives matter, the same we know that people is more lonely in general. But the same it is a specific problem with US cops killing black people disproportionately compared with white people there is a problem with men being more lonely in relation with women.
It doesn't mean that other genders are not lonely, same that "black lives matter" doesn't mean that people from other skin colors don't get killed. But there's a specifically problem related with gender and race respectively that needs to be addressed.
But those 3.3 percent are really upset about it.