Air Force Has Troops Remove Names, Unit Patches from Uniforms During Deportation Flights
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2025/02/07/air-force-has-troops-remove-names-unit-patches-uniforms-during-deportation-flights.htmlOpen linkView original on lemmy.world570
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The reenactment would be more convincing if they arranged the aircraft to look like train cattle cars and packed the deportees more tightly inside.
Next you'll tell me they're wearing pointy white "balaclavas".
Makes sense, they don't want to be pointed out from a lineup for just following orders.
https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Air-Force-Senior-Leaders/
Pick one. Assign blame.
Gary Ashworth was the first name i saw and he has a very punchable face
I agree, but James Slife looks more like the fall guy.
No names, no unit numbers, no way to definitively recognize any given individual at a glance?
So... hypothetically... someone who's not part of one of the active units, but who has the uniform, the ability to act the part, and the information required to make it happen, might be able to blend in with the oppressors during a military operation? Hmm.
o but pfft don't listen to me. I'm just a wild-talking stoner with ADHD
#stonerthoughts #hypothetical #justgirlythings #lol
If someone's got all that, then they're active military members. Also, the squadron would instantly recognize you as a new face and you'd suddenly become the center of attention within minutes. Even if you have a convincing story, everyone wants to know where you sit in the chain of command. Hell, the way civilians stand would make you stick out.
Sometimes, even active military members disagree with what they're being made to do. If multiple units interact for the first time, would a new face still stand out? What if a person isn't dressed the part long enough to even be spoken to? Or if someone in this scenario has military experience?
These questions are rhetorical, of course. I left the details open-ended in the first comment for a reason - I don't know what exactly is going to happen every minute in the coming future. But, I can imagine scenarios occurring where lacking immediate and accurate ID of an individual in uniform can be taken advantage of. That's all.
Going without identifying markings isn't anything new. OSI & special forces operate like that all the time already. Every single military member is going to have a CAC card and generally you'd be integrated with some unit. Outsiders stick out because no one seems to interact with them or know them. Military members are trained to identify and call out people that don't belong. In the air force the saying used is "every airman is a sensor". Basically, civilians, even if wearing the uniform correctly (hard to do) stick out because their mannerisms are all wrong. The way you put away/put on your cover (hat) looks weird if you haven't done it thousands of times.
Active military members are accounted for. You can't just "pop off to the Mexican border real quick".
I just don't really see the scenario that you're trying to insinuate.
You make strong points. Thank you for providing that insight.
I literally have every piece of issued flight gear I was given, including my helmet and O2 hook up... I've been retired for 12 years. They don't take it back and give it to someone else when you leave.
If you've been retired 12 years, then we served at the same time... It also means that your uniform (ABU) is no longer in service. Even if the ABU was still in service, id have a lot of work to do before I could blend in again... And I'm sure you would as well 😂
I wore flight suits, mostly... But my point was that if someone had served recently they'd still have all their gear. The gear isn't the hard part of the OPs proposal.
As a person from a military family, they'd clock you instantly. Once you live among military people, you begin to be able to spot who is or isn't military instantly. Even not being in the military myself, I can almost always at least guess their branch and get within a rank or 2. I've never seen my dad not get branch and exact rank within a couple seconds of talking to someone
On the other hand, I am a disabled adult who has never served or even been eligible for military service and yet I am still asked a handful of times a year 20 years after the last traumatic event I experienced if I have served, and with what branch. It's not always a sure thing. Traumatized neurodivergent people get close enough to fool some.
This comment is a delight.
Are we the baddies?
Always have been 🌍👨🚀🔫👨🚀
I mean - yes.
A Guide to Getting Out of the US Military (Now) w/ the GI Rights Hotline
I am not sure leaving now and letting people who may not have scruples about illegal orders remain is a good idea. If anything, it may be the opposite.
Hopefully, if the information gets out and enough people walk away, it would severely limit the ability of those who remain to do awful things.
Good people with guns limit the ability of awful people to do awful things. Good people who give up their guns, not as much.
Exactly why (if you can) you should be buying weapons to protect yourself and your loved ones. Protect is the key word.
Unless you're talking about 90%+ of the force resigning, they won't struggle to backfill with poorly train and radicalized militia LARPers. Probably a much worse situation
In that event, fascist cops just deputize any and all white supremicist civilians they can and give them carte blanche to commit violence.
Fuck's sake
Same thing they did when beating up and shooting BLM.
Edit: It’a really hard to find any report on the events during the BLM protests. I distinctly remember many mentions of the LEOs involved in shooting “rubber bullets” at protesters and beating them not having any identifying information on them. No names, no agency tags, nothing.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/politics/law-enforcement-badges-protests/index.html
Wasn't it like that for several days, nobody even knew who is abducting people from the street?
So, they are considered unlawful combatants? And therefore do not get the protections afforded under the Geneva Conventions, right?
Right?
Talk about jumping 4 steps down the road.
They are uniformed. No global convention or agreement mandates those elements be on a uniform. The nametag, unit patch, and other items on the uniform are just ways that force happens to enhance identification within the unit.
They are identified as uniformed members of a military force. This satisfies the convention.
None of this matters or applies at all given that there is no combat occurring that would fall under the Geneva convention. So they could be plain clothes officers and it wouldn’t apply.
Trump is a sack of dog turds, and what he is doing is largely stupid speed run overreach, but this hyperbolic shit just harms credibility of the already massive list of shit he is violating.
The top level comment says it's not legal.
The comment you replied to is saying that's not true, and that hyperbole doesn't help.
Your comment says that legality is not morality.
Settle down, take a deep breath, and think about what you're saying.
So like a secret police force? Hmmm where have I heard that term before...
One might call it a secret state police. Or maybe 'Protection Squad' or something. Maybe it'd sound cooler in German.
Not enough shame even so
Hey gang, I'm very closely related to this field and wanted to share some insight into this!
This is VERY COMMON practice for these situations. The idea is not to cover up inhumane tactics, but protect our personnel. While I'm sure a majority of these individuals are simple illegal immigrants who have no ill intentions, there are criminal gangs being caught up in this. Not the entire gang is being picked up, just the illegal immigrants. So the policy of removing identification from the uniforms is to protect the military member and their family.
These commands come from the highest level, meaning each individual service member is not making the decision for themselves, but they are being commanded as a whole. Much as some might not like the connotations associated with this, it is a common practice and relevant due to the stated purpose of these missions.
No, no it's not. Maybe when operating in dangerous missions while deployed overseas.... While working on American soil? No.
None of the other branches being ordered to do similarly sketchy quasi unconstitutional work have removed their identifiers, none of the other branches have opted to classify the work they are doing.
The Air Force has a pretty well known history of racism, rape, and Christian nationalist in their command structure. Out of all the branches it doesn't surprise me at all that the Air Force is the branch falling over itself to follow trump's orders.
I'm not sure how you can imply that you're familiar with how the military operates and then say something as ignorant as this.
All branches of the military "fall over themselves" to follow the orders of the President. That's literally how the chain of command works.
Be upset at Trump for assigning shit missions, but it's incredibly ignorant to attack any specific branch of the military for following lawful orders.
What do you picture the alternative to be? That some Airman should get himself court marshalled for refusing the order to remove his name and unit patch?
Could you explain how transporting people to their country of origin is an illegal order?
Or, maybe explain how you would handle the order as an enlisted soldier?
No, it isn't. Supremacy lays with the constitution. Befehl ist Befehl isn't a valid defense.
Yes, it is.
The Constitution:
There doesn't need to be a valid defense because no crimes are alleged.
The Air Force is operating a flight, chartered by ICE, to transport foreign nationals to their country of origin. The people are in ICE custody, ICE is the law enforcement body who is transporting them for deportation.
The Air Force is no more enforcing domestic law than Delta is when ICE uses them to transport deportees.
I think Trump's deportation program is massively destructive and likely violates the law in many places. But that doesn't mean that literally every aspect of it is a crime and everyone involved is acting illegally.
The Air Force isn't acting illegally by transporting ICE, which is the point of contention here. I mean, do you think that AFJAG is unaware that this is happening?
Don't confuse getting upvotes from outrage junkies with having rational opinions.
They are going above and beyond the assignment of the mission. As I said, the other branches have received similar orders but have made what they are doing public, and have not decided to operate anonymously.
Did I criticize the airman? No, I specifically criticized their command.
The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) signed on June 18, 1878, by President Rutherford B. Hayes that limits the powers of the federal government in the use of federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States.
Yes it is, those are Fly Away Security Teams (FAST) or Ravens. Go look it up, 95% of the official Air Force photos of FAST/Raven show people without nametapes, example taken from here.
Furthermore:
I can just take my top off if it's not too hot. My t-shirt does not have a nametape
I can just buy a nametape that says "Smith" or something common and you wouldn't know the difference.
And how often are they operating on American soil.......?
24/7
The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) signed on June 18, 1878, by President Rutherford B. Hayes that limits the powers of the federal government in the use of federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States.
Possie Comitatus has nothing to do with aircraft security.
Who said anything about aircraft security.....?
They are being ordered to enforce domestic policy on us soil, which is exactly what the law is made to prevent.
Maybe it shouldn't be. You know, what with accountability being a thing that people should be held to...
Should an airman’s family be targeted by cartels because they flew cartel members back to their home nation?
That's a good point.
Maybe we shouldn't have them do that in the first place either and if there are dangerous cartel members in the U.S., they can be put in U.S. prisons.
And after serving prison times what do we do? Most nations kick you out after you serve time in prison for serious crimes. How do you send them home?
Last I checked, planes not run by the Air Force flew to pretty much every country on the planet. Also, there are boats. And if we're talking the Americas, cars and trucks.
And if they have served their time, why do they need to be deported in a military plane?
Do we deport criminals housed in prisons for being dangerous people using commercial carriers?
They are being permanently exiled for their crimes why would ypu compromise that by letting them wander free?
I see. You think we should continue to treat former prisoners like prisoners even though they've served their sentence.
How very American of you.
Is this a realistic possibility?
Why would a cartel kick that hornets nest?
Yes, and they have killed service members before.
That doesn't mean that reprisals are a realistic possibility.
People manage all sorts of risks every day.
It's not a question of whether some infinitesimal risk exists, it's a question of whether removing names is an appropriate mitigation.
Obviously you think that it is, but I think most people value transparency and accountability. The elephant in the room here is that anonymity would hypothetically allow service members to act with impunity.
I'm sure you can see the risks in having service members escort detainees with no accountability for their actions.
Not wearing nametapes has been a thing for decades, long before Trump was president.
I think the main problem people are having is that they are being used to enforce domestic policy within the United States, which is not normal at all and is arguably illegal.
Ok so you obviously don't know what you're talking about. There are a lot of people in OPs image but only 4 are Air Force personnel, see if you can spot them.
That would probably be a lot easier if they didn't remove all of their patches. Huh...
Not really considering they're wearing multicams.
Oh right, I forgot that if you are in the Air Force, that is the only possible way you can dress at all times. Never does anyone in the Air Force ever wear anything other than that.
What does the percent of people in the picture being in the service have to do with anything......? We're talking about federal military members being ordered by the executive to enforce domestic policy, which is illegal.
Are you purposely being obtuse, or are you really this dumb?
And yes, I can spot the Air Force personnel..... I've spent 18 years living on AFB all over the country and abroad, my dad was a SMSgt.
The Air Force is not enforcing domestic policy here. If you see Airman out on the streets arresting people then you'd have a point. That's why I mentioned the 6 agents. The USAF is providing logistical support (yes they bring their own security too, the 4 in multicams).
If you disagree please look it up yourself.
I don't think you have any kind of authority to really substantiate that particular semantic dispute.
I'm sure we'll probably see it brought before a court at some point, but I would argue that if the policy isn't possible to execute without the logistical support of the military then the military is crucial to the enforcement of the policy.
What is brownshirt?
Courtmarshall is probably not what you want in this. That's specific to the UCMJ, which would discipline them for NOT removing identifiers. You probably want them to go through civilian courts if that's your goal. Which probably means you're thankful for Trump's push for increased executions.
Wow, shocker.
What is a brownshirt?
The SA/brownshirts were the "thugs" of Hitler's Nazi military. The brutes you see in movies busting into homes and shoving people around. Known for being excessively violent and breaking rules/laws in their harassment/detainment/murdering of Jews. They also claimed to be "just following orders"
People like you are why we're repeating history
Brown shirts are essentially what ICE and the USAF is right now. Hitler's thugs that will hurt whoever he wants because they want to hurt people and they get a free pass to hurt "the right" people. They also his their identity "to protect the troops" from people who would do the right thing and confront serial murderers and abusers.
So congrats on ICE and the arguably most far reaching branch of the US military being drumpler's boot-deepthroating lackey henchmen.
In Germany there was a word for people "that were good people just following orders". Nazis & war criminals
I want them all tried at the Hague.
Thank you for sharing your perspective and informing us that cowardly evasion of accountability in the execution of inhumane operations is a common practice in the service. Some folks out there might not have suspected this already.
They always have another option: walk away.
That is literally not an option for a very large majority of these service members. That'll be an Article 15 for sure, maybe a courtmartial.
Yes, the people made to assist the Nazis in the 1930s/40s had to make some tough decisions too.
Taking an Article 15 or court-martial instead of participating in massive civil rights violations not only absolutely is an option, but it's the only ethical one!
They executed Nazis who were "just following orders."
Rightfully so.
No, they executed Nazis for operating death camps.
They did not execute for "just following orders", aka Nuremberg Defense.
As it turns out, soldiers in all militaries follow orders every day without being executed.
Unless you're going to explain how removing a unit patch and name tag, or transporting people to their country of origin is worthy of execution, I'm not sure that you have an argument.
Resigning ones commission is exactly the type of meaningful protest that is needed. Nazis soldiers got pay and retirement benefits as well but tough things are tough to do. It sorta cracks me up because you say literally not an option and then present the very literal options they have.
Unlikely. The military doesn't chase down people who are AWOL much anymore. I know two people who have been AWOL for 20 years now. And they aren't hiding much at all.
Seriously, what is a brownshirt?
The paramilitary arm of the Nazis, also known as SA, doing all the protection of events and members, harassment and killings of persecuted minorities and concurrent parties while it was not in power yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung
But the situation is different now because you're part of the official organization with the official power :/
That explains it, thank you!
Wouldn't it not be so different, since I'm not part of the official organization? Just tangential?
Yeah, you're actually closer to that initial situation, so the comparison is even more apt
It boggles my mind you are military adjacent and do not know this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung
I'm not very good with history. I know the broad strokes, but I've forgotten a lot of this kind of history. It hasn't been relevant in my line of work, so doesn't get easily remembered.
That link does explain the reference, though, thank you!
It's time to brush up, because clearly you're falling for the same shit
It could not possibly be more relevant in your line of work than it is right now.
Do you know what their line of work is, or are you saying it applies to everyone?
I'd say it is important to everyone, especially if you are American.
See the top comment.
Why would you post this comment multiple times instead of googling it? 🦭🦭🦭
No, its just to cover up crimes against humanity. Let's be real here, and yes, I was also an aircraft crewmember.
The best way to protect them is to not put them there in the first place, for a law enforcement operation.
They're just rounding up the dangerous Jews, I mean illegal immigrants. Everybody relax.
We're just trying to hide our identity while committing crimes acting on orders from the Criminal in Chief because all of our white robes and hoods turned pink due to a MAGA cap that somehow ended up in the wash.
Got it.
Fly Away Security Teams/Ravens haven't been wearing nametapes for decades, this is nothing new.
Gross.
Have I got some bad news for you.
You seem to have missed the whole thing.
to clarify you are saying this is is so a random airman’s kids aren’t targeted by the cartels because they flew some cartel members back?
That's the general idea, yes.
That makes sense
I get what you're saying, if this was a hollywood "Carry-on" kinda movies. But, something doesn't pass the smell test.
Why would a gang target a service member performing a deportation flight to another country? What benefit could they receive from being exposed going after a private who's just guard duty on a plane? If it's just a, "there's no benefit, they're just evil and target people for fun" I would need some actual evidence of something like this being done and the procedures put into place after to just trust any ol' internet stranger proclaiming subject knowledge.
The practice originates from prisoner movement during our global war on terror. It was due to concern over domestic operatives targeting armed forces members, which is not new. The linked story is an example of this being used to instill fear.
While I don't think this equates at all for simple deportation flights, this seems to be the underlying justification for the above tactic, be it to prevent retaliation or "making an example" to scare away further attempts at deportation.
Again, I didn't think this concern is nearly as founded as it was during global war on terrorism, but this is what I think is the justification.
Oh, I was hoping more for an article or a statement made by a person of authority that was saying "The procedure was done according to this report by our intelligence officials and thus we conduct ourselves this way" kinda link. I mean what you're saying sounds plausible but that link from 2015 even says it was just social media kinda data if anything was actually real to begin with (nobody would confirm the validity, etc). I could see them using the scare tactics, just would like to see someone actually stating what the situation is.
Yeah, I was trying to find something like that to back up my point. Article, AFI, SecDec report, Pentagon statement, etc, but couldn't find anything. There's someone else in the thread who posted some pictures of these teams without nametapes, but that's not much stronger evidence than my word.
Every individual has the power to make a decision even if that decision would exit them from the situation. Maybe more people should stand up to authoritarians
This is what they say about riot police in oppressive regimes, about prison personnel, about people from special agencies doing surveillance and even arrests.
I think you can see where I'm going. Removing identification is more harmful than the threat to "the military member and their family".
What’s your favorite film? Starship Troopers? Go back to reddit.stormfront.
I get what you mean but Starship Troopers is a critique of war and militarized states.
My sibling in Kristallnacht, a militarized/police state is exactly what this is. This is war turned inward. This is what fascism looks like. This is fascism.
They’re starting with (mostly non-European) immigrants and trans people, and so on.
The Independent: Trump State Department official has repeatedly called for mass sterilization of ‘low-IQ trash’
We might be talking about different things. I’m just saying that Starship Troopers is an anti-war film and most of the people who like it are fairly liberal.
Yes. My point was that the type of people who think it’s reasonable for troops to hide their identities are the same people for whom Verhoeven’s satirical fascism goes over their heads.
Ah. Now I understand. I think those people prefer more naked propaganda like “American Sniper” though.
Doesn't seem like it, but OK. It's not a big deal.
Hell or High Water. Fantastic utilization of visuals combined with smooth and enjoyable music. Love the whole trilogy, but this is my favorite of them.
How do you speak with the whole boot on your tongue?