Zionismus- und Nazianschuldigungen | Zionism and nazism accusations
English version below.
Hallo zusammen,
in den letzten Tagen gab es einige Anschuldigungen sowohl gegen die Moderatoren von [email protected] als auch gegen unser Adminteam Nazis oder Zionisten zu sein, vorrangig aufgrund des Umgangs mit Kritik an Israel.
Wir weisen diese Anschuldigungen hiermit ausdrücklich zurück und werden derartige Anschuldigungen nicht tolerieren. Insbesondere sind Personen die Andere derart beschuldigen, ohne dass es dafür konkrete objektive Anlässe gibt, auf feddit.org nicht willkommen. Dies ist bereits von unserer Regel zu respektvollem Umgang gedeckt, welcher hier in keinster Weise erbracht wird.
Zunächst einmal möchten wir daran erinnern, dass die Nutzung von feddit.org mit den Rechten und Gesetzen der DACH-Region vereinbar sein muss. Dies ist explizit in unseren Instanzregeln erwähnt, und beinhaltet Deutschland (D), Österreich (A), und Schweiz (CH). Die Infrastruktur von feddit.org wird von der Fediverse Foundation, einem gemeinnützigen Verein in Österreich betreut. Unser Adminteam, welches sich um die Instanzweite Moderation, Organisation, sowie Mitbetreuung der Infrastruktur von feddit.org kümmert ist in Deutschland ansässig. Da wir allgemein den deutschsprachigen Raum als primäre Zielgruppe haben versuchen wir auch entsprechend die Gesetze der Schweiz zu berücksichtigen.
Auch wenn wir nicht aktiv nach Gesetzesverstößen suchen müssen, ist es zumindest in einigen Fällen nötig nach Kenntnisnahme einzugreifen. Dies beinhaltet z.B. wenn Moderatoren oder Admins Meldungen zu Posts oder Kommentaren erhalten, aber auch wenn derartige Inhalte zufällig entdeckt werden, wenn man auf Lemmy unterwegs ist.
https://www.wko.at/internetrecht/providerhaftung
Beim „Hosting“ haftet der Diensteanbieter beschränkt, sofern der Anbieter
- keine tatsächliche Kenntnis von konkreten rechtswidrigen Tätigkeiten oder Inhalten hat und sich in Bezug auf Schadenersatzansprüche auch keiner Tatsachen oder Umstände bewusst ist, aus denen die rechtswidrige Tätigkeit oder Inhalte offensichtlich hervorgehen, und
- sobald er diese Kenntnis oder dieses Bewusstsein erlangt, zügig tätig wird, um den Zugang zu den rechtswidrigen Inhalten zu sperren oder diese zu entfernen.
Relevante Straftatbestände sind unter anderem Folgende:
Rechtliche Instrumente gegen die Verbreitung von antisemitischen oder terroristische Handlungen gutheißenden Äußerungen, des Deutschen Bundestages (Deutschland)
::: spoiler Auszug
- Aus 2.1.1 Strafbares Billigen von Straftaten
"Nach § 140 Nr. 2 StGB macht sich strafbar, wer bestimmte, in den §§ 140, 138 und 126 StGB aufgelistete Arten von rechtswidrigen Taten in einer Weise, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, öffentlich billigt. Als solche Bezugstaten kommen unter anderem in Betracht Mord(§ 211 StGB), Totschlag (§ 212 StGB), Völkermord (§ 6 VStGB), Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit (§ 7 VStGB), Kriegsverbrechen (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 oder 12 VStGB) und Aggression (§ 13 VStGB), aber auch verschiedene gegen die sexuelle Selbstbestimmung oder die persönliche Freiheit gerichtete Straftaten..."
- Aus 2.1.2 Volksverhetzung
"Gemäß § 130 Absatz 1 StGB macht sich strafbar, wer in einer Weise, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, 1. gegen eine nationale, rassische, religiöse oder durch ihre ethnische Herkunft bestimmte Gruppe, gegen Teile der Bevölkerung oder gegen einen Einzelnen wegen dessen Zugehörigkeit zu einer vorbezeichneten Gruppe oder zu einem Teil der Bevölkerung zum Hass aufstachelt, zu Gewalt- oder Willkürmaßnahmen auffordert oder 2. die Menschenwürde anderer dadurch angreift, dass er eine vorbezeichnete Gruppe, Teile der Bevölkerung oder einen Einzelnen wegen dessen Zugehörigkeit zu einer vorbezeichneten Gruppe oder zu einem Teil der Bevölkerung beschimpft, böswillig verächtlich macht oder verleumdet"(...)"1. einen Inhalt (§ 11 Absatz 3) verbreitet oder der Öffentlichkeit zugänglich macht oder einer Person unter achtzehn Jahren einen Inhalt (§ 11 Absatz 3) anbietet, überlässt oder zugänglich macht, der a) zum Hass gegen eine in Absatz 1 Nummer 1 bezeichnete Gruppe, gegen Teile der Bevölkerung oder gegen einen Einzelnen wegen dessen Zugehörigkeit zu einer in Absatz 1 Nummer 1 bezeichneten Gruppe oder zu einem Teil der Bevölkerung aufstachelt, b) zu Gewalt- oder Willkürmaßnahmen gegen in Buchstabe a genannte Personen oder Personenmehrheiten auffordert oder c) die Menschenwürde von in Buchstabe a genannten Personen oder Personenmehrheiten dadurch angreift, dass diese beschimpft, böswillig verächtlich gemacht oder verleumdet werden oder 2. einen in Nummer 1 Buchstabe a bis c bezeichneten Inhalt (§ 11 Absatz 3) herstellt, bezieht, liefert, vorrätig hält, anbietet, bewirbt oder es unternimmt, diesen ein- oder auszuführen, um ihn im Sinne der Nummer 1 zu verwenden oder einer anderen Person eine solche Verwendung zu ermöglichen."
- Aus 2.1.3 Völkerrechtsverbrechenbezogene Volksverhetzung
"Zum Dezember 2022 wurde der neue Straftatbestand der völkerrechtsverbrechenbezogenen Volksverhetzung in § 130 Absatz 5 StGB eingeführt. Hiernach ist es strafbar, eine Handlung der in den §§ 6 bis 12 VStGB bezeichneten Art gegen eine der in § 130 Absatz 1 Nr. 1 StGB bezeichneten Personenmehrheiten öffentlich in einer Weise zu billigen, die geeignet ist, zu Hass oder Gewalt gegen eine solche Personenmehrheit aufzustacheln und den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören..."
- Aus 2.1.4 Bildung und Unterstützung terroristischer Vereinigungen
"Nach § 129a Absatz 1 StGB macht sich wegen der Bildung terroristischer Vereinigungen strafbar, „(1) Wer eine Vereinigung (§ 129 Absatz 2) gründet, deren Zwecke oder deren Tätigkeit darauf gerichtet sind 1. Mord (§ 211) oder Totschlag (§ 212) oder Völkermord (§ 6 des Völkerstrafgesetzbuches) oder Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit (§ 7 des Völkerstrafgesetzbuches) oder Kriegsverbrechen (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 oder § 12 des Völkerstrafgesetzbuches) oder 2. Straftaten gegen die persönliche Freiheit in den Fällen des § 239a oder des § 239b(…) zu begehen, oder wer sich an einer solchen Vereinigung als Mitglied beteiligt"
- Aus 2.1.5 Verbreiten von Propagandamitteln terroristischer Organisationen und Verwenden von deren Kennzeichen
"Unter Strafe steht es schließlich auch, Propagandamittel terroristischer Organisationen zu verbreiten und deren Kennzeichen zu verwenden (§§ 86, 86a StGB)."
:::
§ 130 Volksverhetzung (Deutschland)
::: spoiler Auszug
(3) ..., wer eine unter der Herrschaft des Nationalsozialismus begangene Handlung der in § 6 Abs. 1 des Völkerstrafgesetzbuches bezeichneten Art in einer Weise, die geeignet ist, den öffentlichen Frieden zu stören, öffentlich oder in einer Versammlung billigt, leugnet oder verharmlost. (4) ..., wer öffentlich oder in einer Versammlung den öffentlichen Frieden in einer die Würde der Opfer verletzenden Weise dadurch stört, dass er die nationalsozialistische Gewalt- und Willkürherrschaft billigt, verherrlicht oder rechtfertigt."
:::
Einige weiterführende Links:
- Öffentliches Billigen oder Gutheißen von Straftaten (Deutschland)
- Hass und Hetze im Strafrecht (Deutschland)
- Leitfaden zur Verfolgung antisemitischer Straftaten
- Aktuelle Beispiele von Antisemitismus
- https://www.bundeskanzleramt.gv.at/kampagne-gegen-antisemitismus/fragen-und-antworten/antisemitismus-im-internet-moegliche-rechtliche-konsequenzen/moegliche-strafrechtliche-folgen.html (Österreich)
Wir stehen in diesem Fall vollständig hinter den Moderatoren von [email protected], bei rechtlichen Unsicherheiten lieber zu viel als zu wenig zu entfernen.
Auslöser für die aktuelle Debatte ist u.a. dieser Post, welcher der Entfernung eines Kommentars folgte, für einen Vergleich des Nationalsozialismus mit der aktuellen Situation in Israel, was unserem Verständnis nach als Verharmlosung des Nationalsozialismus betrachtet werden kann. Derartige Aussagen können u.a. zu Haftstrafen führen. In dem Post wurde u.a. behauptet, dass die Entfernung zionistische Hintergründe hätte, eine Anschuldigung die grundsätzlich von entsprechenden Nachweisen unterstützt sein sollte, und vor welcher ausgeschlossen werden sollte, dass es alternative Erklärungen gibt.
Wir werden nicht jeden Kommentar der Ansatzweise in die Richtung geht entfernen, jedoch behalten wir uns vor Personen die unsere Instanz, Admins, Moderatoren, oder andere Nutzer ohne stichhaltige Argumente als Nazis oder Zionisten beschuldigen, insbesondere wenn dies mehr als ein vereinzelter Kommentar ist, permanent von feddit.org auszuzschließen.
Hierzu gehören auch Inhalte wie dieser Post von @[email protected], welcher kurz davor bereits aufgrund von vielfachen Aufrufen zu Gewalt und Terror von unserer Instanz gebannt wurde. Diese Person scheint zudem auch die Instanz quokk.au zu administrieren, oder zumindest gute Beziehungen zum Admin zu haben, da wir in nahem zeitlichen Zusammenhang eine Zensur auf Fediseer von quokk.au erhalten haben, in welcher wir als Zionisten und Nazis beschuldigt werden, und @[email protected] in den Raum gestellt hat quokk.au von uns zu deföderieren (Archiv).
Falls diese Zensur von quokk.au nicht zeitnah zurückgenommen werden sollte werden wir quokk.au von unserer Seite für diese anhaltslosen und unwahren Anschuldigungen deföderieren. quokk.au ist eine relativ kleine Instanz mit nur wenigen lokalen Nutzern, welche versucht hat eine alternative Newscommunity aufzubauen, die nicht auf einer der "großen" Instanzen liegt. Leider scheint auch diese Community eine schlechte Alternative zu sein, wenn dies der reguläre Umgang des dortigen Admins ist.
Hello all,
in the last few days there have been some accusations against the moderators of [email protected] as well as against our admin team of being Nazis or Zionists, mainly because of the way of dealing with criticism of Israel.
We explicitly reject these accusations and will not tolerate such accusations. In particular, people who accuse others in this way without any concrete objective reason are not welcome on feddit.org. This is already covered by our rule of respectful interaction.
First of all, we would like to remind you, that the use of feddit.org must be compliant with the rights and regulations of the DACH region. This is explicitly mentioned in our instance rules, and includes Germany (D), Austria (A) and Switzerland (CH). The infrastructure of feddit.org is maintaind by the Fediverse Foundation, a non-profit association in Austria. Our Admin team, which takes care of the instance wide moderation, organization and supporting infrastructure operations, is based in Germany. Since we primarily target the German speaking coutries, we also try to comply with laws and regulations of Switzerland.
Even if we do not have to actively search for violations of the law, it is necessary to intervene after becoming aware of them. This includes, for example when moderators or admins receive messages about posts or comments, but also when such content is discovered by chance when browsing Lemmy.
https://www.wko.at/internetrecht/providerhaftung
In the case of “hosting”, the service provider has limited liability if the provider
- has no actual knowledge of specific unlawful activities or content and is not aware of any facts or circumstances with regard to claims for damages from which the unlawful activity or content is obvious, and
- as soon as it obtains this knowledge or awareness, takes swift action to block access to the illegal content or to remove it.
Relevant criminal offenses include the following:
Legal instruments against the dissemination of anti-Semitic statements or statements condoning terrorist acts of the German Parliament (German)
::: spoiler Excerpt, unofficial translation
Translated through deepl.com. May not be fully accurate from a legal perspective.
- From 2.1.1 Criminal condoning of criminal acts
According to Section 140 No. 2 StGB, anyone who publicly condones certain types of unlawful acts listed in Sections 140, 138 and 126 StGB in a manner that is likely to disturb the public peace is liable to prosecution. Such related offenses include murder (§ 211 StGB), manslaughter (§ 212 StGB), genocide (§ 6 VStGB), crimes against humanity (§ 7 VStGB), war crimes (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 VStGB) and aggression (§ 13 VStGB), but also various offenses directed against sexual self-determination or personal freedom...”
- From 2.1.2 Incitement to hatred
Pursuant to Section 130(1) StGB, anyone who, in a manner likely to disturb the public peace, 1. incites hatred against a national, racial, religious or ethnic group, against parts of the population or against an individual because of their membership of a designated group or part of the population, incites violence or arbitrary measures or 2. attacks the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming a designated group, parts of the population or an individual because of their membership of a designated group or part of the population"(...)”1. distributes or makes available to the public any content (Section 11(3)) or offers, provides or makes available to a person under the age of eighteen any content (Section 11(3)) that a) incites hatred against a group referred to in subsection 1(1), against sections of the population or against an individual because of his or her membership of a group referred to in subsection 1(1) or of a section of the population, b) incites violence or arbitrary measures against persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a), or c) attacks the human dignity of persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a) by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming them, or 2. produces, obtains, supplies, keeps in stock, offers, advertises or undertakes to import or export content referred to in number 1 letters a to c (§ 11 paragraph 3) in order to use it in the sense of number 1 or to enable another person to make such use of it.”
- From 2.1.3 Incitement to hatred related to crimes under international law
"As of December 2022, the new criminal offense of incitement to hatred related to a crime under international law was introduced in Section 130 (5) StGB. According to this, it is a criminal offense to publicly condone an act of the type specified in Sections 6 to 12 of the German Criminal Code against one of the majorities of persons specified in Section 130 (1) No. 1 of the German Criminal Code in a manner that is likely to incite hatred or violence against such a majority of persons and to disturb public peace...”
- From 2.1.4 Formation and support of terrorist organizations
Pursuant to Section 129a(1) StGB, “(1) Whoever establishes an association (Section 129(2)) whose purposes or whose activities are directed towards 1. murder (§ 211) or manslaughter (§ 212) or genocide (§ 6 of the International Criminal Code) or crimes against humanity (§ 7 of the International Criminal Code) or war crimes (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 or § 12 of the International Criminal Code) or 2. offenses against personal freedom in the cases of § 239a or § 239b (...), or whoever participates in such an association as a member ”
- From 2.1.5 Disseminating propaganda material of terrorist organizations and using their emblems
"Finally, it is also a punishable offence to disseminate propaganda material of terrorist organizations and to use their emblems (Sections 86, 86a StGB).”
:::
Section 130 Incitement of masses
::: spoiler Excerpt, unofficial translation
Translated through deepl.com. May not be fully accurate from a legal perspective.
(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the kind indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law in a manner suited to causing a disturbance of the public peace incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or a fine.
(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner which violates the dignity of the victims by approving of, glorifying or justifying National Socialist tyranny and arbitrary rule incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or a fine.
:::
Some further links, mostly in German:
- Öffentliches Billigen oder Gutheißen von Straftaten (Deutschland)
- Hass und Hetze im Strafrecht (Deutschland)
- Leitfaden zur Verfolgung antisemitischer Straftaten
- Working definition of antisemitism
- https://www.bundeskanzleramt.gv.at/kampagne-gegen-antisemitismus/fragen-und-antworten/antisemitismus-im-internet-moegliche-rechtliche-konsequenzen/moegliche-strafrechtliche-folgen.html (Österreich)
In this instance, we fully support the moderators of [email protected] to potentially remove too much rather than too little in case of legal uncertainties.
One of the triggers for the current debate is this post, which followed the removal of a comment comparing National Socialism with the current situation in Israel, which can be considered a trivialization of National Socialism. Such statements can, among other things, lead to imprisonment. Among other things, the post claimed that the removal had a Zionist motive, an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.
We will not be removing every comment that goes even remotely in this direction, but we reserve the right to permanently ban users from feddit.org who make unfounded accusations, such as labeling our instance, admins, moderators, or other users as Nazis or Zionists, without substantial supporting arguments. This is especially the case when this is recurring behavior and not an isolated incident.
This includes content such as this post by @[email protected], who was banned from our instance shortly before that post due to multiple incitements of violence and terrorism. This person also seems to be the admin of the instance quokk.au, or at least to have good relations to the admin, since we received a censure on Fediseer from quokk.au around the same time, in which we are being accused of being Zionists and Nazis, and @[email protected] has suggested to defederate quokk.au from us (archive).
If this censure by quokk.au is not withdrawn in a timely manner, we will defederate quokk.au from our side for these unsubstantiated and untrue accusations. quokk.au is a relatively small instance with only a few local users, which tried to build an alternative news community that is not on one of the “big” instances. Unfortunately, this community also seems to be a poor alternative if this is how their admin typically acts.
This dicsussion is far beyond ridiculous.
While we are playing "who's the better leftist?", accusing each other of Nazism, Zionism, Antisemitism and what not, talking about blocking and defederating each other for having slightly different opinions, the far right is uniting globally and getting stronger by the hour.
They are enjoying every second of it. The war in Gaza also plays in their hands when it comes to promoting antisemitism and/or anti-islam propaganda.
But to wrap this up:
The united far right are training in military camps and preparing to overthrow democracy and we are here losing our shit over one deleted comment. We are collectively doomed.
I can't believe that while lemmy is still in it's infancy people are already trying to tear it down for a conflict they are not remotely involved in and thereby harming a conflict which they are directly involved in, which is the fight against centralised social media.
couldn't agree more
https://mo-husseini.medium.com/50-completely-true-things-1ce672087b28
Fuck Hamas, Fuck the current Israeli government, Fuck the war criminal Netanjahu and his facist friend Trump, Fuck all the wars of aggression against Israel in the last decades, Fuck the current Iranian dictatorship which btw. supports terror organizations like Hamas, Fuck Hisbollah, Fuck Taliban, Fuck terror organizations in general.
The only ones suffering are the people of Middle East who would suffer less with a democratic two state solution.
It's always civilians who are suffering, it's so infuriating and frustrating
Also great link! Mo Husseini's "50 completely true things" is absolutely on point, everyone here should read this
(@everyone: Don't answer, 3h old troll)
Man I've been trying something but no one really believes in it.
Turn the christian narrative to antifascist. That's the core of this maga movement that is ascending them, some evangelicals trying to ascend Trump. At the core Jesus was a rising figurehead that became immortalized to show importance over the Roman empire growing beyond it's means with one man taking contr.
This is literally the time to raise behind that flag. Cause instability through nuancing their philosophy. Rather than be better amidst the fire, online escapism allows you to block anyone who has any disagreement with you.
Take their name and develop until they themselves feel so far from it, the way they truly are.
You are delusional. Your hatred makes you blind. I feel deeply sorry for you.
Just wanted to troll I guess. It was a sock puppet.
Are you all not conflating anti-Zionism with antisemitism? The two are not the same. This is misguided at best, and borderline tacit support Zionism at worst. To be clear, I am not accusing anyone on this instance of following Nazism, though the appearance of support for the Zionists can seemingly be an argument made.
Accusing (some) users of engaging in antisemitism, when in reality they are railing against a settler colonialist society engaging in genocide, is certainly a bad look.
At the end of the day, the instance is of course yours to moderate as you see fit. I’ll just block the instance on my end, as I do not support Zionism in the slightest.
🤷🏻♀️
voicing criticism, mentioning the crimes israeli settlers commit or discussing the genocide in gaza are not the problem.
the problem is equating the State Israel with the NS-Regime which is at least thin ice from a legal perspective, (see holocaust denial or relativation) and rubs me the wrong way on a personal level.
dont go around claiming that the goverment of israel are as bad as the nazis and don't demand the destruction of the state of israel and you'll be able to discuss the war on this instance without your comments beeing deleted or beeing banned. it is that easy.
That's not a big stretch, considering the current situation in Gaza. Of course it's easy. Is it right?
Israel must be condemned for its genocidal activities, without compromise. Just don't compare it to the actual Nazis (and even that only in a specific way as outlined in OP), because the German legal situation is somewhat unique in that respect and of course the Mods (and ultimately the site owners) don't want to get shut down. I really don't see why this is so hard to come to grips with.
It's not hard to understand. And I'm not crossing that line. But I disagree with the morality and ethics of the law restricting our ability to have frank and open discussions.
https://feddit.org/comment/6618458
i commented on why i have issues with that here. I guess something like deepl will do a good enough job of translating it to english if you can't read german. It's a complex topic and i struggle to get my thoughts on it in order even in my native language, so please bear with me.
I am not saying that what is happening in Gaza is not genocide, i am pretty sure it is and it is gruesome, but it does not compare to the holocaust.
It's also not needed for the discussion of the horrific situation or in order to criticize the actions of the IDF or the Goverment of Israel, so why even bring that up in the first place? it just poisons any discussion to be had, because it breaks it down to "You are a Nazi, or you are not" which is enough to feel good on social media, but nothing more.
I agree with you that what Israel is currently doing, while horrible, is not as bad as what the Nazis were doing at their peak. However, is it comparable to what they were doing in their early days? I have no doubt that Netanyahu and his ilk would escalate if they could, and everything I've seen so far of the average IDF says they'd be all too happy to follow along. Do we really have to wait for the exact same gas chambers to be constructed before we say 'Yeah, now they're just as bad'? The point of 'never again' should be to prevent the same situation from repeating itself. We're now in the early stages of that situation and going 'it's not that bad yet'. And are people who believe this, really deserving of arrest and legal action?
how do you go from "it's not as bad as the nazi regime" to "we should just do nothing"?
We absolutely should hold Netanjahu and his peers responsible, they are commiting war crimes and are orchestrating a genocide. arguing that is not what caused any comments to be deleted or users being banned.
I did not say that, nor mean to imply it. I'm just discussing the issue with restrictions on speech. I'm aware it's not the fault or within the power of the admins, and I'm not blaming them.
not allowing to downplay the holocaust, is something i really don't experience as beeing restricted in my speech, but equating the genocide in gaza to it, does exactly that.
It was not 'just' genocide it was the industrialization of killing, it was slavework, it was the dehuminisation of everyone the nazis deemed 'undesirable' and it was getting an entire nation to go along with it.
There is quite literally nothing in history that comes close to that and implying otherwise is a disservice to every victim and survivor of it and it downplays the guilt the perpetrators have to bear, and thats nothing i want to have.
Oh yes, it does.
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/thirteen-holocaust-survivors-compare-zionist-policies-to-those-of-the-nazis/
Does not compare to holocaust yet. What's a few ten thousands of murders when some other people did worse, huh?
How dare you compare this to what they've repeatedly say they wish they could do? It's disgusting how just a little genocide gets you criticism before they can even do the big industrial numbers all their media says they want.
Israeli genocidaires in their very own words:
I 100% agree with the feddit admins' decision to maintain their comfort above all else, this is in no way comparable with crimes of past German regimes /s
Holocaust survivors compared Israeli policies to these of Nazis and their own struggles against nazis to these suffered by Palestinians so I think we are fine in making parallels.
The issue is that German and Austrian law treats anti-Zionism and antisemitism as one and the same - it's German "Staatsräson". I don't agree with that and as far as I know the feddit.org admins and mods don't really agree with it either, but they do have to comply with local law.
That totally is incorrect from a legal point of view. Please inform yourself before posting law related information online.
You should explain that to OP, because as far as I can tell that is what they just said in this post.
You should read it again, it's not what's in the OP. German law is actually quite sensible here - you are free to criticize every country for its politics. Don't go around and spread hatred or advocate to erase the country from the map. Don't support terrorist organizations. It's totally insane that this is not common consensus.
Die Staatsräson steht in keinem Gesetzt verankert, im Gegenteil, das Konzept einer Staatsräson ist vordemokratisch und hat in einer Demokratie nichts verloren. Die 'Staatsräson' ist nichts weiter als ein politischer talking point (ursprünglich von Merkel), der seitdem als Fakt hingenommen wird
Mag sein, aber sie existiert trotzdem. Was sollen die feddit.org Admins+Mods dagegen tun?
In welcher Form denn? Richter urteilen nach Gesetzen, nicht nach Äußerungen von Politikern, oder? Und wenn doch, dann haben wir deutlich größere Probleme.
Die Gesetze und Polizei richten sich nach diesem Grundsatz, und die Polizei ignoriert dabei auch gerne Gesetze, ohne dass sie Konsequenzen fürchten muss. Und ja, das ist ein großes Problem.
Are Jews people? Do you believe that people do not have the right of self determination? Is the problem that Jews are not allowed to move to Palastine? Should Jews moving to Palastine not be allowed to form a state?
I am a Jew. We are of course people. We cannot allow the Israeli regime to continue its genocide of the Palestinian people. I am not advocating for Israel’s demise. I am not advocating for the displacement or otherwise harm to come to any person, which includes Jews. Can I make it any more clear for you?
Zionism is basically that the state of Israel should exsist. So being anti Zionist fundamentally means wanting to destroy the state of Israel.
That is your opinion. Israel and Palestine both deserve to exist. The illegal settlers should return the land they stole from the Palestinians (the rightful owners of said land), and 2 sovereign states should exist. The Palestinians deserve as much freedom as the Israelis. Right now, the Israeli regime is starving children, in hopes that these children die. There is no way on this earth that someone could, in good faith, defend such evil.
What's your definition of zionism/anti-zionism? I think there's a disconnect here.
I think this is the problem here, the working definitions for feddit.org seem to be:
But there are different definitions, mostly centering about israeli ethnonationalism and settler-colonialism with the important inclusion in those definitions that Zionism contains a strong anti-palestinian/anti-arab sentiment and is inherently displacing. And then there is Neo-Zionism, which is a genocidal, far-right and ultranationalistic movement that wants to get rid of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West-Bank.
With the working definition of feddit.org you can absolutely be a Zionist and be pro-Palestine at the same time, with the Neo-Zionist definition, you most certainly can not.
Likewise there are definitions of anti-zionism that do not include the removal of the state of Israel, but mainly oppose the ethnonationalist and displacing/trending genocidal aspects of these other definitions of zionism.
it seems like you oppose right-wing and fascist zionists. Which is obviously right, many left-wing zionsists oppose that too.
Lets just use Britannica for a definition:
You believe the state of Israel should exist -> you support Zionism and are in fact a Zionist!
I just used Britannica, because I did not want to use Wikipedia or something like it, but I am pretty sure you can not find a serious definition of Zionism, which would not make you a Zionists(including Wikipedia btw). In other words, I am very certain, that it is not just my opinion, but you just not understanding what Zionism is.
Just to be clear being for the two state solution or any sort of actions of the government of Israel, very much including genocide and war crimes, is entirly possible for Zionists. Like it is possible for to be critical of every other countries government, without questioning if that country should exist.
Nope. Zionism as per your definition is about Israel being an ethno-state, not Israel existing.
National state and ethno-state are not the same thing. Switzerland for example is a national state, but not an ethno-state.
in light of the shoah, a nation that protects the jews, a people that has been murdered and exterminated, is not be compared to a white supremacists who did not go through any sort of oppression or genocide.
Yes, Jews are people, and like all people, they have the right to self-determination, but not when it comes at the cost of another people’s land, rights, and sovereignty. The issue is not Jewish migration to Palestine in isolation, but the violent displacement of Palestinians, the ongoing military occupation, and the denial of their right to self-determination. Two peoples can exist in the same land, but not through colonization and apartheid.
I have learned that I am a racist piece of shit. So just kill me. I deserve it. Thank you
Not entirely sure what weird shit you’re projecting on me here but how do you not realise you’re the baddies? Look at the full history. Listen to Gabor Mate and have a bit of goddamn empathy. Yous should know a thing about generational trauma.
https://youtu.be/ph9XF39yjgU
Moderation ist nie einfach. Man positioniert sich fast schon per Definition zwischen zwei Mühlsteine.
Und man muss sich rechtlich absichern. Verstehen die Amis mit ihrer etwas missverstandenen ❄️🍑 natürlich nicht.
Ich hab mal die verlinkten Posts angeklickt: es kotzt mich beständig an wie schnell Deutschland bzw. dessen Bewohner immer noch als Nazis beschimpft werden, nicht nur in diesem Fall. Kann ich nicht weiterlesen. Aber danke dass ihr den wichtigsten habt stehen lassen.
Bitte haltet euch weiterhin an geltendes Recht bzw. sichert euch dagegen ab. Es geht ja meistens gar nicht darum die Aussage an sich zu zensieren, sondern den Nazi-Vergleich oder allzu hasserfüllte Ablehnung des Staates Israel. Wenn diesen Pfostenerstellern wirklich an ihrer Aussage gelegen wäre würden sie das halt ein bisschen anders formulieren, anstatt die Community mit ihrem "Nazi!"-Geschrei zu trollen.
edit: Do. Not. Feed. The. Trolls. (muss ich mich selbst dran erinnern)
Das Komment unter mir hat bewusst absichtlich und eindeutig geschrieben dass der Staat Israel kein Recht auf Existenz hätte nur um sich einen garantierten Ban einzufangen. Jetzt kann es anderswo rumstrotzen dass es ein Opfer deutscher Nazizensur ist.
Learn German or use a better translation software as you got the meaning behind that comment totally wrong.
Guck lieber auf das Account-Alter, bevor du antwortest.
Ja es war ein troll account...
Auch von mir voller Support für die Entscheidung und Stellungnahme.
Eure Position ist richtig, ebenso die der Moderation. Als jemand der damit früher viel zu tun hatte: Die Trennung zwischen Israelkritik/Kritik an der israelischen Regierung (berechtigt), Antizionismus(im Einzelfall berechtigt) und Antisemitismus(niemals berechtigt) gelingt euch und der Moderation gut.
Es sei aber an der Stelle noch darauf hingewiesen,dass ähnliche Anschuldigungen in der Vergangenheit tlw. mit deutlich als AI-Bot zu erkennenden, "Supporteraccounts" unterstützt wurden um Resonanz zu schaffen.
Ich hab die aktuelle Diskussion nur am Rande mitgekriegt, da die Ursprungsuser eh geblockt sind und mir gerade die Zeit fehlt da mal nachzuforschen, aber vielleicht ist das mal ein lohnenswerter Ansatz.
Anyway: Ihr macht hier echt gute Arbeit. Verdammt gute Arbeit.
Alles richtig gemacht. Tut mir Leid dass ihr euch mit diesen Spinnern auseinander setzen müsst und vielen lieben Dank für eure Engagement.
Gibts da mehr Rechtsprechung zu als den danach verlinkten Artikel, der allgemein von "Zionisten" spricht und nicht speziell den Aktionen der israelischen Regierung?
Ich halte es umgekehrt für eine Trivialisierung der Nazizeit sie auf ihr Endstadium zu beschränken ohne die vorherige Entwicklung zu berücksichtigen. Es war nicht der erste Schritt der Nazis Vernichtungslager zu bauen, es war der letzte. Vorher gab es Deportationspläne um alle europäischen Juden z.B. nach Madagaskar zwangsumzusiedeln ("Himmler [...] schlug „die Auswanderung sämtlicher Juden nach Afrika oder sonst in eine Kolonie“ vor"). Wenn man ernsthaft will dass sich die Geschehnisse des Nationalsozialismus nicht wiederholen, dann ist es meiner Meinung nach nicht nur legitim sondern notwendig auf eventuelle Parallelen in der Gegenwart hinzuweisen.
Ich bin studierter Historiker und ehrlich gesagt: Ich halte überhaupt nichts davon, dass man solche Parallelen zieht. Und ja, es ist eine enorme Geschichtsverdrehung und Verharmlosung, wenn man es überhaupt versucht. In der breiten Öffentlichkeit ist schlicht und einfach trotz aller Erinnerungskultur, trotz aller Gedenkstätten und trotz alles Geschichtsunterrichts nicht bekannt, wie effizient, skrupellos und industriell die Nazis den Holocaust durchgeführt haben.
Auf dem Höhepunkt, in der Operation Reinhard, von April bis November 1942, wurden 2,5 Millionen Juden ermordet. 10.000 jeden Tag. In speziell dafür gebauten Lagern, in die Leute per Eisenbahn verfrachtet wurden und direkt in die Gaskammern geschickt wurden und in denen es praktisch keine Überlebenschance gab. In Majdanek wurden in 9 Stunden über 18.000 Menschen ermordet. 1945 waren zwei Drittel der europäischen Juden ermordet und im Endeffekt hat nur der Vormarsch der Alliierten verhindert, dass der Rest ebenfalls ermordet wurde.
Das ist die viel beschworene Singularität des Holocausts, nämlich das systematische, industrielle Morden in speziellen Mordfabriken. Diese industrielle Rate an Mord ist in der langen Geschichte der Völkermorde einzigartig. Die Lager Stalins waren grausam, aber eben keine Vernichtungslager mit Gaskammer. Das gilt auch für andere Völkermorde.
Wenn man also den Gazakrieg ehrlich mit dem Holocaust vergleicht, dann merkt man sehr schnell, dass das etwas vollkommen anderes ist. Und wer dann ernsthaft beides gleichsetzt, der Verharmlost den Holocaust ungemein auf einem Level, der fast schon an Holocaust-Leugnung grenzt. Das wird jetzt hier garantiert jemanden dazu bringen, mich als "Genozidleugner" zu betiteln, aber: Wenn Israel im Gazastreifen agieren würde wie die Nazis, dann wären da jetzt alle Frauen und Kinder tot und ein paar letzte überlebende Männer würden gerade als Arbeitssklaven zu Tode geschunden. Und ja, wir alle wissen, warum ausgerechnet Israel ständig mit dem Holocaust verglichen wird, obwohl die faktische Basis fehlt.
… danke für deine Einordnung!
Dein Kommentar hat mir sehr gefallen und ich habe mir erlaubt eine Übersetzung in einem der großen Diskussionsposts zu teilen. Ich habe deinen Namen nicht erwähnt um dich nicht ohne zu fragen dem Hass auszusetzen:
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/18635140
Meine Fresse, warum hab ich auf den Link geklickt? Diskussionen über Atomkraft auf Reddit haben bei mir schon Hirnschmelze ausgelöst weil es immer so unfassbar unnuanciert war. Ich bin mir ja bewusst, dass Deutschland bei beiden Themen eine gewisse Sonderstellung "genießt" und ich entsprechend auch geprägt wurde. Aber was da in dem Link hochgevoted wird schießt echt den Vogel ab. Ich will nicht mehr. Worte haben keine Bedeutung mehr. Erkentnissgewinn ist nicht gewollt. Hauptsache man drückt seine Meinung durch. Auf was die jetzt genau fusst weiß man nicht so genau? Aber Judenhass und Antisemitismus sind es definitiv nicht! Trust me bro. Nur wenn ich die Standpunkte und Forderungen mancher langer Diskussionsfäden zusammennehme bleibt mir implizit wenig Interpretationsspielraum übrig? Also ich unterstelle da nicht pro forma den Leuten Antisemiten zu sein. Nur hab ich die Befürchtung, dass ihre unscharfe Gesamtmeinung zu dem Thema sich erschreckend stark mit Antisemiten deckt ohne, dass sie es überhaupt bemerken.
Vergiss nicht das Lemmy eine absolute Bubble ist, die noch viel stärker ausgeprägt ist als bei Reddit. Das was du hier liest ist in keinster Weise repräsentativ.
Ja, mir stellt sich gerade nur die Frage ob ich mich in Zukunft dieser Bubble freiwillig aussetze. Das Thema ist auf Lemmy allgegenwärtig. So richtig sinnvoll rausfiltern lässt es sich nicht und selbst wenn bin ich mir aktuell nichtmal sicher ob ich mit einer Bubble andersweitig interagieren will die Meinungen vertritt wo sich mir der Magen umdreht. Der Konflikt an sich ist schon schwere Kost genug. Aber dann ständig mit diesen unterkomplexen, oft dazu noch in Hass mündenden Dünnpfiff konfrontiert sein zu müssen.
So geht's mir auch, ich habe bei den meisten lemmy Diskussionen zum Nahost-Konflikt meinen Mund gehalten, da die Thematik extrem komplex ist und die Diskussion gerade auf Lemmy sehr vergiftet worden ist.
Genau das, jede Nuance geht hier verloren, wer es wagt Israel ein Existenzrecht zuzusprechen oder auch nur auf die problematischen Implikationen von Phrasen wie "From the river..." Hinweist, ist sofort todfeind/Nazi/Massenmörder.
Gerade die jetzige Diskussion um Feddit.org ist mir sehr sauer aufgestoßen und ich habe das Thema ein paar Tage mit mir rumgetragen. Der Post hier im Haupteingang hat mich zumindest in der deutschen Community etwas Hoffnung schöpfen lassen, dass doch noch Platz für Nuancen ist, leider scheint das außerhalb von feddit nur extremistischen, borderline genozidalen mist heraufbeschworen zu haben.
Ich bin nicht sicher, ob ich mich wirklich ständig mit diesem doch sehr reaktionärem und plumpem Gedankengut konfrontieren lassen will.
Ja, unterschreib ich so komplett. Du hast meine Gedanken dazu nochmals deutlich besser ausformuliert als ich es könnte.
Das geht mir leider gerade genauso - Feddit ist nett und eine wirklich feine Community, aber der Nahostkonflikt wird seiner Rolle als großer Spalter wirklich gerecht. Diese ständigen Versuche alles zu einer "Diskussion" über Gaza zu machen, nerven mittlerweile nur noch. Dazu kommen dann diese wirklich unglaublich unterkomplexen Beiträge. Der Nahostkonflikt ist extrem komplex und wenn dann Leute mit völlig bescheuerten Onelinern einfach nur Parolen verbreiten, dann ist das halt Mist und macht keinen Spaß mehr.
Es wurde in dem Post aber nicht der Gaza-Krieg mit dem Holocaust verglichen. Sondern es wurde Nazi-Deutschland mit dem Staat Israel verglichen. Das ist ein völlig anderer Vergleich.
(Nicht dass ich den zutreffender finden würde)
Ich wüsste nicht, wie man Nazi-Deutschland ohne Berücksichtigung des Holocausts mit irgendwas vergleichen könnte. Das geht schlicht und einfach nicht, weil der Holocaust halt das große, alles überschattende Element von Nazi-Deutschland ist.
Also sorry, aber das ist absolut unwissenschaftlicher Blödsinn. Geschichtswissenschaftlich und staatsrechtlich gesehen ist das absolut nicht der Fall. Das Deutsche Reich im Nationalsozialismus definiert sich nicht über den Holocaust. Populärhistorisch vielleicht.
Du kannst den Nationalsozialismus nicht ohne den Holocaust betrachten. Das ist absoluter Konsens in den Geschichtswissenschaften. Punkt.
Der Vergleich mit Nazi Deutschland ist schon passend, entscheidend ist aber die Jahreszahl, Israel ist noch nicht beim Holocaust und Vernichtungslagern angekommen. Wenn man sich aber anschaut, die Entmenschlichung und systematische Gängelung einer Bevölkerungsgruppe. Gewalttaten von Extremistischen Gruppen("Siedlern") die der Staat geschehen lässt. Die schrittweise ethnische Säuberung. Das reimt sich alles doch sehr.
Auch hier möchte ich entscheidend widersprechen. Geschichte reimt sich nicht und alleine für den Satz "Israel ist noch nicht beim Holocaust und Vernichtungslagern angekommen" (mit dem implizierten "noch nicht, aber bald") solltest du dich doch schämen.
Dann solltest du noch etwas mehr Geschichte studieren. 😆 Das "bald" ist eine arge Fehlinterpretation von dir. Schau dir die Geschichte dieses Konflikts an, Israel operiert hier mit einer deutlich Langfristigeren Planung. Bei jeder Auseinandersetzung wird ein kleiner Schritt weiter zum Endziel gegangen, auch wenn das ganze Dekaden dauert. Ob das ganze dann auch mit Vernichtungslagern endet oder etwas das ähnliche Resultate produziert werden wir erst wirklich wissen wenn es vorbei ist.
Es geht um die unterstellte Intention und nicht um den genauen Zeitrahmen. Wenn ich dir vorwerfe, dass du mich morgen umbringen willst oder dass du mich langfristig vergiftest, dann darfst du in beiden Fällen zu Recht beleidigt sein. Aber egal, wenn du so denkst, ist eine Diskussion eh nicht fruchtbar.
Die Intention ist doch völlig offen. Es geht um die greifbaren Resultate und die Richtung in die sich das ganze bewegt. In deiner Analogie fehlen noch die Ankündigung des Mordes und die Vorbereitungen die einem bekannten Mordfall ähneln.
Komplett an der Argumentation des Posts vorbei. Wie viel Strohmann darf es sein?
Bin voll bei dir was die Anfangszeit angeht, aber dafür braucht es halt auch schon differenzierte Diskussionsbeiträge und kein gekreischtes "die israelische Armee ist die moderne SS!!!1elf". Ich hatte bisher immer das Gefühl das differenzierte und ruhig vorgetragene Argumente hier stehen gelassen werden und es den Mods vor allem um verallgemeinernde Aussagen und Ragebaiting geht.
Die Kollegen können dann gleich mein noch ausstehendes Antifa-Demo-Geld mitbringen! Wir sind immerhin eine ANTIFAmily Platin-Familie!
Bittesehr: https://www.diepresse.com/6109985/zwei-maenner-wegen-davidstern-bei-corona-demo-nach-verbotsgesetz-verurteilt
Der Bogen des Gesetzes ist also recht weit gespannt. Die Demonstranten haben gemeint, dass sie behandelt werden wie damals die Juden. Das Gericht hat hier eine Verharmlosung gesehen, die unter das Verbotsgesetz fällt.
Ah, das Ruanda-Modell!
100%. Ich hab auch in !europe[email protected] und [email protected] gesagt, dass ich anerkenne, dass in Gaza ein Völkermord stattfindet und dass ich weder Siedlungspolitik noch die Regierung von Israel unterstütze. Jedoch erkenne ich das Existentrecht Israels an, denn sonst aufgrund der Feindseligkeit gegenüber den Israelis und Juden, würde noch ein Völkermord stattfinden. Und das würde nicht nur Juden in Israel betreffen sondern auch die Drusen und die Bedouinen.
Und deswegen wurde ich von dbzer0 gebannt sowie von über zwanzig Gruppen (ohne Bezug) gebannt mit der Begründung "zionistischer Apologetik" oder "Zionist".
Eine differenzierte Meinung zu Israel und Palästina? Auf meinem Lassmich??
Oh Mann, und ich dachte dbzer0 hätte eher eine laissez-faire-Moderation.
Nope. Guck dir mein Modlog an. Und falls du sie dank des Banns nicht sehen kannst, das waren die bösen, bösen Kommentare, die das verursacht haben.
Was ist denn der Kontext davon? Haben die da echt genozidalen Kram gepostet?
Es sind eher die Implikationen. Es ist naiv zu glauben, dass eine Einstaatenlösung nicht zu noch ner Völkermord führt, insbesondere wenn impliziert, dass es ein Israel nicht mehr gäbe. Besonders die Animosität gegenüber den Israelis. Und wie ich in einem Kommentar erwähnt habe sind nicht nur Juden, sondern auch Drusen und Beduinen gemeint.
Naja, wenn es nur ein Kommentar/Post a la "Einstaatenlösung ist sehr gut" war, wäre der erste Kommentar von ahornsirup schon ziemlich überzogen gewesen. Ich stimme zu, dass das wahrscheinlich nicht gut verlaufen würde, aber der Tonfall macht da einen großen Unterschied.
Ich will zugeben, dass es vermutlich besser gewesen wäre etwas diplomatischer aufzutreten, aber der Kommentar auf den ich geantwortet habe war auch alles andere als diplomatisch, und so ziemlich alle in der gesamten Kommentarsektion waren ... sagen wir Mal ziemlich aufgeheizt.
ETA - Ich finde es auch wichtig festzuhalten, dass nur "zionistische" User gebannt wurden. Trotz identischer arschlochigkeit seitens der anderen User. Die Banns sind explizit dafür WAS gesagt wurde, nicht dafür, wie es gesagt wurde.
Hätte gern gepostet, lädt aber nicht. Kontext war ein Kommentar der explizit das Existenzrecht Israels verneint hat.
don't feed the trolls, please
It always are lemmy.café socket puppet trolls. I already have the feeling it's just a single user.
E: I see, it aren't only cafe-users. Still a great part.
Comparing Nazism to Zionism does not downplay Nazism. They are comparable, and if saying that will earn me a ban from this instance I will accept my ban proudly.
People need to understand that comparing ≠ equating. Are the situations the same? No. Are there parallels? Yes, absolutely.
Thank you for being level-headed. The people who accuse others of anti-semitism for comparing two fascist ideologies are doing fascist apologia, unwittingly or otherwise. The underlying implication of saying that "comparing Zionism to Nazism downplays Nazism" is that "Zionism isn't actually that bad." It ultimately doesn't matter which is worse, especially given that's something that could only be determined in hindsight. What matters is that it's happening again right before our eyes and it needs to be called out.
It can be called out without making totally inadequate comparisons to the historical Nazis.
Zionism is primarily a settler-colonialist project. The Nazis were not, but if you want to make historical comparisons there are plenty of other settler-colonialist examples that engaged in genocide of the native population.
Why should it be the case that settler-colonial projects can only be compared to other settler-colonial projects? Fascism is fascism whether it's in support of settler-colonialism or imperial expansionism. Yes, it's a valid distinction to make, but it does not invalidate comparisons to Nazism.
What you're doing is a bit like seeing someone compare bees and ants on the basis that they are both colony builders and saying the comparison is inadequate because bees do it to make honey and ants don't.
Why do you insist on comparing it especially to the Nazis? Apparently you agree that what the Nazis did was especially bad as otherwise you would not insist on them specifically to make that comparison. But what Israel is doing isn't anywhere near the scale of the atrocities the Nazis did and it is pure speculation on how bad it could still get. That doesn't mean what the Israelis are doing isn't also really bad, but with a comparison to the historical Nazis you are either showing your ignorance or (hopefully not) exposed your intention to trivialize the industrial murder of many million human beings.
When I compare Zionism to Nazism my primary point is that the fundamental values that motivate both ideologies are the same. The scale of the atrocities committed in the name of each is irrelevant to that point. Both are fascist ideologies and are underpinned by the same current of political thought. In that sense Zionism can be seen not as an entirely separate phenomenon, but a continuation of the same historical fascist project. They share the common goal of the "sorting of the races," envisioning a world in which each nationality has their own isolationist ethnostate competing for dominance and superiority.
To put it simply, all fascist movements are knots in the same thread that weaves its way through history, and they all build on and reinforce one another. Are there more apt comparisons to be made? Absolutely, but it would be ahistorical to try and sweep the myriad connections that Zionism has to Nazism under the rug, especially when you consider that Nazis had direct involvement in the beginnings of the Zionist project.
That's what decades of guilt tripping does to Germans. Seems like everyone on feddit.org seems to be Anti-German. It's insane...
Talk with German Leftists about anything, but never ever make the mistake of mentioning Israel.
Exactly. Especially Palestinians won't give a shit what we call it or compare it to. Genocide is genocide and it's not a contest. But Germans apparently want to be known as being the best at it or something, idk.
I'm sorry for letting this out on you but, this is really annoying, because every argument like this completely misses the point and I've seen a lot if those. No one is saying Nazism and Zionism aren't comparable, no one is saying there aren't parallels, no one is saying one event was more or less bad. What is being said, that the current events should not, at least yet, be compared to the Nazi regime or time in its entirety. Because that would actually downplay it.
I find yours to be a weird argument. Not wrong, just weird.
Nazi Germany was not at all times the death-machine that it is now associated with, there was buildup. By your own admission, Israel's crimes are not yet at Nazi Germany's level, but still exist.
I guess the best thing to do would be compare it to points along the Nazi curve? "Here we have the analogue to the invasion of Czechoslovakia, here the point comparable to the Kristallnacht"
Yes you can compare individual events and policies and draw paralles, but don't compare them as a whole. Things like this shouldn't be compared as a whole
Everything is comparable to everything, but that doesn't make every comparison a good or appropriate comparison.
If you want to compare Israel's settlement policies in general and the genocide in Gaza in particular to anything, the United States and the American treatment of the natives would probably be a good place to start looking.
See my comment below.
While Israel is actively starving 2 million people. This is peak Nazism.
Imagine getting downvoted, removed, and banned for being ironic about how Feddit is tolerating genocide.
Certified Zionist moment.
I agree with this post. You can condemn Israel's actions towards Palestine without supporting Hamas and their terror towards Israel and Palestine.
What many pro-Hamas supporters don't understand is that Hamas doesn't have good intentions toward Palestine.
Seems sympathy and consideration of nuance is conflated with support.
Apparently not with all the wannabe terrorists on here.
The german space and comments on there feel like the only sane places on Lemmy. Mods are doing a good job.
You support terrorists, you have no merit to judge anyone.
Most constructive comment of yours?
Könnte man hier vielleicht die Kommentare deaktivieren? Ich finde es furchtbar unangemessen, was man hier teilweise lesen muss.
Ich finde es krass wie manche Nutzer so leichtfertig die Nazikeule rumschwingen und eine Defederation erzwingen wollen.
Danke, dass ihr hier aktiv werdet. Es gibt, m. E. durchaus Berechtigung zur Kritik am Vorgehen der gegenwärtigen Israelischen Regierung (etwa Hilfslieferungen nicht durchzulassen, weil die Terrororganisation diese entwenden und gegen Geld für weitere Terroraktionen/ihren Kampf verwenden könnte! Die Gefahr besteht in der Tat, aber deswegen lässt man keine Zivilisten (ver-)hungern, meiner Meinung nach.
Antizionismus ("from the ricer to the sea")aber und Antisemitismus sollten gerade im deitschssprachigen Raum ein absolutes No-Go sein. Und die Gleichsetzung der Israelischen Kriegsführung mit dem Nationalsozialismus ist auch meines Erachtens eine Verharmlosung des Holocausts … selbst wenn Gerichte später Kriegsverbrechen dort attestieren sollten!
Berechtigte Kritik kann und sollte geäußert werden dürfen aber Beschuldigungen Nazis und Zionisten zu sein … sowas begegnet mir zuletzt leider gehäuft und ich bin dankbar, dass ihr solches hier unterbindet. Danke!
Antizionismus ist sowohl rechtlich wie auch ethisch legitim, angesichts illegaler Besatzung und schwerer Kriegs- und Menschenrechtsverbrechen aus meiner Sicht auch geboten. Zur Gleichsetzung von Antizionismis mit Antisemitismus gab es erst gestern einen Gastbeitrag von Dr. Itamar Mann in der FAZ, der sich für die Verwendung der JDA Definition von Antisemitismus ausspricht.
https://archive.is/iqk1A
Wer sich pauschal gegen Antizionismus stellt, stellt sich auch gegen Vielfalt innerhalb der jüdischen Communities. Mit der Gleichsetzung von Antizionismus und Antisemitismus werden Angriffe auf Jüdinnen und Juden, die sich nicht der "Staatsräson" unterwerfen, gerechtfertigt.
Es ist eine schwierige Diskussion, die aber dringend geführt werden muss, ohne auf entsprechende Maximalpositionen zu gehen.
Das No-Go sollten dabei Verstöße gegen Menschenrechte und Völkerrecht sein.
Es gibt einen großen Unterschied zwischen Antizionismus 1945 und 2025. Israel existiert 2025, und zwar schon seit fast 80 Jahren. Ein Großteil der Israelis ist dort geboren und aufgewachsen, und hat keine andere Heimat. Das muss in der Debatte immer berücksichtigt werden.
Genau das - und man sollte auch nicht vergessen, dass ein nicht kleiner Teil der Juden in Israel lebt, weil sie Post-1948 aus anderen arabischen Staaten vertrieben wurden. Auch wenn man Vertreibungen und Fluchtbewegungen nicht gegeneinander aufrechnen darf, ist die gesamte Debatte von einer extremen Schieflage gekennzeichnet - von einem Rückkehrrecht irakischstämmiger Juden in den Irak redet etwa keiner. Am Ende muss auch die Pro-Palestine-Crowd das Existenzrecht von Israel anerkennen. Es ist da. Und geht nicht weg. Außer durch Massenmord.
Ich würde mich als antizionistisch bezeichnen, aber ich möchte keineswegs die Vertreibung von Millionen von Israelis.
Ein Israel in den Grenzen von 1967, welches sich am Wiederaufbau des Gazastreifens und an der Übergabe völkerrechtswidriger Siedlungen beteiligt, wäre eine Form von Israel, die ich verteidigen würde.
Das aktuelle Israel, mit dieser Regierung, ist leider nicht besser als Südafrika unter der Apartheit. Diese aktuelle Regierung begeht wissentlich und willentlich einen Völkermord in einem Krieg, der schon lange nicht mehr als Selbstverteidigung oder Vergeltung zu bezeichnen ist.
Das ist eine völlig vertretbare Position, aber halt auch schon Zionismus. Die Unterstützung eines souveränen Staates Israel in irgendeiner Form ist Zionismus.
Where’s the post comparing Zionism to Nazism?
You can compare things and draw parallels without equating them or diminishing one of them.
There are/were plenty of holocaust survivors who made the same comparison.
Vielen Dank für euren Beitrag und schade, dass ihr euch mit so einem Unfug herumschlagen müsst. Der Nahostkonflikt besteht seit über 100 Jahren, hat zu zig Kriegen und Verbrechen geführt und eine Friedenslösung ist nicht in Sicht. Nichts, was wir hier ins Internet schreien, wird diesen Konflikt lösen, befrieden oder auch nur ein Quäntchen helfen, um Blutvergießen in Zukunft zu verhindern.
Ich sehe gerade in der Pro Palestine-Crows gerade einige lautstarke Extremisten agieren, mit denen man auch nicht mehr reden kann. Da wird man dann direkt als "genocide denier", "nazi" oder "zionist" betitelt und damit ist jede Diskussion dann vorbei - alles während gleichzeitig die Verbrechen der Hamas und anderer Organisationen verharmlost werden und ebenfalls geozidiale Parolen gepostet werden. Ich fürchte, dass diese Szene mittlerweile nicht mehr wirklich per Onlinediskussion zu erreichen ist und diese Vorfälle, wo dann wirklich wilde Vollidioten durch andere Lemmys laufen und Stunk machen. Ich denke, dass eure Position genau richtig ist - wer so diskutiert, will nicht ernsthaft diskutieren, sondern Propaganda machen und sollte hier dafür keinen Raum finden. Lieber schneller blockieren - wenn die Extremisten nicht mehr hier sind, besteht vielleicht eine kleine Chance auf eine fruchtbare Diskussion zum Thema.
(und ganz hart gesagt: Wenn keine fruchtbare Diskussion zum Thema möglich ist, ist es auch völlig ok, wenn man entsprechende Themen mit einem Moratorium belegt und sagt, dass diese in /c/europe oder anderen Communities hier keinen Platz haben
Wir sollten Menschen bannen die rechtswidrige Dinge auf dem Server tun oder die gegen unsere Richtlinien verstoßen.
Wir sollten nicht Menschen bannen deren Meinung uns nicht gefällt. Das ist ein wichtiger Unterschied der aus deinem Post nicht hervorgeht. Deine und meine Einschätzung von Extremismus und Propaganda gehen vermutlich sehr weit auseinander - und cih finde das müssen wir ertragen können.
Ich sehe das nach jahrzehntelanger Erfahrung in Onlinecommunities wirklich anders: Es gibt Leute, die nicht diskutieren wollen und die sind extrem toxisch für ein Diskussionsforum. Um das Thema mal vom Gaza-Konflikt zu lösen: Wenn du in deinem Technikforum Apple-Hardcorejünger hast, die alles bedingungslos feiern, was Apple macht und alle anderen Handys grundsätzlich kacke finden, dann wirst du keine fruchtbare Diskussion über Handys bekommen. Wenn du Leute akzeptierst, die den Klimawandel grundsätzlich leugnen, dann wirst du halt in allen entsprechenden Diskussionen auf keinen grünen Zweig kommen können. Dann gibt es genau zwei Wege: Entweder diese Betonköpfe vertreiben durch ihr lautstarkes Geschrei nach und nach alle anderen User (denn wer verbringt schon gerne seine Freizeit damit irgendwem, der eh nicht zuhört, zu erklären, dass Android-Handys ein paar coole Features haben?) und du bekommst eine Echokammer, in der die Betonköpfe den Ton angeben oder du findest einen Weg, die Betonköpfe aus deinem Forum zu kriegen. Leider ist da ein Bann häufig der einzige Weg.
Im Internet (und auch woanders) muss man nichts ertragen - und das hat auch nichts mit dem Thema "Meinungsfreiheit" zu tun. Diesen Mantel sollten wir uns ausziehen - ein Blick in die USA zeigt gerade schön, was eigentlich hinter dem lautstarken "Meinungsfreiheit" Geschreie der letzten Jahre steckt und wer das warum gepusht hat.
Die Communities haben nochmals die Möglichkeit das eigens zu handhaben und die Umgebung zu schaffen die sie für das jeweilige Thema wollen.
Ich bin ein großer Advokat respektvollen Umgangs, auch mit Menschen deren Meinung man nicht teilt. Es ist auch explizit in den Serverregeln verboten:
Den Menschen die das noch können müssen wir auf Augenhöhe begegnen, sonst wenden die sich an wer auch immer ihnen sonst Gehör verschenkt. Ich denke die Zeit für "nicht mein Problem" ist vorbei.
Ich finde es geht sehr klar hervor dass es @Obelix nicht um unterschiedliche Meinungen geht sondern darüber wie man diese vorbringt.
So funktioniert es doch auch. Ich nehme aber an dass du dir bei jedem Verstoss eine quasi-juristische Diskussion jener Gesetze oder Richtlinien wünschst? Das halte ich für unrealistisch. Man muss Moderatoren Handlungsspielraum geben. Das war mE auch schon immer so in allen online-Communities.
PS: problematisch ist das natürlich trotzdem und ich will damit nicht sagen dass Moderatoren nicht auch gecheckt werden müssen.
Obelix hat selbst noch geantwortet.
Ja, so funktioniert das auch. Ich will nur nicht dass das als Anlass gesehen wird jetzt etwas zu ändern. Kein Jurismus Fetisch hier.
Alles klar!
Mir ist sowieso ein Rätsel, wieso manche die Ungerechtigkeit in der Fernse suchen, während in Europa immer mehr Juden physisch angegriffen werden, und es hier genug zu tun gäbe. Juden, die in Europa leben und aufgewachsen sind, sind Staatsbürger des jeweiligen Landes - aber nicht von Israel! Und trotzdem werden sie mit dessen Staatsführung in einen Topf gewurfen und attackiert.
Für manche stimmt echt dieses Meme. Antisemitismusvorwürfe zu bekämpfen ist für manche wichtiger geworden, als den Antisemitismus selbst zu bekämpfen.
Richtig und wichtig.
As a Jewish person, and I know there's not a lot of us on Lemmy, I want to sincerely thank you for standing up, and enforcing your rules, I wish a much bigger amount of instances would adopt something similar, even tho I know it's not going to happen. It's very sad how many people use the existence of the sole Jewish state for antisemitism and how widely accepted are calls for a genocide of Jewish Israelis. I don't comment about Israel-related stuff usually, but I couldn't go by there.
It's really unfortunate that the Jews running the sole Jewish state had to set it up as an apartheid state on stolen land, thus tarring everyone of the faith unfairly with the stench of their genocidal colonial project.
If someone claims something happened on the fediverse without providing a link, they're lying.
Where are you seeing "calls for a genocide of Jewish Israelis?" Which instance? Because I've never seen that, and it goes against the rules of every community and would be removed immediately. Because you made it up.
By the way, just so y'all know, downvotes are not a substitute for evidence. Every downvote this comment gets is just one more person who was 100% incapable of providing a shred of evidence of this anywhere.
As a c/germany mod it had several cases of that. One non-germany case: https://feddit.org/post/12370463/6604714
E2: Comment by a user who also wrote things like this.
E1: So: You're wrong. Just because you don't see those cases, they don't have to not exist. And they sometimes don't get removed, this one probably because no one reported it, since everyone (myself included) thought other people would report it.
Double commenting to respond to this edit.
Hilarious that you're trying to twist that into being pro-Palestine. The idea of sending pro-Palestine protesters to Gaza is a common right-wing/Zionist talking point. For example, in 2024, a bill called "The Antisemitism Community Service Act" was proposed in the US House of Representatives that would sentence people arrested at pro-Palestine protests to 6 months of community service in Gaza. Zionists, such as this user, love to try to delegitimize critics of Israel by telling them to go to Gaza themselves if they care so much.
You misread the comment, they're on your side.
What they're saying is that the reason people are upset with feddit.org's moderation policy is that those people want to say stuff like "kill all Jews." They seem to agree with the moderation policy, saying "criticism of the government is allowed." Nothing in their comment suggests that they're criticizing the policy on the basis that they want to say, "Kill all Jews," all they're doing is describing (and defending) your policy.
Try again.
If you read the thread, you would have seen that it actually is the correct interpretation of this comment. Comment-OP also didn't care to correct me, because they hadn't anything to correct. And I will not start discussing about it just because you don't want to be wrong on something.
Lol. It's not that "I don't want to be wrong on something," it's just that I am, objectively, not wrong.
Let's look into this user a bit more to see if that sheds any light on which interpretation is correct, shall we? Did you know that they were banned from db0 for saying that the situation in Gaza is not a genocide? Huh! Weird that they would say that if they're so anti-Israel, don't you think?
Here is another exchange that proves they're on your side. In response to someone criticizing feddit's policy by saying, "Germany not be a fucking Nazi challenge impossible," they replied, "They’re Nazi by not questioning the statehood of Israel? The internet was a mistake."
As for the context of the thread, it was a different user who said, "Memes from a Zionist instance are never on my mind." Then someone said, "Care to elaborate," and this user chimed in to offer their own perspective on the controversy, which was a supportive, Zionist perspective, claiming that the only things feddit bans are things like "Kill all Jews," and that anyone who's upset about it is only upset because they can't say that.
I don't know why they didn't reply to clear up the misunderstanding. I'm not them.
This is so ridiculous, the only, singular example you can come up with is attacking a guy who's on your side, literally defending your instance's policy. What a joke! Talk about a persecution complex.
And then you say you "don't want to discuss it," because you know your position is not defensible.
This makes it abundantly clear that they are describing other people's positions and not their own.
E: It's amazing how many people on here are downvoting me and interpreting the user's statements as them being a raging antisemite, and yet, somehow, they are not banned from feddit. I think it would be very funny for feddit to ban someone who's been going around defending their moderation policy, so please, by all means, tell your mods to ban them! I'll make a post about it so that everyone around the fediverse who can read can all laugh at you.
Wer sich zum Thema Nahost ein bisschen bilden will: Palestinian American historian Ussama Makdisi on Gaza, Palestine & Israel - Jung & Naiv: Folge 762
Sind die Zionisten-Anschuldigungen dann nicht technisch gesehen zutreffend, wenn man davon absieht, dass "zionist" in solchen Fällen meistens mit einer ähnlichen Konnotation wie "nazi" o.Ä. verwendet wird? Frage mich, was die meisten dieser Anti-Zionisten von der Zwei-Staaten-Lösung halten ...
Die Verwendung des Wortes "Zionist" ist total interessant, denn ich habe das Gefühl, dass verschiedene Seiten damit verschiedene Dinge meinen, aber dass die User, die hier andere als "Zionist" beschimpfen, diesen deutlich anders benutzen als die Mehrheitsgesellschaft oder irgendwelche wissenschaftlichen Definitionen.
Vermutlich so viel wie die Zionisten.
Kommt darauf mit was man mit Zionist meint. Liberale Zionisten, sozialistische Zionisten und progressive Zionisten können sich mit ner Zwei-Staaten-Lösung anfreunden. Die restlichen Untergruppen eher nicht.
Die restlichen Untergruppen sind leider eine deutliche Mehrheit - oder wirken zumindest - von Deutschland aus betrachtet - so.
Ja, ich weiß. Ist schade, dass sozialistische Zionisten und progressive Zionisten in der Minderheit sind. Die Kibbutze sind ja ein Werk des zionistischen Sozialismus und viele haben diese Tradition den Rücken gekehrt wenn es geholfen hätte diesen Konflikt beizulegen.
Wie meinst du das?
Die Zwei-Staaten-Lösung ist bei Nationalisten beider Kriegsparteien eher nicht so gern gesehen.
Ah. Na die Frage ist dann doch, welche Definition von "Zionist" man verwendet. Wenn jeder ein Zionist ist, der nicht dafür ist, dass man die Juden aus Israel rauswirft und der nicht an eine Ein-Staaten-Lösung glaubt, kann nicht jeder Zionist ein israelischer Nationalist sein.
Du hast Recht, das ist unsauber von mir. Ich begreife "Zionist" als Begriff für die Befürworter des israelischen Nationalismus, wenn auch in Abgrenzung von Neozionisten ("Siedler").
Es gibt etliche Untergruppen von Zionismus. Nicht alle sind ultranationalistisch und wollen den Palestinenser was Böses.
Das ist richtig.
Danke für die Klarstellung, ich war mit dieser Diskussion fertig.
Können auch Überlegungen gemacht werden auch evtl. dbzer0 zu deföderieren? Die Admins dort haben auch so ziemlich die ganze Instanz als Nazis beschuldigt.
Zionism is predicated on "ethic cleansing" and genocide, in exactly the same way that Lebensraum or Manifest Destiny were. You should find mods subject to different jurisdictions, rather than enforce such unjust muzzling.
Mods of different jurisdictions do not change the jurisdiction of the respective nation(s) where the instance is hosted in.
The instance is not hosted in Germany, but the issue is that their mods are German and thus subject to German law.
As far as I know, there are some similar laws or ordinances or share some overlap. I.e., in Austria, where the instance is hosted, the phrase "from the river to the sea" can become a cause for reasonable suspicion and sometimes even prosecutable. However, take this with a grain of salt since I am far less educated about Austrian laws.
Anyway, as this post states:
Due to the target audience of Germany, Austria and Switzerland there are instance rules about abiding by laws of these regions. I do wonder though whether a mod, living and working from Germany, would have to abide by German laws regarding the moderation of content hosted on an austrian platform.
If they are forced to enforce rules that put human rights on an uneven playing field, they could at the very least add rules to make it even. Can't call for an end to Zionism? Okay, ban defending Zionism. Can't compare Israel to Nazi Germany? Fine, ban defending Israeli actions. You can comply with rules you find unjust and try to do something for justice at the same time.
[email protected] has 8K users / week and 4.92K users / month. It's not that small.
Also, as @[email protected] is banned from feddit.org, they can't reply to this thread.
Could we maybe have a new discussion where both sides can discuss and clarify potential misunderstandings, in a neutral community like [email protected] ?
the instance is small user wise (local users), not the community.
Deceptichum is banned for reasons not related to the accusations, which won't be solved by discussion. the admin account of the instance, @[email protected], is not currently banned from feddit.org. they have also received a message from us last night asking to withdraw the censure within 24 hours.
Defederating the instance would still prevent feddit.org users to interact with the community
All good then
of course, that's exactly the problem we pointed out in the original point. i haven't heard anything about quokk.au other than their news community, but we can't tolerate an instance ran by an admin that defames us by calling us nazis and zionists. considering that the community is moderated by a person banned from feddit.org this is something that must be expected to be leading to moderation issues regardless, as for example them posting announcements in the community, warning feddit.org users in comments, or trying to message them in private about their behavior is not going to work, so from their perspective it'll just look like feddit.org users don't care about their mod communications.
That community has other mods (such as @[email protected] ).
Deceptichum could also use @[email protected] to mods that community.
Defederating goes a step further.
I was just pointing out logical consequences of the state at the time, that was not an argument towards defederation. Sure, other mods can communicate if they're not banned from another instance, but as a mod you probably wouldn't be ban evading to get your mod communication through to someone, if you message them and it gets ignored due to never being seen by the intended recipient you'll just ban that person and move on.
And? If any communities/groups are missed, we can make alternatives on feddit.org or discuss.tchncs.de
Proudly follow the North Korea 🙄
Zionism is a colonial project, is the ideological underpinning for the genocide that Israel is committing in Gaza, and is the underpinning for the apartheid Israel maintains. You know who also committed a genocide? The nazis! So in that, Israel and the nazis are very similar. Personally I would say that this negates the right to exist for the state of Israel in its current form, but I guess that depends entirely on whether you view Palestinians as human or not.
You are either ignorant or do the same what you accuse others of. There is no realistic way the state of Israel stops to exist without a lot of bloodshed but apparently you consider the life of some people to be worth less than others?
Sorry, no. Apartheid was ended before and it can be ended again. We choose not to.
The life of the Nazis was very much worth less than the lives of Jewish people. The life of US soldiers was worth less than that of Vietnamese civilians.
This is no different. Genocide is genocide, you're not the first ones to claim the people being victimized are the real aggressors and the oppressors are being unfairly persecuted.
You are aware that most Israelis are civilians, right?
Palestinians are civilians, and that doesn't stop them from being bombarded, starved and tortured.
Israelis have compulsory military service and a large amount of reservists. Anyone occupying STOLEN LAND is an aggressor and by international law is a fair target. Nazis also moved civilians to the places they occupied after they kicked out the original owners, and I don't give a single shit what happened to them when the resistance went back in there.
And this genocidal shit is why I'm not giving anti-Zionists the benefit of the doubt. Bye.
Oh no, the polish genocided the poor Nazis when they kicked them out of the land they just stole 😭 the moral thing to do is to get all sad and let literal genocidaires do whatever they want without reply
It is one thing to kick out civilians who were relocated into occupied land, it is a whole different matter to call them a fair target and 'not give a shit about what happens to them' after having taken the land back just because the were obligated to serve in the military before.
Wow, my man. You are quick to decide how much a life is worth. Funny how you sound like a fucking Nazi. A few decades ago, you could have been one of the „finest“ of the SS.
Right, Nazis, famous for saying the lives of the powerful oppressors are worth less than those of their victims 🙄
"Death to the master race" -Nazis, apparently
Exactly this. Who do you think was framed by the Nazis as this powerful elite, deciding the fate of the world and ultimately destroying the german people?
It is always the same playbook with those motherfuckers. Demonize the „enemy“ by telling how almighty and dangerous they are, while at the same time diminishing them, making them less than human, their lifes worth less. Same shit happening in the US at the moment. Same shit happening in the middle east.
This is either stupid and ignorant or knowingly disingenuous.
Themselves, of course. The "master race." Only, they argued, because white people were so magnanimous, they had allowed themselves to be decived into granting "lesser" races power. Their solution was to reject any sympathy for the poor and marginalized, to denounce them as "weak," and to have the "strong" rule, mercilessly and unapologetically.
Now, you're trying to equate someone sticking up for the poor and marginalized with that, the exact opposite. And, for some reason, the people here hypocritically seem to have no problem with this, despite the fact that they describe other comparisons to the Nazis as "downplaying their atrocities." It's completely absurd.
The far-right nowadays is mostly supportive of Israel over the Palestinians, because their primary beliefs is that the strong should rule the weak mercilessly and unapologetically, as Israel does. It's the left, those committed to equality who are standing up calling for equal rights, or at the very least, mercy towards the oppressed.
Of course the Nazis saw themselves as the elite of the world, while at the same time dehumanizing the jewish population and depicting them as this powerful elite that took a big part, for example, in losing WW1. Look up the „Dolchstoßlüge“ or stab-in-the-back lie. Nobody says, fascist have a coherent world view. They love to play the strong man and the victim at the same time.
The person you are defending here is telling us, that jewish lives are worth less and (down below) that every Jew ist a „fair target“. They are not outright calling for the death of all Israeli Jews here, because they at least would be banned here and could be prosecuted under criminal law, but they are very very strongly implying exactly that. They are, ironically enough, at the same time comparing Israelis (you know, only the one kind, that has compulsatory miltary service), with the Nazis, while at the same time spreading extermination fantasies. Are you insane to step on their side?
You write it, the far-right loves the idea, that the strong should rule the weak. It stems from the believe, that people are fundamentally unequal. The left has the believe, that all people have the same worth. You don't get to call yourself a leftist and speak about more ore less worthy lives, like OP.
The situation in the Middle East is a fucking mess and there is no simple solution. I strongly believe, that every decent person should work to stop the war crimes, that Israel is committing at the moment. But apart from that, there is no clear good and evil.
i hope you soon get the help you so desperately need so you can stop telling people here to kill themselves and stop being a disgusting small-minded delusional weak coward - peace and love
i do not deny the genocide in gaza. i deny supporting genocide. but i know you couldn't give two shits about what i say, cause you have made your decision: i am your enemy and i deserve a bullet in my head. also because of my nationality. you sound quite Nazi for someone claiming to be against fashism. probably a /pol refugee trying to troll? also i'm not afraid of you. nobody is. peace and love
They joined the discussion saying all of us are nazis. No need to feed them, just ignore.
Well then, time to block your instance.
Zionazis know that they're protected by these idiotic, fascist laws, which is why they feel free to make these sorts of statements. They can directly invoke the Holocaust to talk about what they want happening in Gaza because they know anyone who mentions their comments will be denounced as an "antisemite."
To quote Aaron Bushnell:
Turns out what this instance would do is to protect the perpetrators from criticism.
It's perfectly legal in Germany to criticise the government of Israel. But, for example, if you're starting to call out for the death of entire population groups or nations, this quickly becomes illegal for good reasons. Further specific laws and intricacies are mentioned and linked to in this post, which you seem to not have read or understood.
I understand perfectly, including the fact that you are lying. It's not limited to "calling for the death of an entire population," but also extends to opposition to the Zionist project in general.
Israel is an apartheid ethnostate, and its identity as "Israel" is predicated on keeping Palestinians, who represent a majority of the population, as second class citizens, most of whom are denied basic human rights including the right to vote. To advocate, as any leftist should, for extending full and equal rights to Palestinians, is the same as advocating for the abolition of the Israeli state. Even if such rights were granted by the Israeli government, if the majority view was represented in government, the nation would quickly lose its identity as a Jewish ethnostate. As such, I say that from the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free, and I call for a one state solution that would eliminate the beligerant, expansionist, genocidal state of Israel, just as similar states have been abolished in the past, including apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany.
What I just said is not "calling for the death of entire population groups," yet it is still illegal in Germany
As for making it illegal to call for the death of nations, yes, that is the problem. Death to the Confederate States of America. Death to Nazi Germany. Death to Imperial Japan. Death to apartheid South Africa. Death to Zionist Israel. Genocidal states do not have the right to exist and calling for the death/abolition of such a state is a legitimate political stance. Anarchists, for example, call for the deaths of every state. A ban on calling for the death/abolition of a state is a ban on all anarchists and communists, it is effectively a ban on leftism.
You not understanding german laws does not mean that I'm lying.
Please define what you mean by "Zionist project", so I can respond appropriately.
I don't think the "israeli identity" requires discrimination of Palestinians.
Sounds like a false dichotomy to me. Demanding equal rights does not require the abolition of the state Israel.
This is stuff that can become difficult to say in Germany. You're free to critsise their military actions as well as their inhumane treatment of Palestinians. However, calling for the elimination of the entire state Israel is a problem, since German legislature affirms the protection of the life of Jews.
Regarding the article you've linked: this has happened right after the gruesome Hamas attacks and the mood was, understandably, extremely loaded. In a reaction the federal ministry of the interior has imposed a ban on any symbols and flags associated with Hamas. This, although ambigious and rather unproblematic before, also includes "From the river to the sea". As far as I know, not all attourney general's offices seek prosecution on this particular slogan though. And the German courts have not finally decided whether this slogan is denying the existential rights of Israel. Unfortunately, such a case has recently been retracted by the accused such that the German federal supreme court of justice won't be able to make a ruling about this very soon. See also (German article): https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/lg-berlin-502kls2124-hamas-from-river-to-sea-rechtskraeftig
You can perfectly argue for a (peaceful) one-state or two-state solution, as long as this doesn't infringe Israel's existential rights and does not advocate for harming the life of Jews. Currently, you just need to be mindful about using symbolisms that can be associated with Hamas.
Regarding the death of nations (or the nation Israel in particular), see above as I covered both the infrignement of existential rights of states as well as directly harming the life of people.
It's a troll. Please stop feeding.
Hey, since you're so, 100% confident that the user you linked to before is a raging antisemite who wants to "kill all Jews," since the only possible way that anyone could interpret their comment differently is if they were a "troll" acting in bad faith, then why, as a mod of c/germany, have you not banned them from your community? Why are you still allowing such a person to access and comment in a community that you mod?
If you won't ban them, then it's pretty obvious that you are a troll, that you're trying to pretend that they were saying something different from what they actually said, and you are fully conscious of that fact. If you actually believed it was so obvious, then there's absolutely no reason for you to not ban them.
I look forward to seeing you ban someone for a comment defending your own moderation policy, it will be hilarious.
aka doubling down, so you peeps can decry our instance as being fascist?
Dude, stop it. It's the first Usenet-rule.
So, just to be clear, trolling and anti semitism aren't against the rules here?
Aka following their claimed beliefs to their immediate logical conclusion.
I guess you're fine with someone you claim is an actual, overt antisemite, someone who anyone can plainly see wants to kill all Jews, just running around in your spaces, because you're afraid if you ban them, people will call your instance fascist? Is that what you're telling me?
The reality is that that interpretation of their comment is obviously wrong, and you all know it. You're blatantly acting in bad faith. The reason that user isn't banned is because you know that they aren't actually an antisemite who wants to kill all Jews. Because you know that my interpretation of their comment is correct, or at least, reasonable enough that other people would see it my way. But you're lying and pretending that my interpretation is not reasonable so that you can dismiss me as a "troll" and virtue signal to your in-group. That's all this is, you don't care what's actually true, and you seem to think downvotes change reality.
I am objectively correct about this. The reason you can't acknowledge it is this psychosis that if a Jewish person claims they're being persecuted, no matter how spurious and untrue that claim is, you have to accept it unquestionably. And you think that doing this, even to the point of coming out the other side defending genocide and Nazi shit, somehow makes you not a fascist.
The Zionist project is the attempt to set up, maintain, and expand a colonial Jewish ethnostate, on the incorrect assumption that a multicultural, multiethnic state that upholds the rights of minorities is impossible, and the incorrect assumption that an ethnostate is the only means of protecting the Jewish people.
If everyone in the region could vote, the state would no longer be called "Israel" and it would no longer be a specifically Jewish state, because Palestinians are the majority. They would no doubt vote to change the name to Palestine. ONLY through suppression of their rights can there be a state there called "Israel."
What does "eliminating the state" have to do with "not protecting the life of Jews?"
When South Africa was eliminated, some of the white colonizers chose to stay in the new state, many went to Israel so they could keep doing apartheid, and others went back to where they came or to other places. Just because their state was destroyed doesn't mean that the people were exterminated. Same thing with the elimination of the Nazi German state. If the destruction of a state was equivalent with extermination, then we wouldn't be having this conversation because there would be no Germans.
If I say that Nazi Germany didn't have a right to exist, does that constitute "directly harming the life of German people?" Yes or no, please.
Oh, I've heard that one before. "We all went a little crazy after 9/11." Used to justify all sorts of abuses, from Guantanamo Bay to Abu Ghraib. Has any miscarriage of justice, ever, not had some kind of excuse like that? Was Adolf Hitler's seizure of power not a response to the "extremely loaded mood" following the Reichstag Fire?
Of course, your side gets to make excuses like that, but if I argue that Palestinian violence is motivated by the "extremely loaded mood" of living under a genocidal system of apartheid, somehow, I doubt you'll extend the same courtesy. Seems like it's only when white people do bad shit that excuses like that matter.
You can argue for a one-state solution, so long as it doesn't infringe on Israel's existential rights? So then, you can't argue for a one state solution at all, unless it's a single Israeli state in which Palestinians are denied their basic human rights.
Thanks for clarifying what you mean by "the Zionist project". To put it in context, you previously said:
Based on your provided definition, I can assert my previous comment. Meaning: it is indeed perfectly legal in Germany to critisize and discuss the actions and motifs of zionist factions within the Israeli government who seek to create such an ethnostate.
According to Wikipedia, going by the jewish population alone, Israel hosts 7.2 million Jews. According to worldometers.com (which in turn utilizes data by the UN as per mentioned sources) there are about 5,6 million Palestinians (and about 1,9 million have an Israeli citizenship as per IMEU. So, assuming everyone could vote and each Palestinian would vote for renaming the state while each Jew would vote for keeping the name, no name change would occur in such a democratic vote due to the larger jewish population count. Thus, it appears your claim is factually incorrect.
Feel free to provide numbers and sources in case I've missed something.
Although I agree in the particular point that abolishing a state does not necessitate the elimination of its population, this is the common association for many people, especially in the german legislature and judiciary. That, in turn, is tied to many occasions of people who indeed called for the death of jews in conjunction with the destruction of the state Israel. I.e., it has become synonymous. As long as you make your distinction clear though (mentioning that you don't mean to harm the life of any people), I see less problems with making such statements. Some remain however, since Israel is a recongized state in the international community, manifested in international law. Therefore, calling for the abolition of the state of Israel can become demagoguery under german law if placed in a hateful or violence-gloryfying context.
So, long story short, as long as you make your context clear, I see less problems. However, often these contexts are less clear, mere "lip services" or the context makes the demagoguery nature very clear. Therefore, I find removing such content is justified and wise for admins of a social media platform who don't want to risk legal problems themselves for possibly being not strict enough. Better safe than sorry, so to speak. If you've got a problem with that, take it up with german politicians, not mods of a platform who try their best to keep it safe and legal under the respective jurisdiction.
Are you really equating Guantanome Bay and Abu Ghraib as well as the atrocities commited by Adolf Hitler to a german ministry banning symbolisms tied to Hamas? That's a teeny-weeny-bit different in intensity and horror, don't you think?
Again: comparing murder to banning symbols.
Apart from that:
In my personal opinion, there are only extremely rare occasions where killing people is justified. And in all of them, it's never justified to kill innocent civilians. So you're right: I don't extend the same courtesy to Hamas. Nor do I extend it to the Israeli military carpet bombing civilian habitation areas.
I think I've addressed this sufficiently before. False dichotomy from my point of view.
Every significant faction within the Israeli government wants to maintain the ethnostate which already exists. Advocating against an Israeli ethnostate is advocating against Israel's continued existence.
This topic appears to be more debated than I realized, but here is a source claiming the opposite.
No doubt, if Palestinians were given equal rights, more Palestinians would return to their homes, and if they were no longer being killed before reaching old age, it would not be long before they were a majority, if they are not already.
More like, it's become synonymous because Zionists want to make their fascist cause synonymous with the wellbeing of all Jews, so that they can dismiss all criticism of it as antisemitism. This is how it is now in the US as well, according to the state department, though it is a recent change that nobody voted for, going hand-in-hand with unconstitutional attempts to criminalize BDS, to make it a crime not to buy Israeli goods. It's all bullshit.
There are many Jews, such as those involved in the organization Jewish Voice for Peace, who are critical of the state of Israel, and the only ones who have any problems with them are fringe Nazis, and Zionists who see them as race traitors. These attempts to equate Israel with Jews are attempts to shift blame away from the fascist and genocidal state of Israel and onto innocent Jews who have nothing to do with it, and it plays directly into the far-right's hands. Zionists, meanwhile, are generally fine with actual antisemitism as long as the person supports their precious state - for example, the ADL defending Elon Musk's Nazi salute. If antisemitism increases abroad, it just encourages more Jews to come to Israel and validates Israel's founding lie that multicultural, multiethnic societies cannot exist harmoniously.
This is a cowardly and untrue excuse. Nobody should be hosting their instance in their own country, where the police would have jurisdiction (it's just bad practice), but also, it's very obvious from talking to, like, any of you, that you agree with these unjust laws and that you only hide behind them as an excuse, to make your position easier to defend.
No, I am not. Where did I ever claim that those are "equivalent?" I merely compared the two, much like when I compare Israel to Nazi Germany, which it shares many similarities to, I am not saying that the two states are exactly the same.
The point is that this "extremely loaded mood" is a bullshit excuse. The law is the law. Regardless of the "mood" there is legal precedent for people being tried and convicted for saying "from the river to the sea." Future legal cases will be able to cite that precedent. Furthermore, if German laws are entirely subject to the "mood" at the time, then there is no telling what you could be punished for, anything could be ruled illegal if the "mood" is "elevated" enough. You get how that's worse, right?
E:
Can't believe I overlooked this. Did you really just try to invoke international law to defend Israel? Are you being serious? Are we talking about the same brazenly expansionist and beligerant Israel that's been, for example, illegally occupying the Golan Heights for decades, in open defiance of international law and the UN?
I don't know about that, since I have not enough knowledge about internal Israeli politics. However, even if, that doesn't make untrue what I said before.
Thanks for the link. Until independent and official numbers are out, I fear neither you nor me will know how the proportions really are.
I disagree with that. Everytime I get knowledge about yet another person who has called for the death of all jews and the destruction of the state Israel, there are no Zionists necessary to tie those two statements together, or at least be cautious about it everytime someone says something like that.
What is BDS?
Yes, not wanting to go to prison or pay hefty fines is very cowardly indeed for a hobby project you don't get paid for. How can they?! Those cruel power-tripping admins and mods! They should all go to jail such that people can do whatever the fuck they want on the respective instance! /s
I think there are many good reasons to host an instance in one's own country. Well at least from a european perspective.
Generalizing over all users now, are we?
You haven't even asked whether I agree with all of these laws and ordinances. You just jumped to conclusions, like any other internet user as well (look, I am generalizing now too. It's so fun! Shall we continue? Yeah, I'll continue:) it's like Carl Gustav Jung said: "Thinking is hard, that's why most people judge."
Maybe stay off from the internet for a day and calm your tits.
I'm done here, you don't seem to be interested in a nuanced and well-intentioned discussion. If you want to hate the mods, the entire instance and Germany as a whole, go on. I don't give a fuck. I just tried to provide you with a more nuanced information basis so that you don't jump to such false conclusions.
Here:
Your comparison builds upon finding similarities, which I find suitable to the extent of "has any miscarriage of justice, ever, not had some kind of excuse like that?". But using Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib and Adolf Hitler as reference examples for a german ordinance that merely bans some symbolisms tied to Hamas blasts the balance extremely. Don't you see how your paragraph gives the impression of equating those instances?
It's not a law though, just an ordinance. And even one that is in part still disputed, as I've made clear before.
And the defendants will have the opportunity to object and elevate their case to the German supreme court of justice. A similar case was sadly retracted before by the defendant, as I've also mentioned. There is much debate about the legality of the use of this phrase, which I also have mentioned before. I am feeling like a parrot for repeating myself, but I feel like you're willingly ignoring these important details.
Yes. Luckily, a loaded mood was not the only reason for this and we're not that deranged yet to make everything illegal that doesn't fit the right mood.
Don't expect further replies from my side. I feel like I have said enough on this topic and you don't signal to me the willingness to discuss this in good faith with me.
Bro but it's illegal 😭 if you don't follow nazi law to oppose the Nazis how are you any better?
Fucking cowards
It seems you haven't understood this post.
I'm not sure I follow. Someone calls you names and your response isn't to block them and ignore, but force all the instance users to block them too?
Does that seems like proportional, respectful to feddit.org userbase, response to you?
Damn. (Apparently not actually) ex-nazis supporting neo-nazis. Who could have seen this coming?
This comments section really putting the Fed in feddit.
Germany is proof that the Nuremberg trials weren't nearly thorough enough, and the lesson will have to be applied when Netanyahu, Gallant, and the whole apartheid state apparatus faces the consequences of their genocide.
There is something iconic in that being said from someone that has their account on one of the Top 3 genocide denial instances
Well, that turned racist pretty quickly
Racist against white people? Lmao doubling down on being the genocide instance
Thankfully, we have better instances like world, ml, etc that don't moderate content that states the obvious lol.
Imaging simping for the poorly written speech laws of any country in the age of the internet where you can host your own instance on a cheapo VPS in whatever region you like.