Justice should be equal
cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/50439521
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/33851469
1453
Comments117cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/50439521
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/33851469
Because it's about sending a message. They've seen how popular this guy and his actions have become and are trying to throw everything at him so it puts off any copycats.
True, hopefully it will backfire.
Death penalty increases violence because murdering the person catching you becomes a way to increase your likelihood of surviving.
So basically, killing Luigi would not make copycats less likely, but it WOULD make it more likely for copycats to shoot CEOs AND cops?
Hmm.. The killing of Luigi itself would be awful, of course, but the consequences of it sound like a win to me 🤔
[oh no... Anyway. PNG]
No, the death penalty increasing violence is about incentives.
If I shoot someone dead and you are the only witness, I have a choice to make. If I do not want to be executed, killing you is the best chance for escaping punishment.
The more severe the punishment the more desperate one will become to avoid it.
Death penalty backfires because it demonstrates fear for what this person keeps saying.
That would make him a martyr. I’m thinking the plan is to lock him up in max for life, then control the media narrative whenever his name comes up again.
Everyone who saw how this thing went down gonna have to spend their lives correcting false narratives they will weave.
We didn't do know for snowden, public opinion got split altht funny enough it seems people have came around on Snowden.
Either way, luigi did not do anything wrong
Haven't seen any copycats yet.
Plans take time. Better wait a few weeks until the CEOs start to relax again
Except all they have done is make him a martyr, and now anyone who wants to be infamous is more likely to do something.
The death penalty has not been executed in NY/federal court for decades right? Doesn’t seem like an actual threat. What they want to achieve is a good negotiating position for a plea bargain because they known a trial will be a shitshow.
The state of New York is about to get a firsthand lesson in the Streisand Effect. They should have just charged him the same charge any normal killer would get - Second Degree Murder, which is the normal charge for premeditated murder in NY. First degree requires rare special circumstances, and the prosecutor chose to use a dubious "terrorism" modifier to up the charge to Murder 1. They just couldn't help themselves, and they shot themselves in the foot.
The advantage to the prosecution to a simple Murder 2 charge is that motive really doesn't matter much. They just have to prove that Luigi pulled the trigger. But with the terrorism modifier, the trial will no devolve into lengthy discussions about his motives and message. Not only have they now given him the world's largest soapbox, but this will also give the defense an opportunity to make him much more sympathetic to the jury. With only a Murder 2 charge, the defense lawyer would have had to fight hard to sneak subtle hints into trial about Luigi's motives. Now his motives will be a core part of the prosecution's case.
With a simple Murder 2 trial, even jurors who thought Thompson got what he deserved could vote to convict based simply on the letter of the law. Luigi killed an evil man, but he still has to face the consequences like any other criminal. Now the jury will clearly see that the system isn't treating him like any other criminal. The prosecutors, through their own actions, are making Luigi's case for him - the justice system is completely rigged in favor of the rich and powerful, and the only way they can ever be held accountable is through violence.
All it takes is one juror of twelve to look around at the situation and say, "this is bullshit. I'm not going to convict." Sure, they can try him again with a new jury if he's not found unanimously not-guilty, but that jury will have an even greater risk of jury nullification. The longer this goes on, the more likely the prosecutor just has to offer him some sweetheart plea deal just to get him convicted of something. And each trial just elevates Mangione that much closer to literal Sainthood in the popular imagination.
Yeah, first degree requires a deep look into the motives, which is really good for him.
Here's some legal analysis by legal eagle https://youtu.be/vXkH-G_8xew
Except in every step things can develop the ways you haven't thought about.
And courtroom shows are kinda common enough in movies and even in reality. People will have strong feelings, but this doesn't seem a major thing for many.
So - too much copium. I hope you are right and I am wrong, of course.
I, too, watched Legal Eagle's video.
My personal tinfoil hat is that they are seeking the death penalty so he accepts a deal. They are scared of jury nullification.
That isn't tinfoil-hat at all. I was reading a news story recently about how worried they are that they'll have trouble finding impartial jurors, since there's so much sympathy for him.
How exactly does this work? How do they determine someone to be impartial? If they weed out people for having sympathy but keep people who don't, aren't they making that jury partial to finding him guilty?
That's the quiet part out loud. They want a jury that will convict him.
The jury is supposed to be unbiased, i.e. not favoring one side or the other. Obviously, it's impossible to get a jury that's completely impartial, especially in a case that's as high-profile as this one, but they have to try.
They ask the jurors questions and then each side has the opportunity to remove ones that they deem problematic.
That's normal though. I mean it shouldn't be, but they always go as hard as they can hoping you'll plead guilty to avoid a trial. When they say the death penalty is meant to dissuade criminals, they know it doesn't work on crimes. It works on getting guilty pleas.
They haven't said they are seeking the death penalty. They have charged him with a crime where they could seek it.
But I agree they're pushing for a deal.
They really gonna try to turn this guy into a martyr?
Then we need to make him a saint.
St. Luigi of Baltimore, forgive us our debts, deliver us from the greed of the wicked...
And shepherds we shall be.
For Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand.
That our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
So we shall flow a river forth to Thee.
And teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In Nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritus Sancti."
Looks like it.
Adding "Mangione gets a shrine" to my 2025 bingo
That.doesnt work out historically for them.
They spent last 25 years deploying infrastructure for oppression because peasants have nothing to hide.
I bet owner class is looking to test how good it is.
The media blitz early is a fail but they got a lot of other tools.
Did you see the drones bros!?
Omg bro UFOs omg dont pay attention to dead CEO bro, trust me bro.
Actually I missed the drone stuff. I was working a lot.
I kind of think they don’t know what to do about this.
It doesn’t seem smart for them to make him a martyr. Doesn’t seem smart to Epstein him.
I’ve been thinking for a few years now that, since no one with power ever seems to know what they’re doing, there’s something about power itself that makes the person who holds it selfish and incompetent.
They failed above their own Peter Principle limit.
Who are "they"?
Read the picture's caption and tell me if any of the nouns used can be context for "they", please.
MILDLY infuriating??!?
The [email protected] community seemed dead so I posted it here instead.
To put it mildly. 😋
The comparison is definitely stupid because this guy planned the whole thing! Its not like he accidentally started a rebellion in an accidentally treasonous way while trying to steal the office of a high government official. Everyone knows the punishment for that is ...another 4 years of government.
I might be confused by your comment and not understanding it properly so excuse me if I'm just not understanding right.
Are you saying that all the school shooters in America did not actively plan to kill all of those children and/or teenagers?
School shooters took a gun to a school and started open firing on children who were no threat and never even had a chance to grow up and hurt anyone.
This guy planned it out, killing one adult who was responsible for the deaths of a lot of fellow Americans while he got richer and richer from their suffering and deaths.
He was ironicly making a comparison with Trump, convicted of serious crimes but still being elected president
I believe the term you are looking for is a type of ruzzian chasm. A casm from the czar himself. Some would come to call it czarcasm but it wouldn't be until 1927 when a group of Mexican explorers traveling past the Rio grand to visit their cousins in California.... Nevermind the story, I was being sarcastic.
Got it 🫡
I do believe it would be a tactical error on their part to give him the death penalty... make a real martyr
Yeah, killing him seems like the best way to get riots all over the country...
Hahaha yah right. If they kill him there we'll be massive bitching online and that's about it.
I had the same thought. Us North Americans are not used to sacrificing ourselves for the betterment of the future generations.
An interesting factoid. In Finnish language "väkivalta" means violence. It is a combination word:
väki = people, crowd, folk
valta = power, reign
So... in Finland "democracy" and "violence" are the same thing? xD
Väki also means (or at least used to) 'power' or 'strong' (väkivahva, väkijuoma...) and that's also where the etymology for 'väkivalta' comes from. So it's got nothing to do with people.
This is true.
Valta also sounds like a Germanic loan just a second... yep. Same root as German "Gewalt", violence, "walten", to rule, preside, "verwalten", to administer, also English wield.
What's it with Finnish. One third borrowed from Estonian, another third from the Swedes, the rest from the Sami.
Yes. We are a mushroom people that suddenly popped in to existence and had to borrow some stuff.
Good luck finding a jury to convict him of jaywalking.
Some homicides are self defence.
We're in a pretty nice bubble here on Lemmy and the fediverse. There's a LOT of bootlickers who happily want him convicted
Vigilante justice only feels nice when you agree with the Vigilante. The curse of internet bubbles is that people feel like everyone agrees. Bubbles build extreme values and a lack of understanding of other peoples values.
You become right. Others become bootlickers.
Or... killing people is wrong, even shitty people.
Or actually lots and lots of reasons. In a nuanced world filled with billions of people, there are very different viewpoints.
opposing world views fighting
Imagine thinking there should be consequences for assassins.
Sometimes the consequence for doing a good thing is that people like that you did a good thing, legality be damned.
For that very reason... He will never see a jury. This will be decided by ONE judge...
Who has already written his poinion
6th amendment guarantees the right to a jury trial. The only way he doesn't see a jury is if he waives that right.
He spoke the truth but most of us were too young to understand but how did boomers miss these money shots.
They were the audience
Haha funny man is funny. Ooo my 401k is growing, line go up. What's on TV?
Not that it would have made a difference but as far as I know there was no call to action from Carlin. Without that many people just say yup, that's life, and keep their head down.
"because their lives don't matter as much as CEOs"
This is the defining moment. This is our future
US citizens, are you planning to protest?
We have the Russian "and then it got worse" do nothing attitude. We aren't even gonna try to do anything till its far too late.
Protests within US are limited to major cities otherwise logistics are fucked due to suburb lay out of the most of the country.
Also, most of are just too docile, it ain't an issue I til they personally get fucked.
That’s their point: America never does anything. People love to act like they stand for something, but cower at the slightest consequence or inconvenience.
Last time we had a major protest in the city of Chicago, 24 people died. That's a little more than "the slightest consequence or inconvenience"
Luigi's protest was way more efficient. Only one person has died.
And the weirdly most people under 40 are in clear alignment for weeks now lol
Yes but they need all those guns if the government oversteps. Well corporations have overstepped and been stealing our money for decades and nothing happens. By dteeling I mean our wages are stagnent but c suite have increased immensely.
We would, but most of us are too unhealthy from lack of access to affordable healthcare and can lose our jobs if we try to take time off work.
Tinfoil hat time. Our government fucking hates our asses. Lower class? Get shot, die from preventable diseases, whatever, just do it quietly so it doesn't bother the wealthy while they grease each other's palms.
When we have protests large enough to get noticed, we get attacked by the police. Why should the protesters have to suffer? Make the oppressors suffer instead.
How
This is a dumb take. Since 2005 you cannot use capital punishment for minors see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roper_v._Simmons
Most school shooters are under 18, Luigi is 26.
Shouldn't there be leniency for killing a killer?
Yes I know it's about "sending a message", but messages go both ways.
In this case, I wouldn't even call Luigi a killer. He's a hero, if any.
When the killing is in self defense or in the defense of many, many victims, is this called justifiable homicide?
And now that Republicans are set to have the Presidency, Congress and SCOTUS all at the same time, there doesn't seem to be any barriers left.
Abolish capital punishment!
New York doesn't have the death penalty though?
The feds also indicted him. There's zero chance a Trump AG isn't going to be pushing for the death penalty. What they cannot seem to understand is that this will only make him a martyr. They should have just given him the standard NY Murder II conviction any other killer would get, but they just couldn't help themselves. They had to really send a message to the proles.
All they will succeed in doing is elevating him to outright sainthood.
They did, just not what they expected?
Am I supposed to fear feds because I think Luigi if he did it, did nothing wrong?
Or I suppose to fear them if I am gonna dpa. Copycat... I am pretty sure that guy would want luigi treatment... Kill me goverment while the working class talking about the topic I brought to the national level discussion.
Also, I am not sure what's up with the pictures. But luigis body language is of a man who is in control.
They are the ones getting bent out of shape.
Single payer or bust. The working class will need to get this done either now or in 25 years.
He's askari getting federal charges. Those do.
Yes there are double standards but this is the wrong comparison to make that point.
Most school shooters are minors who are inelligible for the death penalty, and a large percentage don't survive their own shooting. Either death by cop or suicide.
I have no love for insurance CEOs or our capital-first justice system, but if you're gonna make a point don't leave it open to be so easily picked apart.
Of the adult school shooters, which is most of them anyway, try and find a handful.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/971544/number-k-12-school-shootings-us-age-shooter/
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/as-study-quick-reference-guide-updated1.pdf
Can I stay?
Maybe they should charge his parents too, like they did with some other school shooters. But wait, his parents are rich and the other ones lived in trailer parks.
He’s an adult. Parents get charged when they don’t properly secure their firearms from their minor child, which isn’t what is being alleged here. It’s not really comparable.
He is old enough to have to buy his own health insurance lol
This you shall offer in the morning and this you shall offer at twilight, a lamb without blemish.
I love bow this meme gets fact checked and the thesis get tighter.
Brian Thompson is a parasite, no empathy for them
Because most school shooters aren't adults.
Yeah, because the US "justice" system famously never treats juvenile defendants as adults in order to mete out draconian punishment that eliminates all chances for rehabilitation..
The US Supreme Court prevented people who committed crimes as juveniles from being executed a number of years ago. Trump’s group might change that, but for now it is the law. They technically cannot be incarcerated forever either.
And they have definitely ratified the UNCRC because they definitely do not want to put kids in adult prisons, right?
Also, most school shooters don't survive.
https://apnews.com/article/unitedhealthcare-ceo-killing-luigi-mangione-terrorism-law-7fcb28dcc0106c980b6ecf4aa9cf682f
That doesn't mean they can't be tried as terrorists. The main problem here is actually whether or not the facts of the crime actually allow for a terrorism charge. Fact is, he had a manifesto (see ideological goals), and the shooting was a violent criminal act.
According to the FBI that's all it takes. It may also be what is lacking in the case of some school shooters.
While I am generally on the side of "CEO FAFO", I recognize that the problem here is that the FBI and the laws they follow are flawed (probably deliberately) in such a way that they only target those who target the wealthy.
Shooting up a school is an act of terrorism if you do it because you're targeting a soft target in an attempt to hurt the local, state or federal government or you're religiously motivated etc. But not if you were bullied.
There's been plenty of over 18 mass shooters who also haven't been charged with terrorism. And with each one there's people who will say they don't want the US to become more of a police state because they believe that counterterrorism techniques (which we use internationally) shouldn't be used against the general population.
The federal government has a habit of overstepping the rights and freedoms of the general public any time they feel like they are under attack. We saw this with 9/11 and the Patriot act. So I can see their reasoning even if I don't agree that mass shooters should be considered terrorists under the law.
I mean Luigi barely counts.
Isn't he 26?
Exactly, so he's just now turning into his final adult sets of ideas and personality.
In the US an 18 year old is the same as a 26 or 56 year old under the law.
We're just going to ignore that school shooters are generally minors and thus not treated the same as adults? Okay then.
37 under 18 compared to 33 over 18. Close to a 50/50 split. Link
I wonder why executioners don't get doxxed.
What religion this mr. Mangione represented?
It's because he crossed state lines?
That’s how they’re justifying the federal charges, because he went from one state to the next, and he used the internet.
Doesn't make sense to compare a rate of an outcome (without even knowing how often that outcome was sought) with an individual attempt whose outcome is not even known yet.
When Mangione IS actually given the death penalty, this 'argument' will actually amount to something. Dumb until then.
FFS, it's not even him, people need to stop accepting he is the killer. He is not, news made sure that pics from the killing footage were buried so people would forgot them, because when you compare them with Luigi, its obviously NOT him... And there is no doubt here, killer is smaller, whiter (like Irish white), slim eyebrows, and less muscle body shape than Luigi.
Why do people try to make him a martyr, when it is not even the killer.
If he isn't the killer, why did he have the same gun as the killer and a notebook detailing who he was going to kill and how he was going to do it?
Because he is a patsy.
Blocked