Also "I'm so sick of this question" well then put the answer somewhere that's indexed by search engines. Siloing knowledge into discord is an awful idea.
No. Microsoft, the for-profit, publicly-traded, US-based megacorporation, controls that platform, who can use it, what can be put on it, what the ToS are. You can consider open options like Codeberg, et al. as at least you remove all the for-profit & social media trash, but if you want to be in control of your community, you almost have to self host & a self-hosted project should be viewed as more viable.
But only one step in the right direction. Releasing it from the clutches of one US corporation but trusting it in another isn’t quite good enough. For instance, say you upload the data as files in a Microsoft GitHub Git repository… well, you can’t use search without being autheniticated on that closed Git forge which will require an account & ToS agreements just to search the reposotiry without downloading it & for similar reasons search indexing won’t be good either.
Does Discord now offer the ability to save/fav comments to find them again? When I used it the last time, i was amazed how everything just scrolls by without a possibility to hold on to something.
Since being forced to use this terrible communication method in my teams and groups, I’ve been copy-and-pasting good Q&A threads into text files that I push to an enterprise GitHub repo for perma-store. At least that way other engineers and myself can either use GitHub’s search or clone the repo locally, grep it, and even contribute back with PRs. Sometimes from there, turn into a wiki, but that’s pretty rare. My approach is horribly inefficient and so much stuff is still lost, but it’s better than Discord’s search or dealing with Confluence.
At my job we bought an entire different product (glean) and are paying them a ton of money every month just because they can search our confluence wiki effectively lol
How is that the same than a favorite? I can also use a searchengine to find a website, but a bookmark is sometimes better. I can also search through all tweets on twitter, but having some marked as favorites come in handy sometimes. I use favorites and save lists in youtube quite a lot. Even though I could use the yt search bar each time.
I fucking hate Discord. It's a walled garden. You need an account to see the content and you can't google shit. It might be great for real time communication, but I can't grasp how its usage has evolved beyond any of that.
Lexical (rich text editor by Facebook) recently "migrated" their Github discussions to Discord... I have a question that I can see was asked on the discussion, as it appears in my search results on DDG, but I get a 404 when I try to open it. The fuckers deleted the discussions!
Of course, Discord only has poor-quality answers to that questions as it gets asked every week and maybe gets answered in a different way every time. Quality of discussion is much lower.
This is a very Facebook-like thing to do. They are openly hostile towards everyone, including their users and advertisers. Shit stain of a company that constantly makes the worst decisions.
It's because a traditional forum has to be hosted by the project maintainer and then appeal to users enough for them to create an account there.
Compare that to Discord. Most users already have a Discord account and it's relatively easy to set up a server on there. Plus it happens to be the communication tool for young people.
The problem is discoverability. And that's where I don't get why anyone in their right mind would use Discord for stuff like that.
Say, you have Github, a forum or even a subreddit for your project.
Somebody asks a question, you answer it.
Somebody else has the same question. Either they are intelligent enough to find it themselves or they ask and you just link your old answer. Done.
On Discord, it's basically impossible to find an answer that is more than two screens full of posts ago. So you have to keep answering the very same questions all the time.
That's the exact point. It's not only that you can't google shit, even within Discord itself it's incredibly hard to find the relevant information. BTW, did I already say that I fucking hate Discord?
I love discord... For my group of friends and communicating with other developers (internal project communication, not user communication.) It's ass for literally everything else.
It's also an issue with Reddit/Lemmy though, there's a good reason why old forums have long, in depth discussions and all alternatives don't, people have to keep recreating discussions on subjects because they don't get bumped to the top even if they're popular.
Which might be seen as a positive by some people (not me).
It encourages social interaction. Every answered question becomes a valid option to ask again just a short time later. And to answer again.
It also takes the burden to search from those who have questions. Just keep the chat flowing.
Maybe it's a bit like asking people on the street for directions, instead of using your phone. Less efficient and accurate, but you might get a smile in the process.
They still require accounts with US-based megacorporation (with obligations to say, ban access to Syrians civilians due to sanctions). If your project can do better, it should.
So much yesss, that drives me nuts, regardless of age!
I know that it's just hip and familiar to many, so I put with it with the few projects I'm really interested in and I can't say it doesn't work well, but please, why are there SO MANY??
That's a very interesting observation, I have to admit that even I sometimes am too lazy to read documentation from top to bottom and prefer asking a question to someone that already knows. Though I think it can also be attributed to how good a certain text is structured, quality of documentation should account not only for completeness, but also for laying out the information to be easy to parse and highlight the most important parts, which is maybe why I feel "documentation fatigue" in some cases
For open source, I almost always found IRC was a black hole of information. All kinds of developers discussing things that never made it to search engines. It's a long tradition.
And then some uppity moderator of some Discord channel for a niche mod for some game gets pissed at users for asking the same question repeatedly, when it's not obvious at all from any non-Discord source.
I could see the paradigm shifting over the years on reddit. They don't approach the internet as a knowledge base but a personal assistant chat. That's when I knew the value of the site was on the down swing.
This year has been dramatic. I've seen a big increase of users with quality content doing deletes in protest of Reddit. And the shift to sites like Lemmy that are not as favored by search engines.
Reddit should have gone the other direction, become a non-profit, eliminate advertising, go back to open sourcing the code like they used to, and run on donations. Cut their staff of people that had anything to do with advertising and trying to market the platform.
Questions that were previously asked (repeatedly) would either be downvoted or answered with a link to an earlier question with answers.
The latter is the case for Askhistorians. r/fitness has an extensive wiki, which answered basic and more advanced questions, and a daily "simple questions thread". Lots of answers in that thread are basically links to the wiki.
It requires a lot of moderation (most of the threads/answers were deleted very quickly in those subs), but it made it into some of the most qualitive subs out there.
It is to be expected though for certain topics where most questions have been asked and answered by now (history, older games,...). You might come up with an interesting question, but most likely, someone else has come up with it before you.
But many people are bad at searching (or are lazy or narcissits) so post it anyway. It's low effort for them, but very annoying for people that have been part of the community for a while. So many subs where moderation was not as strict will suffer from this.
Given how much worse searching things on the fediverse is, we might see the same issues here in time.
I recently built a 3D printer where the entire community for it lives on Discord. Their website instructions are horrifically out of date because all of the current changes have been discussed at some point on Discord. What should have been a 2-4 day project turned into a 2-3 week project due to the garbage involved in trying to strain information out of a massive multi-channel group chat with terrible search.
Why would any sane developer want to use this system to "document" their project? Written docs have worked well for a million years and there's no need to change them.
StackExchange bad! Those elitist pieces of shit closed my question I did 0 research for and they were not nice.. Imma go and ask the same question on The_Next_Place, where there's still someone who hasn't gone mad answering it for the thousandth time.
Yeah, StackExchange solved this problem. Concrete example, moving from ubuntuforums.org to AskUbuntu.com was a life changer. The time to find correct solutions dropped through the floor.
Sounds like my situation. Running a program, it has an error and crashes. Support page says ask in discord. I do. Crickets. I ask again a day later. I get told off bc I asked once already and the devs know. I ask how I'm supposed to know that since literally no one replied to me. I was further chastised that I should know that they know. I gave up.
I mean, it's not wrong? Discord is still primarily a gaming app built as a replacement for TeamSpeak and Ventrilo. The non-gaming use cases are still in the minority.
It's still a shit ruling. Back in the day they just blocked all .io sites so you couldn't play agar.io and so on. But all the IT sites we used were also blocked by that. So we had to go and ask the guy for every single one until he grew sick of it and opened it again
I just tried asking a question yesterday, and realized there's basically no way to save / bookmark / whatever a specific thing... it's seriously just a fucking chat room.
One wouldn't be too wrong to point at similarities between cancer and Discord in how it quickly takes over different systems (e.g. issue tracking, discussions, Q&A, documentation) and replaces them with a single non-functional thing (chat).
But, to play the devil's advocate, Discord seems to have some kind of a forum functionality, however I've never encountered those Forum Channels myself.
I think it can be useful for complex questions, but in my experience most of these discord servers are full of people asking very basic questions and very jaded people giving incredibly rude and cynical answers
True, that would make it better to find the answer. My experience with traditional forums though is that I have to sign up to a brand new website and make a post only to not get a response, and because it's a brand new site I have to keep checking it for a response every day.
It's admittedly quite good at what it was originally supposed to be: a voice chat service for playing games that's easy to join, use, and share. The troubles began when they started trying to pivot to be a general-purpose public internet space provider, because the platform was never supposed to be that and they've done absolutely nothing to support it.
Also, putting documentation in a format that has way too many features so just reading docs takes up 40% of CPU usage. Yes ,fuck you for using gitbook, i hate it so fucking much
The phone number gatekeeping is annoying. I think ChatGPT requires it. I can’t use it because it won’t accept my phone number as I only use VoIP numbers. Never mind they used to be land and cell numbers I posted there. Same with some banking sites. No sms 2FA allowed because the gateway they use can’t jump to voip - the codes just never arrive.
Imo the discord works quite well. For mods the github repo us great and for most questions a diacord is enough. I like the fact that i can quickly share stuff and get answers. Forums always felt very clunky to me. I can use them, but the culture us often a bit shit, and then there are those that need registration to view posts or pictures. While those problems also apply to discord, i dont need a ton of accounts, i can somply join a server.
I'm usually on the documenting side of things. If something like this starts unfolding, I produce text or HTML files anyway, they go on github/lab/whatever, and I wash my hands of what happens next.
In the end I write documentation mostly for myself. When the company can't figure things out over Discord or whatever ephemeral chat interface they use, I get called anyway.
I do extensive in-code documentation. The compiler discards all comments so I don't worry about commenting my code. Source code is for humans to understand and write anyways.
The only real alternatives to Discord is Matrix and Revolt. I am on both and there are a good number of people on there but they aren't too active. Wish they would be more popular and widely used
I don't think GitHub is social enough or the right tool to address bugs, talk about issues, or completely missing - ask for expertise. It's not even democratic enough and done in such a way that makes what to work on clear at times.
Some code is still more art than work or science but still there is a notion that maybe if there was a better tool than GitHub there would be no need for a discord.
Also "I'm so sick of this question" well then put the answer somewhere that's indexed by search engines. Siloing knowledge into discord is an awful idea.
There was a man at CERN once who was sick of questions. His name was Tim-Berners Lee.
But then there was also a man who was sick of internet search engines finding actual information. His name was Jason Citron.
I hate the amount of software that is gated behind a Discord server.
No, I don't want to join your garbage Discord server just to use your software. Just host it somewhere else.
Yeah I can't stand that shit. Just put it on GitHub
No. Microsoft, the for-profit, publicly-traded, US-based megacorporation, controls that platform, who can use it, what can be put on it, what the ToS are. You can consider open options like Codeberg, et al. as at least you remove all the for-profit & social media trash, but if you want to be in control of your community, you almost have to self host & a self-hosted project should be viewed as more viable.
Put it somewhere reliable that can easily be copied and indexed
That's basically what I was getting at.
In the C&C community, all the old fan sites and forums died, and all the knowledge is hidden in discord servers that are terrible to search.
But only one step in the right direction. Releasing it from the clutches of one US corporation but trusting it in another isn’t quite good enough. For instance, say you upload the data as files in a Microsoft GitHub Git repository… well, you can’t use search without being autheniticated on that closed Git forge which will require an account & ToS agreements just to search the reposotiry without downloading it & for similar reasons search indexing won’t be good either.
Yes! Discord is such a black holes for good knowledge, it's a crime
Does Discord now offer the ability to save/fav comments to find them again? When I used it the last time, i was amazed how everything just scrolls by without a possibility to hold on to something.
Since being forced to use this terrible communication method in my teams and groups, I’ve been copy-and-pasting good Q&A threads into text files that I push to an enterprise GitHub repo for perma-store. At least that way other engineers and myself can either use GitHub’s search or clone the repo locally, grep it, and even contribute back with PRs. Sometimes from there, turn into a wiki, but that’s pretty rare. My approach is horribly inefficient and so much stuff is still lost, but it’s better than Discord’s search or dealing with Confluence.
At my job we bought an entire different product (glean) and are paying them a ton of money every month just because they can search our confluence wiki effectively lol
Thank you for your service 🙏🙏
Hear hear!
I too find my garbage heap notes file checked into GitHub to be better than confluence.
But I hate confluence so much I should probably bring it up at therapy sometime...
What’s wrong with Confluence? (Other than being separate from the codebase)
You can search through the whole history of a channel
How is that the same than a favorite? I can also use a searchengine to find a website, but a bookmark is sometimes better. I can also search through all tweets on twitter, but having some marked as favorites come in handy sometimes. I use favorites and save lists in youtube quite a lot. Even though I could use the yt search bar each time.
Got this issue with the Voron 3d printer project. They claim RepRap open source heritage but then hide most of the discussion behind discord's doors.
I fucking hate Discord. It's a walled garden. You need an account to see the content and you can't google shit. It might be great for real time communication, but I can't grasp how its usage has evolved beyond any of that.
Lexical (rich text editor by Facebook) recently "migrated" their Github discussions to Discord... I have a question that I can see was asked on the discussion, as it appears in my search results on DDG, but I get a 404 when I try to open it. The fuckers deleted the discussions!
Of course, Discord only has poor-quality answers to that questions as it gets asked every week and maybe gets answered in a different way every time. Quality of discussion is much lower.
This is a very Facebook-like thing to do. They are openly hostile towards everyone, including their users and advertisers. Shit stain of a company that constantly makes the worst decisions.
I fucking love Discord and use it for as much communication as possible...
...but I also agree with everything you say here
All those reddit communities who migrated to Discord are in for a shock when they pull the exact same shit in a few years.
I use it, but it's basically "Free Ventrilo but not as shit." I have nothing of any value on it. It can be yoinked behind a paywall at any time.
It's because a traditional forum has to be hosted by the project maintainer and then appeal to users enough for them to create an account there.
Compare that to Discord. Most users already have a Discord account and it's relatively easy to set up a server on there. Plus it happens to be the communication tool for young people.
It makes sense, but it's sad nonetheless.
The problem is discoverability. And that's where I don't get why anyone in their right mind would use Discord for stuff like that.
Say, you have Github, a forum or even a subreddit for your project.
Somebody asks a question, you answer it.
Somebody else has the same question. Either they are intelligent enough to find it themselves or they ask and you just link your old answer. Done.
On Discord, it's basically impossible to find an answer that is more than two screens full of posts ago. So you have to keep answering the very same questions all the time.
That's the exact point. It's not only that you can't google shit, even within Discord itself it's incredibly hard to find the relevant information. BTW, did I already say that I fucking hate Discord?
I love discord... For my group of friends and communicating with other developers (internal project communication, not user communication.) It's ass for literally everything else.
I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't approve of Discord.
It's great for real time discussion. It's terrible for anything else.
It's IRC, not a forum.
Fuck Discord! They're named after an argument because their very existence is offensive.
It's also an issue with Reddit/Lemmy though, there's a good reason why old forums have long, in depth discussions and all alternatives don't, people have to keep recreating discussions on subjects because they don't get bumped to the top even if they're popular.
Which might be seen as a positive by some people (not me).
It encourages social interaction. Every answered question becomes a valid option to ask again just a short time later. And to answer again.
It also takes the burden to search from those who have questions. Just keep the chat flowing.
Maybe it's a bit like asking people on the street for directions, instead of using your phone. Less efficient and accurate, but you might get a smile in the process.
Or you might get a "Just use your phone, you idiot. I've been answering the same question all day."
This is at least what happens a lot on these discord channels...
I apparently am not most users.
No desire to use discord in the slightest honestly.
Subreddits and GitHub discussions exist and don't require accounts to view nor do they require hosting anything.
They still require accounts with US-based megacorporation (with obligations to say, ban access to Syrians civilians due to sanctions). If your project can do better, it should.
This comment is ancient wtf
Now that it has threads and features for communities I think it's pretty decent.
The search tool works pretty well that's usually what I use, or just check the pinned messages that links you to a GitHub or something with a FAQ
So much yesss, that drives me nuts, regardless of age!
I know that it's just hip and familiar to many, so I put with it with the few projects I'm really interested in and I can't say it doesn't work well, but please, why are there SO MANY??
That's a very interesting observation, I have to admit that even I sometimes am too lazy to read documentation from top to bottom and prefer asking a question to someone that already knows. Though I think it can also be attributed to how good a certain text is structured, quality of documentation should account not only for completeness, but also for laying out the information to be easy to parse and highlight the most important parts, which is maybe why I feel "documentation fatigue" in some cases
For open source, I almost always found IRC was a black hole of information. All kinds of developers discussing things that never made it to search engines. It's a long tradition.
Agreed. Trying to find answers for questions probably already asked on Discord is impossible.
And then some uppity moderator of some Discord channel for a niche mod for some game gets pissed at users for asking the same question repeatedly, when it's not obvious at all from any non-Discord source.
Looking at you, Our Summer Car -_-
I could see the paradigm shifting over the years on reddit. They don't approach the internet as a knowledge base but a personal assistant chat. That's when I knew the value of the site was on the down swing.
This year has been dramatic. I've seen a big increase of users with quality content doing deletes in protest of Reddit. And the shift to sites like Lemmy that are not as favored by search engines.
Reddit should have gone the other direction, become a non-profit, eliminate advertising, go back to open sourcing the code like they used to, and run on donations. Cut their staff of people that had anything to do with advertising and trying to market the platform.
The best subs weren't like this though.
Questions that were previously asked (repeatedly) would either be downvoted or answered with a link to an earlier question with answers.
The latter is the case for Askhistorians. r/fitness has an extensive wiki, which answered basic and more advanced questions, and a daily "simple questions thread". Lots of answers in that thread are basically links to the wiki.
It requires a lot of moderation (most of the threads/answers were deleted very quickly in those subs), but it made it into some of the most qualitive subs out there.
It is to be expected though for certain topics where most questions have been asked and answered by now (history, older games,...). You might come up with an interesting question, but most likely, someone else has come up with it before you.
But many people are bad at searching (or are lazy or narcissits) so post it anyway. It's low effort for them, but very annoying for people that have been part of the community for a while. So many subs where moderation was not as strict will suffer from this.
Given how much worse searching things on the fediverse is, we might see the same issues here in time.
I recently built a 3D printer where the entire community for it lives on Discord. Their website instructions are horrifically out of date because all of the current changes have been discussed at some point on Discord. What should have been a 2-4 day project turned into a 2-3 week project due to the garbage involved in trying to strain information out of a massive multi-channel group chat with terrible search.
It wastes everyone's time. The project maintainers have to keep answering the same questions, and the users don't have instant access to answers
Why would any sane developer want to use this system to "document" their project? Written docs have worked well for a million years and there's no need to change them.
You can even include them in your version control system and allow others to suggest changes
And you can include separate ones right there in the root folder where the script lives. README.md renders out beautifully on GitHub.
What 3d printer is this so I can avoid it?
I’m afraid they’re talking about the Voron printers, which are really great printers.
You're probably right, but I can think of a couple other 3d printing projects that have the same issue.
The instructions on the Web are pretty good, unless you start messing with Tons of mods, but thats your own fault.
Poor bastard. I feel you. 💐
Discord != Support
Discord != Archive
Discord != Issue tracker
Discord != Update news distribution platform
Kids these days:
Yeah, StackExchange solved this problem. Concrete example, moving from ubuntuforums.org to AskUbuntu.com was a life changer. The time to find correct solutions dropped through the floor.
Sounds like my situation. Running a program, it has an error and crashes. Support page says ask in discord. I do. Crickets. I ask again a day later. I get told off bc I asked once already and the devs know. I ask how I'm supposed to know that since literally no one replied to me. I was further chastised that I should know that they know. I gave up.
I'm 50 and I have a 23 year old "RTFM" t-shirt.
Requests to Discord are blocked by my company’s newest filters as “gaming”. 😶
I mean, it's not wrong? Discord is still primarily a gaming app built as a replacement for TeamSpeak and Ventrilo. The non-gaming use cases are still in the minority.
It's still a shit ruling. Back in the day they just blocked all .io sites so you couldn't play agar.io and so on. But all the IT sites we used were also blocked by that. So we had to go and ask the guy for every single one until he grew sick of it and opened it again
That's like not letting Muslims on a plane because some are terrorists. What a lazy approach.
That’s true, but we had a work server there for voice chat
Wow. I'd be self hosting mumble for that. Or using Teams.
Teams was crap at the time on our laptops.
I would’ve preferred a company wide IRC chat, but whatever.
Not wrong lol, it's a gamer chat. It tried to rebrand as a regular chat app, but the entire gamer aesthetic says otherwise.
Fuck Discord.
Seriously fuck discord
casually fuck discord too
I just tried asking a question yesterday, and realized there's basically no way to save / bookmark / whatever a specific thing... it's seriously just a fucking chat room.
Yeah it's literally just that. I still have no idea why it's used as some kind of database by so many
It's great for what it's intended for, a gaming voice/text chat server.
One wouldn't be too wrong to point at similarities between cancer and Discord in how it quickly takes over different systems (e.g. issue tracking, discussions, Q&A, documentation) and replaces them with a single non-functional thing (chat).
But, to play the devil's advocate, Discord seems to have some kind of a forum functionality, however I've never encountered those Forum Channels myself.
I’ve only seen it so far in the discord group for the city building game Cities: Skylines. And it’s still a mess.
I think it can be useful for complex questions, but in my experience most of these discord servers are full of people asking very basic questions and very jaded people giving incredibly rude and cynical answers
Very complex questions should be discussed on traditional forums.
True, that would make it better to find the answer. My experience with traditional forums though is that I have to sign up to a brand new website and make a post only to not get a response, and because it's a brand new site I have to keep checking it for a response every day.
This hits home. Discord is a terrible product I don’t know why anyone likes it.
It's admittedly quite good at what it was originally supposed to be: a voice chat service for playing games that's easy to join, use, and share. The troubles began when they started trying to pivot to be a general-purpose public internet space provider, because the platform was never supposed to be that and they've done absolutely nothing to support it.
Discord is great for what is is. It just shouldn't be used for anything other than some chat and some voice.
Also, putting documentation in a format that has way too many features so just reading docs takes up 40% of CPU usage. Yes ,fuck you for using gitbook, i hate it so fucking much
Pull requests welcome!!
RTFD, or something like that.
I think you mean RTFM. But in this case it's WTFM so I can RTFM.
Hate this so much, very much into 3d printing (voron right now) and huge parts of the community are on discord it's just an absolute pain to use
Annex engineering requires phone number verification to enter their discord. Fuck that.
The phone number gatekeeping is annoying. I think ChatGPT requires it. I can’t use it because it won’t accept my phone number as I only use VoIP numbers. Never mind they used to be land and cell numbers I posted there. Same with some banking sites. No sms 2FA allowed because the gateway they use can’t jump to voip - the codes just never arrive.
Imo the discord works quite well. For mods the github repo us great and for most questions a diacord is enough. I like the fact that i can quickly share stuff and get answers. Forums always felt very clunky to me. I can use them, but the culture us often a bit shit, and then there are those that need registration to view posts or pictures. While those problems also apply to discord, i dont need a ton of accounts, i can somply join a server.
I'm usually on the documenting side of things. If something like this starts unfolding, I produce text or HTML files anyway, they go on github/lab/whatever, and I wash my hands of what happens next.
In the end I write documentation mostly for myself. When the company can't figure things out over Discord or whatever ephemeral chat interface they use, I get called anyway.
> I produce text or HTML files anyway
I do extensive in-code documentation. The compiler discards all comments so I don't worry about commenting my code. Source code is for humans to understand and write anyways.
The only real alternatives to Discord is Matrix and Revolt. I am on both and there are a good number of people on there but they aren't too active. Wish they would be more popular and widely used
I think you're missing the point here. The solution to the "documentation on a chatroom" problem is not putting documentation on another chatroom.
To be fair, a discord comment from five years ago is still more helpful than Amazon AWS's actual documentation.
at least you can google Amazon’s wrong answer, there’s no way to Google a right answer that’s locked away in a Discord room …
I don't think GitHub is social enough or the right tool to address bugs, talk about issues, or completely missing - ask for expertise. It's not even democratic enough and done in such a way that makes what to work on clear at times.
Some code is still more art than work or science but still there is a notion that maybe if there was a better tool than GitHub there would be no need for a discord.