Gosh I’m so ashamed I did this the other day..I’m old but conditioning is powerful. I made the egregious error of wearing short sleeves on a 100 degree day. Older man approached me and initiated a conversation about my ink. Then asked me about “where the rest of them were” with the whole up and down look. Then told me about his ass tattoo. This was in the freezer section at fucking Walmart. And I was with my daughter. And I’m old. Just let me look at my French fries in peace.
Holy fuck. This is psycho behavior and fuck the goddamn police for refusing to do their fucking jobs. As far as I'm concerned that makes them complicit with whatever this psycho decides to do. This is the exact thing restraining orders are for! I'm so sorry you're dealing with this and please stay safe any way you can. 🤍
Politeness is a defence mechanism. It’s a way of creating social boundaries and when two people are polite to each other there’s a mutual respect for one another’s boundaries.
Never feel guilty about being polite and then making a quick exit when someone is trying to transgress your boundaries. The alternative, confrontation, does not offer you much to gain but risks an embarrassing blow-up or even worse.
Remember: it’s never your responsibility to socialize other people (unless they’re literally your own young children).
I worry with the "trust your gut" thing. When you're wary be wary, but preexisting prejudices can and do influence this and do need to be examined and challenged. Noping out of a situation is always ok, and if force to do so is needed to have your demands to step away respected that's what it takes, but a gut feeling is not evidence of danger, but a suspicion of it and that distinction is crucial.
Trusting your gut as evidence of danger sometimes ends in tragedy as this incident shows. This woman was visiting El Paso, saw road signs for Mexico (El Paso and Ciudad Juarez share a metropolitan area), thought she was being kidnapped, and killed her driver.
We currently live in an era of high fear and social distrust alongside low crime rates.
Quick question: How many times do tragedies like the one you linked occur? How many times do tragedies occur because women were not paying attention to that inner voice saying "this guy is a creep"?
I have no idea and I'm not saying to ignore that voice, I'm urging people to remember that when dealing with "this guy's a creep" feelings thats a gut feeling, not evidence that he's done anything actually wrong. I still remove myself from those situations too. I give strange men berth on the sidewalk and if they're speaking to themselves I adjust my route to avoid them. I rarely respond to strange men who speak to me even. But I keep in mind that my fear of someone doesn't indicate wrongdoing on their part.
The fear of women in privileged classes is used as justification for violence against members of marginalized groups. Here's a JSTOR link to a 2002 paper on it in racial contexts. Straight and cis women's fear is used to discriminate against gay and trans women.
Calls for people to remember proportionality in fear responses are intersectionally valuable. So, if you are scared, remove yourself from the situation with escalating force if needed, but I will again reiterate the need to remember that our gut feelings are not evidence that someone did anything wrong or had any intent to. If they try to stop you from leaving, that is something wrong that they're doing, if they follow you as you flee, thats something wrong they're doing.
But that's pretty much not an issue in most of the world. Most people don't open up with gunfire. That's a problem in a very, very, very small number of nations on the planet.
Yep there's a world of difference between "I'm gonna exit" and shooting someone in the head. Plus we only have her word that's what happened, he can't tell us
I see it differently. Our brain takes in a lot of information that our mind doesn't consciously register and it tells us through gut instinct. If it's a strong gut instinct rather than a niggly concern or anxiety then go with it.
"What about men???"
"STOP OPPRESSING MEEEEE"
"Men are the real victims"
<Piles on because it's feminist/acknowledging male violence/about a women's issue etc>
If we played a drinking game we'd be drunk in minutes
was browsing Lemmy for a while before I signed up to get an idea of the ins and outs and the culture so to speak. the amount of this on articles to do with women was just staggering and maddening! like if a woman said she felt uncomfortable because a man was following her everywhere and harassing her, these people would deffo respond with something like "what about men feeling uncomfortable?"
Not in my experience. The amount of 'wow, I was just...' responses I've had from men when I am out and femme (I'm AMAB non-binary) truly stunned me. I was dropping off stuff at a thrift store, and as I walked through the door an older man held it open for me, then grabbed my lower back to 'guide' me forward. I spun around into a boxing guard, and the guy looked horrified at me (as did most people in the store) and then he said something that made it all make sense to me, in a truly awful way.
Ugh I haaaaate when men touch me to 'guide' me. Like obviously they wouldn't do that to a dude (which the older guy in your story pretty much admitted) so what makes them think it's OK to do to us?
Or. When they hold a door and expect you to scoot under their outstretched arm. Wtf is that all about, I'm not a child!
I'm better now, this was almost a year ago now, but it was early into me being 'out' as femme, but thank you for asking :)
Honestly, it's not nearly as bad as the guys who fucking follow you to 'get a better look'. I was waiting to cross a street, cars at my left, and as I started crossing suddenly a face appeared about six inches from my face and craned his neck in front of me to look at my face, had a sudden shocked look - and realised I was AMAB and then speed-walked to my right down the street.
I got home and sobbed for about 30 minutes because I realised that girls deal with this shit all the time. Little girls! I've had guys follow me out of stores, hold doors open to look at my ass, then follow me and take pictures with their fucking phones. Seriously how the fuck do you guys deal with this all the time? I fought my way through elementary and high school as a (EDIT: 5th percentile for weight, IE. I was under 100 pounds in grade 8, my bad!) boy, but it was nothing compared to this.
Yep, and that's the awful thing about it. You get so many men creeping after you when you're a fucking child, and you just get used to it. Luckily for me it's died off a lot as I got older but the sad thing is we just accept it as part of our life.
One of my younger cousins is also enby (AMAB) and has always looked very feminine, and they came to me in tears because they kept getting sexually assaulted working at a Department store. Guys would grab their ass, one guy 'lightly' slapped their ass, touch their shoulder, one guy even kissed them because they 'looked like they wanted it.' After dry heaving for a minute, I just cried with them for the next hour.
I'm so sorry you all have had to, and continue to deal with this. Especially with fascism taking hold, I'm so worried for all of you. I walk my children's friends to the bus stop, and I hate that for the first time I feel like I really have to. We all need to form protective groups now and I hate it.
I also coincidentally have run into creeps about one hundred times as often when I'm mistaken for a woman, so I would argue no, it's not true for 'any gender.'
It sounds like this is a lot more applicable for women. But that does not invalidate mens rights. Even if they don't need to excersize them nearly as much
You came onto a sub-lemmy about women in a post about women and burst out with:
But that does not invalidate mens rights.
Who the fuck said it does? Look, I lived as a man for longer than you've been alive, and this is the perfect example of male privilege. You think you have not just the option to but obligation to insert male issues into a squarely labelled area set up for women.
As a man I was mugged twice in over 40 years, and got into a few dozen fights in elementary and highschool -- each and every time to a boy/man. Then I came out as enby and was immediately inundated with fun experiences like:
Being followed home
Being physically touched and then apologized to because "whoops you're a guy" (because it would have been fine if I weren't?)
Being cat called
Being told I could be raped because how I was dressed was 'asking for it' (I had a tank top and shorts on, not that it matters)
Told by a man that 'well, men do that' (about most of the above experiences)
If you want to bring up issues men have, there are dozens of places for that. A place set up for women to talk about women's issues is not only not the place, it makes all of us AMAB's look fucking worse. Part of the reason I came out as non-binary and not just a femme-y man is because people like you make me feel so alienated from men I can't imagine being one.
I've heard of people in America not even daring to use a shared gender bathroom because of mens behaviour where they lived. I know some places suck. Yes, this is just one example, there is more. Way too much more
This is the first time someone put words in my mouth in a discussion on equality. As to your question: that was you
I’ve heard of people in America not even daring to use a shared gender bathroom because of mens behaviour where they lived. I know some places suck.
Je suis Canadienne.
This is the first time someone put words in my mouth in a discussion on equality.
_You're in a women's forum talking about women's issues and your first comment was an attempt to invalidate the entire discussion by saying:
Isn’t that true for any gender?
No.Women talking about issues women face isn't true of any gender - similarities can exist yet are separate because they are different groups that have different experiences and realities.
You walked in here and tried to derail commiseration into a vague debate that holds no water.
Why? You don't know their life, why do you get to decide how they should act and to whom?
You are ofc welcome to choose that approach for yourself, as mostly do I. But telling anyone what to do, especially on the flimsy base of gender, seems callous.
I don't know and don't care about their life, and it is not gender specific. All humans that are part of a society should be polite by default. What I am saying is that I don't see the reason that women should be exempt.
Had a client sexually harass me on a recorded work call (he knew it was recorded because I told him when the call started), and I reported it to my boss. My boss sent the recording to the client's boss and the guy was fired the next day. I terminated his access to everything and it felt so good. I'd never been spoken to in such a disgusting way before that. Gave me the ICK
48 replies
Gosh I’m so ashamed I did this the other day..I’m old but conditioning is powerful. I made the egregious error of wearing short sleeves on a 100 degree day. Older man approached me and initiated a conversation about my ink. Then asked me about “where the rest of them were” with the whole up and down look. Then told me about his ass tattoo. This was in the freezer section at fucking Walmart. And I was with my daughter. And I’m old. Just let me look at my French fries in peace.
This makes me angry at that man and I'm sorry you have to deal with shit like this.
Thanks for the sentiment. It’s not too common thankfully.
Holy shit, that's terrifying. I'm sorry you have to go to such lengths as moving away to feel safe! :(
Holy fuck. This is psycho behavior and fuck the goddamn police for refusing to do their fucking jobs. As far as I'm concerned that makes them complicit with whatever this psycho decides to do. This is the exact thing restraining orders are for! I'm so sorry you're dealing with this and please stay safe any way you can. 🤍
Politeness is a defence mechanism. It’s a way of creating social boundaries and when two people are polite to each other there’s a mutual respect for one another’s boundaries.
Never feel guilty about being polite and then making a quick exit when someone is trying to transgress your boundaries. The alternative, confrontation, does not offer you much to gain but risks an embarrassing blow-up or even worse.
Remember: it’s never your responsibility to socialize other people (unless they’re literally your own young children).
I worry with the "trust your gut" thing. When you're wary be wary, but preexisting prejudices can and do influence this and do need to be examined and challenged. Noping out of a situation is always ok, and if force to do so is needed to have your demands to step away respected that's what it takes, but a gut feeling is not evidence of danger, but a suspicion of it and that distinction is crucial.
Trusting your gut as evidence of danger sometimes ends in tragedy as this incident shows. This woman was visiting El Paso, saw road signs for Mexico (El Paso and Ciudad Juarez share a metropolitan area), thought she was being kidnapped, and killed her driver.
We currently live in an era of high fear and social distrust alongside low crime rates.
Quick question: How many times do tragedies like the one you linked occur? How many times do tragedies occur because women were not paying attention to that inner voice saying "this guy is a creep"?
I have no idea and I'm not saying to ignore that voice, I'm urging people to remember that when dealing with "this guy's a creep" feelings thats a gut feeling, not evidence that he's done anything actually wrong. I still remove myself from those situations too. I give strange men berth on the sidewalk and if they're speaking to themselves I adjust my route to avoid them. I rarely respond to strange men who speak to me even. But I keep in mind that my fear of someone doesn't indicate wrongdoing on their part.
The fear of women in privileged classes is used as justification for violence against members of marginalized groups. Here's a JSTOR link to a 2002 paper on it in racial contexts. Straight and cis women's fear is used to discriminate against gay and trans women.
Calls for people to remember proportionality in fear responses are intersectionally valuable. So, if you are scared, remove yourself from the situation with escalating force if needed, but I will again reiterate the need to remember that our gut feelings are not evidence that someone did anything wrong or had any intent to. If they try to stop you from leaving, that is something wrong that they're doing, if they follow you as you flee, thats something wrong they're doing.
Well, yes. Don't start with gunfire.
But that's pretty much not an issue in most of the world. Most people don't open up with gunfire. That's a problem in a very, very, very small number of nations on the planet.
Yep there's a world of difference between "I'm gonna exit" and shooting someone in the head. Plus we only have her word that's what happened, he can't tell us
I see it differently. Our brain takes in a lot of information that our mind doesn't consciously register and it tells us through gut instinct. If it's a strong gut instinct rather than a niggly concern or anxiety then go with it.
And as expected men pipe up with their all-important view in a community where they're explicitly not welcome.
Fucking HELL is Lemmy toxic!
Two more came in to comment on the comment that pointed out men commenting aren't allowed.
Are they really that stupid? Or are they just that fucking arrogant?
You can play manosphere bingo with it.
"What about men???" "STOP OPPRESSING MEEEEE" "Men are the real victims" <Piles on because it's feminist/acknowledging male violence/about a women's issue etc>
If we played a drinking game we'd be drunk in minutes
was browsing Lemmy for a while before I signed up to get an idea of the ins and outs and the culture so to speak. the amount of this on articles to do with women was just staggering and maddening! like if a woman said she felt uncomfortable because a man was following her everywhere and harassing her, these people would deffo respond with something like "what about men feeling uncomfortable?"
Yep! It's immediately "but what about men" or "Not All Men!" It's exhausting
A few minutes' reading here some days and I'd welcome being piss drunk in five minutes. Just to make the pain go away.
I have some lovely hooch for that as well. Made from sweet potato and liquified flame. At 53%ABV (106 proof).
Momma's takin' a shot when she gets home for dinner!
Do it! I'm going to give my finger a well earned rest as it's knackered from repeatedly hitting the ban button
I too would like a ban from the toxic hate here. But I'm gonna block you anyway. Have fun in your echo chamber.
Isn't that true for any gender?
Not in my experience. The amount of 'wow, I was just...' responses I've had from men when I am out and femme (I'm AMAB non-binary) truly stunned me. I was dropping off stuff at a thrift store, and as I walked through the door an older man held it open for me, then grabbed my lower back to 'guide' me forward. I spun around into a boxing guard, and the guy looked horrified at me (as did most people in the store) and then he said something that made it all make sense to me, in a truly awful way.
"Oh I'm sorry lad, I thought you were a girl!"
Ugh I haaaaate when men touch me to 'guide' me. Like obviously they wouldn't do that to a dude (which the older guy in your story pretty much admitted) so what makes them think it's OK to do to us?
Or. When they hold a door and expect you to scoot under their outstretched arm. Wtf is that all about, I'm not a child!
Oh fucking hell what an absolute dickhead!! It's really shitty mate how are you feeling?
I'm better now, this was almost a year ago now, but it was early into me being 'out' as femme, but thank you for asking :)
Honestly, it's not nearly as bad as the guys who fucking follow you to 'get a better look'. I was waiting to cross a street, cars at my left, and as I started crossing suddenly a face appeared about six inches from my face and craned his neck in front of me to look at my face, had a sudden shocked look - and realised I was AMAB and then speed-walked to my right down the street.
I got home and sobbed for about 30 minutes because I realised that girls deal with this shit all the time. Little girls! I've had guys follow me out of stores, hold doors open to look at my ass, then follow me and take pictures with their fucking phones. Seriously how the fuck do you guys deal with this all the time? I fought my way through elementary and high school as a (EDIT: 5th percentile for weight, IE. I was under 100 pounds in grade 8, my bad!) boy, but it was nothing compared to this.
Yep, and that's the awful thing about it. You get so many men creeping after you when you're a fucking child, and you just get used to it. Luckily for me it's died off a lot as I got older but the sad thing is we just accept it as part of our life.
One of my younger cousins is also enby (AMAB) and has always looked very feminine, and they came to me in tears because they kept getting sexually assaulted working at a Department store. Guys would grab their ass, one guy 'lightly' slapped their ass, touch their shoulder, one guy even kissed them because they 'looked like they wanted it.' After dry heaving for a minute, I just cried with them for the next hour.
I'm so sorry you all have had to, and continue to deal with this. Especially with fascism taking hold, I'm so worried for all of you. I walk my children's friends to the bus stop, and I hate that for the first time I feel like I really have to. We all need to form protective groups now and I hate it.
I'm so sorry, everyone, it's not fair or just.
The invisibility that comes with aging has its appeal!
Hey, if you make me uncomfortable, I'll be impolite too. And I'll probably apologise for it
yikes, you ran into a creep
I also coincidentally have run into creeps about one hundred times as often when I'm mistaken for a woman, so I would argue no, it's not true for 'any gender.'
It sounds like this is a lot more applicable for women. But that does not invalidate mens rights. Even if they don't need to excersize them nearly as much
You came onto a sub-lemmy about women in a post about women and burst out with:
Who the fuck said it does? Look, I lived as a man for longer than you've been alive, and this is the perfect example of male privilege. You think you have not just the option to but obligation to insert male issues into a squarely labelled area set up for women.
As a man I was mugged twice in over 40 years, and got into a few dozen fights in elementary and highschool -- each and every time to a boy/man. Then I came out as enby and was immediately inundated with fun experiences like:
If you want to bring up issues men have, there are dozens of places for that. A place set up for women to talk about women's issues is not only not the place, it makes all of us AMAB's look fucking worse. Part of the reason I came out as non-binary and not just a femme-y man is because people like you make me feel so alienated from men I can't imagine being one.
You know what has never happened to me here in China?
So it seems that "men do that" is a bit more specific. Perhaps "western men do that" or "American men do that" is more on point.
I've heard of people in America not even daring to use a shared gender bathroom because of mens behaviour where they lived. I know some places suck. Yes, this is just one example, there is more. Way too much more
This is the first time someone put words in my mouth in a discussion on equality. As to your question: that was you
Je suis Canadienne.
_You're in a women's forum talking about women's issues and your first comment was an attempt to invalidate the entire discussion by saying:
No. Women talking about issues women face isn't true of any gender - similarities can exist yet are separate because they are different groups that have different experiences and realities.
You walked in here and tried to derail commiseration into a vague debate that holds no water.
Fuck off with the MRA/MGTOW/incel talking points. Like just totally fuck the fucking fuck off with them.
Oh, sexism. I was expecting better from you
Yes, but this community is a women's space, so posts are focused as such.
Don't all lives matter? /s
I don't think racist apologetics are a good idea here
Honestly, women don't owe anyone to be polite at all, let them do as they want.
Of course they fucking do. Everyone should be polite by default. If someone misbehaves, they lose the right to receive politeness.
Why? You don't know their life, why do you get to decide how they should act and to whom?
You are ofc welcome to choose that approach for yourself, as mostly do I. But telling anyone what to do, especially on the flimsy base of gender, seems callous.
I don't know and don't care about their life, and it is not gender specific. All humans that are part of a society should be polite by default. What I am saying is that I don't see the reason that women should be exempt.
Had a client sexually harass me on a recorded work call (he knew it was recorded because I told him when the call started), and I reported it to my boss. My boss sent the recording to the client's boss and the guy was fired the next day. I terminated his access to everything and it felt so good. I'd never been spoken to in such a disgusting way before that. Gave me the ICK
Yes!