This is why it's important to remember that in any revolution, resistance, or targeted action, it's the police that are the first enemy. They'll be the ones that respond first, and will likely toe the line the most reliably.
The only problem is that we've been set up so that the people that are most likely to oppose the worst case scenario are the ones least likely to be both armed and willing to fight.
Just wait, though. If things slide the way they could, it won't be long before the party policy shifts against armed citizens.
Fortunately none of them died as far as I can find. Surgeons had to crack open the skull of the bystander they shot in the back of the head to relieve his brain swelling though. I hope he recovers because he's gonna be set for life.
They spent 150 million on overtime for cops to stop fare evasion. How much were they losing in fares? I'm gonna go ahead and guess it wasn't even a teeny fraction of that.
They spent 1500x more on enforcement than they could have ever recovered from fare evaders. Just like every single other monitoring and enforcement program for public services.
Has there ever been a single program like that which is actually a net positive? Fare enforcement, food stamps means testing, public services with drug screens, "welfare queen" check ups, means testing, etc. I'm not aware of a single instance where it wouldn't have been cheaper just to let a few people get benefits that "didn't deserve them" than putting these restrictions in place
But God's forbid we let poor people have nice things, or just to do good things for our society. Goddamned toxic puritanicalism. ..
Absolutely right. Brings to mind something I read a while ago which I will paraphrase.
"Liberals want everyone to get what they need even if a few cheat the system. Conservatives want nobody to get what they need if there's a chance anyone will cheat the system."
Somebody on Lemmy a while back asked about the phrase, "the cruelty is the point," and whether it was true and fair. Well, here's the evidence: The point is not a net gain on fare collections.
The fact that the numbers are public and they keep doing it proves it: The cruelty is the point.
I disagree, the poor would be worse off without public transit since else it'd be much harder for them to move around. In fact many if not most public transit systems are subsidized and operate at a loss.
The richer don't use it and so care little, beyond the macro level that it benefits businesses and such.
Public transit never turns a profit, not because it's bad business but simply down to the economics of providing affordable transit. In fact, fares recover such a small percentage of a public transit agency's budget that there's good arguments being made for making public transit fare free. Public transit is a net good for communities so making it as accessible to those who want or need it is important
I think you may have missed his point. He wasn't arguing against public transit, just the fare. It should be free. For the reasons you yourself mentioned.
Just what I wrote above. There aren't a lot of articles about it after the initial incident. Our media has the attention span of a frantic gnat with Level 11 ADHD so it's not surprising.
Don't worry there's plenty of blame to go around in this fucked up system we've got.
But I agree with you. No matter what this guy did, these cops engineered an unnecessary confrontation and then shot innocent bystanders, the suspect, AND themselves. They are to blame. They are not qualified to use firearms in the performance of their duties because they lack good judgement.
I read the advert and just assumed, the suspect just tried to ran and they needlessly used guns to stop them instead of running after them or something like that?!
The suspect is not 100% blameless, he did hop the line, he was not following lawful commands, and he was holding a knife. Now that is a really sketchy situation because a knife can kill you real quick, real life is not like Hollywood. But he did not try to stab anyone with it and he was not threatening anyone. Cops love to talk about how a knife can kill you from 20 feet but that ain't gonna happen when they have already drawn on him. So none of that validates their response. They could have easily backed up temporarily, called for backup, tried the tasers again, waited for him to calm down a bit, or 20 other things than unloading their guns in a crowded subway station. Idiotic. The ONLY reason they should have fired is if the suspect was attempting to harm someone. I hope they are fired and charged with negligence at the very least, attempted manslaughter sounds even better.
The sad thing is it wasn't even crowded. There were like 3 people in the immediate vicinity, not counting suspect and cops- and they managed to hit 2 of them.
It wasn't NYPD, it was transit police. Not too uncommon in big cities for the transit system to have their own (real) police force, it solves some problems of jurisdiction when the transit system spans multiple cities and/or counties.
The statement they did put out about the poster was basically
"The shooting was not over skipping fare. But everytime someone skips fair we loss money and people are in danger"
I'd say a bit of both. The numbers they showed for it if I remember was that they spent $150m to catch like $100,000 of fares that were skipped. Then throw in 4 people dead and you didn't do much to help. You just made it more miserable for people travelling.
With fares making up 23% of your income, and payroll taking up over 30% of expenses... Odds are they could cut the number of guards patrolling tolls, ticket sales people, customer service reps, maintenance workers for all the machines/guard terminals etc by a shit ton and make the transportation free, and offset the costs elsewhere. It would also likely boost the economy of the area, do to people not needing to scrape together a couple dollars to take the train and spending it at businesses they otherwise may normally avoid do to costs or not having that extra few dollars.
In Ontario, asshole political leader Doug Ford is trying to stop free public transit by paying for transit cops out of the provincial budget. That way no one can make the payment you just made. Can we have the same amount of money to spend on improving public transit? No. The only thing fearless leader Doug Ford fears more than free public transit is good public transit.
What a bag of dicks. Watch other conservative states and provinces follow his lead!
Yup that's what the average person never factors in. Roads are 100% subsidized, so other forms of transit have to compete in the market against a free product. It's really disturbing the process to get to an ideal efficient state.
I'm not sure libertarian saying we should pay for roads, I'm just saying if we took all the money spent on transit and transportation (including cost of cars, gas, insurance, roads etc...) and pooled it, and allocated it to see what we could get for that money? I think we'd be living in a futuristic city with a free tram/train within a 5min walk of every house in the city. Most people probably would not buy a car unless they routinely traveled to rural locations.
Alas, that kind of cost efficiency is only a dream at this point. Conservatives will keep on fighting to allow us to be nickel and dimed by corporations in the name of individual freedom.
"we should be free to choose the manner in which we're exploited by the rich"
Well, Iโll give you an update here as I have boots on the ground:
They cut back on the amount of cops on the platforms nowโbut now every single exit door has a private guard (one of those rent a cop companies). So now theyโre bringing privatized security into the mix. But there are still cops on the platforms! Just not as many at the door because theyโve hired some security guards to have the same effect an MTA person has, which means they canโt really do shit if you donโt let them stop you.
That's what I think when I see deadly high speed chases occuring, like unless the person is imminently trying to harm others could they maybe just wait for him to drive home and then make an arrest?
So keeping track of the suspect movement while also planning for actions based on gathered information? I doubt cops with 6 months training have the patience for something like that
The fare enforcement was of course a huge overreach and waste of resources, spending something absurd like 1000x what it recovered. The cops didn't shoot people over a fare, they shot because someone pulled a knife on them, after trying to use a Taser which failed. Not really sure what else people expect will result if someone pulls a knife on someone with a gun, cop or not.
thanks for posting the source. down-votes don't bother me. down-votes are supposed to be used if the comment has no addition or content to the topic being discussed, not because you don't like what someone is saying.
I watched the video. He wasn't rushing the cop, he was trying to get away, just didn't realize that the other cop had gotten around him. There's a noticeable moment when he suddenly recognizes that's a cop he was about to run past, his body language shows he was surprised.
Cops try a few times to use less lethal means, they step off the train, guy with knife sees the cop, then CHASES the cop with the knife in his hand. Stop lying.
Sees cop:
Begins chasing cop:
Top of my list of ways to get shot by police? Chase one with a knife in my hand.
I believe that public transportation should be free, especially for low income individuals. I don't fit that definition anymore, so I am happy to pay to help keep it funded.
In Dallas the light rail normally doesn't check but they're doing it more frequently now mainly to get homeless people off the trains, and they will make you get off if you don't have a ticket. The busses always check though.
Depends where you are. In Phoenix I've seen people get cited and escorted off the train. They're real cops, if you refuse to identify, they can arrest.
So it's OK to be violent if you're a petty criminal, as long as you're being arrested? So, you can't arrest people anymore?
You guys aren't even trying to make sense...
The poster doesn't even have any references. But, I'm fairly sure nobody is shooting anyone because they don't have a ticket. Unless you have actual references, I'm calling BS. The people got shot for another reason. They may have been getting arrested at the time, but that doesn't give them sovereignty over normal laws.
The reason this poster has no references, is because it is likely BS, and knows people like yourself will fall for it.
There is obviously much more to this story, if it is true at all.
So I'll fill you in since you're obviously out of the loop. The 4 people were shot in one incident. One guy skipped a fare, then refused to stop for police. He tried to get away. He had a knife. Cops tried to tase him, that didn't work. Cops got scared. Guy tried to run away, cops shot him, two bystanders, and one of the cops.
Yes, they're leaving out details to point out how ridiculous it is- but it is ridiculous. At no point was the guy enough of a threat to anyone to escalate to deadly force. They're transit cops, they have radios- they don't have to let him go, just take a second to tell the train crew to not leave the station, then wait him out.
This is why it's important to remember that in any revolution, resistance, or targeted action, it's the police that are the first enemy. They'll be the ones that respond first, and will likely toe the line the most reliably.
2nd Amendment is usually a punchline, but it may become necessary
Tbh, it always has been.
The only problem is that we've been set up so that the people that are most likely to oppose the worst case scenario are the ones least likely to be both armed and willing to fight.
Just wait, though. If things slide the way they could, it won't be long before the party policy shifts against armed citizens.
Why do you think your police has been militarized so hard over the past few decades ?
NY transit starts getting complaints about an ad they have no idea about.
"No, m'mam, we don't have a death penalty policy.....no......no m'man, I don't know what poster you saw....."
"but yes m'aam we did shoot and kill 4 human beings for cheating us out of the 2.90 fare"
Fortunately none of them died as far as I can find. Surgeons had to crack open the skull of the bystander they shot in the back of the head to relieve his brain swelling though. I hope he recovers because he's gonna be set for life.
They spent 150 million on overtime for cops to stop fare evasion. How much were they losing in fares? I'm gonna go ahead and guess it wasn't even a teeny fraction of that.
They spent 1500x more on enforcement than they could have ever recovered from fare evaders. Just like every single other monitoring and enforcement program for public services.
Has there ever been a single program like that which is actually a net positive? Fare enforcement, food stamps means testing, public services with drug screens, "welfare queen" check ups, means testing, etc. I'm not aware of a single instance where it wouldn't have been cheaper just to let a few people get benefits that "didn't deserve them" than putting these restrictions in place
But God's forbid we let poor people have nice things, or just to do good things for our society. Goddamned toxic puritanicalism. ..
Absolutely right. Brings to mind something I read a while ago which I will paraphrase.
"Liberals want everyone to get what they need even if a few cheat the system. Conservatives want nobody to get what they need if there's a chance anyone will cheat the system."
Somebody on Lemmy a while back asked about the phrase, "the cruelty is the point," and whether it was true and fair. Well, here's the evidence: The point is not a net gain on fare collections.
The fact that the numbers are public and they keep doing it proves it: The cruelty is the point.
public transit fares are a steeply regressive tax on the poor
I disagree, the poor would be worse off without public transit since else it'd be much harder for them to move around. In fact many if not most public transit systems are subsidized and operate at a loss.
The richer don't use it and so care little, beyond the macro level that it benefits businesses and such.
Public transit never turns a profit, not because it's bad business but simply down to the economics of providing affordable transit. In fact, fares recover such a small percentage of a public transit agency's budget that there's good arguments being made for making public transit fare free. Public transit is a net good for communities so making it as accessible to those who want or need it is important
I think you may have missed his point. He wasn't arguing against public transit, just the fare. It should be free. For the reasons you yourself mentioned.
That's why Seattle largely doesn't bother with fare enforcement and doesn't even have turnstiles. It's simply a waste of money and manpower.
What were you able to find out about the cases? ๐
Just what I wrote above. There aren't a lot of articles about it after the initial incident. Our media has the attention span of a frantic gnat with Level 11 ADHD so it's not surprising.
Yeah I know what you mean. Thanks for the extra context that you were able to glean though.
Lolololololol no
He will sue, the state will settle for 20mil and then quietly cancel the settlement payment after people move on from the story.
That's what they always do.
Well wait.....can the NY transit be blamed for that, if it was NYPD?
That would be like if some guy stole a loaf of bread from a grocery store, so they call the cops, and the cop shoots the theif.
Do you blame the grocery store?
The vast majority of people who steal food from a grocery aren't doing it out of malicious reasoning but simply for their and their families survival.
Using a systemic monopoly on violence to stop people from trying to non violently survive in a world that refuses to help them is always immoral.
We should be calling the cops on supermarket chains for hoarding and not sharing their exes of wealth with citizens who actually need it.
I think the word you were looking for was "excess." What you wrote seems like an oddly specific kink for divorcees.
Its a happy little accident.
Homer: You know, Mr. Burns, you're the richest guy I know. Way richer than Lenny.
Mr. Burns: Yes, but I'd trade it all for a little more
Don't worry there's plenty of blame to go around in this fucked up system we've got.
But I agree with you. No matter what this guy did, these cops engineered an unnecessary confrontation and then shot innocent bystanders, the suspect, AND themselves. They are to blame. They are not qualified to use firearms in the performance of their duties because they lack good judgement.
Wait.... they did WHAT?!
I read the advert and just assumed, the suspect just tried to ran and they needlessly used guns to stop them instead of running after them or something like that?!
The suspect is not 100% blameless, he did hop the line, he was not following lawful commands, and he was holding a knife. Now that is a really sketchy situation because a knife can kill you real quick, real life is not like Hollywood. But he did not try to stab anyone with it and he was not threatening anyone. Cops love to talk about how a knife can kill you from 20 feet but that ain't gonna happen when they have already drawn on him. So none of that validates their response. They could have easily backed up temporarily, called for backup, tried the tasers again, waited for him to calm down a bit, or 20 other things than unloading their guns in a crowded subway station. Idiotic. The ONLY reason they should have fired is if the suspect was attempting to harm someone. I hope they are fired and charged with negligence at the very least, attempted manslaughter sounds even better.
The sad thing is it wasn't even crowded. There were like 3 people in the immediate vicinity, not counting suspect and cops- and they managed to hit 2 of them.
Yes.
It wasn't NYPD, it was transit police. Not too uncommon in big cities for the transit system to have their own (real) police force, it solves some problems of jurisdiction when the transit system spans multiple cities and/or counties.
The fun part is of the 4 people shot, only the one had skipped the fare. Two were bystanders, one was another cop.
So only three people got shot.
The statement they did put out about the poster was basically
"The shooting was not over skipping fare. But everytime someone skips fair we loss money and people are in danger"
While I feel a little bad about the folks no doubt receiving those calls, this is so deliciously amusing to contemplate.
Reminds me of Brandalism
Here's an example!
You should post that to the Wikipedia community.
It's saying the quite part out loud about the normalized police state we live in.
I'd say a bit of both. The numbers they showed for it if I remember was that they spent $150m to catch like $100,000 of fares that were skipped. Then throw in 4 people dead and you didn't do much to help. You just made it more miserable for people travelling.
With fares making up 23% of your income, and payroll taking up over 30% of expenses... Odds are they could cut the number of guards patrolling tolls, ticket sales people, customer service reps, maintenance workers for all the machines/guard terminals etc by a shit ton and make the transportation free, and offset the costs elsewhere. It would also likely boost the economy of the area, do to people not needing to scrape together a couple dollars to take the train and spending it at businesses they otherwise may normally avoid do to costs or not having that extra few dollars.
In Ontario, asshole political leader Doug Ford is trying to stop free public transit by paying for transit cops out of the provincial budget. That way no one can make the payment you just made. Can we have the same amount of money to spend on improving public transit? No. The only thing fearless leader Doug Ford fears more than free public transit is good public transit.
What a bag of dicks. Watch other conservative states and provinces follow his lead!
https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/doug-ford-announces-money-for-cops-asylum-seekers-in-ottawa-no-new-transit-funds-1.7098980
Well he also fears bike lanes.
Conservatives are scared of EVERYTHING.!
Wait, where in Ontario has free transit? The topic of your article, Ottawa, charges for transit.
It was floated last election and has made the rounds a few times. This is a pre emptive attack.
Darn. Free or even just cheaper transit would be pretty cool and might increase ridership. I mean, roads are free to use, so why not transit as well?
Yup that's what the average person never factors in. Roads are 100% subsidized, so other forms of transit have to compete in the market against a free product. It's really disturbing the process to get to an ideal efficient state.
I'm not sure libertarian saying we should pay for roads, I'm just saying if we took all the money spent on transit and transportation (including cost of cars, gas, insurance, roads etc...) and pooled it, and allocated it to see what we could get for that money? I think we'd be living in a futuristic city with a free tram/train within a 5min walk of every house in the city. Most people probably would not buy a car unless they routinely traveled to rural locations.
Alas, that kind of cost efficiency is only a dream at this point. Conservatives will keep on fighting to allow us to be nickel and dimed by corporations in the name of individual freedom.
"we should be free to choose the manner in which we're exploited by the rich"
... Can we not be exploited by the rich?
"No that's socialism"
Well, Iโll give you an update here as I have boots on the ground:
They cut back on the amount of cops on the platforms nowโbut now every single exit door has a private guard (one of those rent a cop companies). So now theyโre bringing privatized security into the mix. But there are still cops on the platforms! Just not as many at the door because theyโve hired some security guards to have the same effect an MTA person has, which means they canโt really do shit if you donโt let them stop you.
So a slightly different way to waste money.
When shouting DefundThePolice/PoliceReform is seen as offensive, this is how you convince the people.
At this point it would be better usage of money to make it a surveillance state instead of a police state, cameras wonโt shoot you
It's also a surveillance state at this point.
That's what I think when I see deadly high speed chases occuring, like unless the person is imminently trying to harm others could they maybe just wait for him to drive home and then make an arrest?
So keeping track of the suspect movement while also planning for actions based on gathered information? I doubt cops with 6 months training have the patience for something like that
Please transcribe images of text for the blind
SKIP THE FARE? EXPECT THE DEATH PENALTY
On September 15th, the NYPD shot four people over the $2.90 fare
OMNY
So the NYPD can double tap and go
It says OMNY. It's a payment system for the subway
Thanks -- fixing
Adding descriptive text to all images is the cool thing to do.
No lie the dude in the reflection looks like my NYPD cousin.
The fare enforcement was of course a huge overreach and waste of resources, spending something absurd like 1000x what it recovered. The cops didn't shoot people over a fare, they shot because someone pulled a knife on them, after trying to use a Taser which failed. Not really sure what else people expect will result if someone pulls a knife on someone with a gun, cop or not.
@[email protected] hi
Hello, donโt forget to drink water
who put this poster up? the subway or a protest group?
It wasn't put up by the MTA. I have no idea why you're getting downvoted, and the person who responded to you with misinformation is getting upvoted.
https://www.newsweek.com/nyc-subway-fare-poster-warning-death-penalty-1989001
thanks for posting the source. down-votes don't bother me. down-votes are supposed to be used if the comment has no addition or content to the topic being discussed, not because you don't like what someone is saying.
The subway. The OMNY logo is on the bottom
It won't load for me on Voyager. Comment to check with sync and desktop.
Edit: doesn't load on sync either.
Does for me on sync
It finally loaded in Voyager when I read your comment.
Damn thatโs crazy. No mention of the guy rushing police with a knife when confronted and told to pay, screaming โshoot me shoot me shoot meโ.
alleged knife that magically disappeared
Seems you didnโt follow this story after the initial outrage.
[You can always depend on the kindness of strangers] (https://youtu.be/hvHPv1go75o)
Shh. You are disrupting the lemmy echochamber! Itโs all about the headlines and taglines. No facts
He didn't rush at the police. He simply had a knife. And that doesn't justify shooting into a crowd, and with piss poor aim.
I saw the video. Are you lying or just havenโt seen it?
I watched the video. He wasn't rushing the cop, he was trying to get away, just didn't realize that the other cop had gotten around him. There's a noticeable moment when he suddenly recognizes that's a cop he was about to run past, his body language shows he was surprised.
This is a crock of shit. Unless the guy's blind.
We can see him look at the officer who's wearing the cam. I'll even link the timestamp: https://youtu.be/-EaAraFPzEo?t=956
Cops try a few times to use less lethal means, they step off the train, guy with knife sees the cop, then CHASES the cop with the knife in his hand. Stop lying.
Sees cop:
Begins chasing cop:
Top of my list of ways to get shot by police? Chase one with a knife in my hand.
If it's a honor system that you don't obey, are we to conclude you are without honor? ^^
I pay for public tranposrtation because I like my bus drivers. should I have to? no, it should be 100% publicly funded. but it's not, so I do.
unless you look not white and/or housed enough to them
I believe that public transportation should be free, especially for low income individuals. I don't fit that definition anymore, so I am happy to pay to help keep it funded.
In Dallas the light rail normally doesn't check but they're doing it more frequently now mainly to get homeless people off the trains, and they will make you get off if you don't have a ticket. The busses always check though.
Depends where you are. In Phoenix I've seen people get cited and escorted off the train. They're real cops, if you refuse to identify, they can arrest.
I know what the person is trying to say.
But It's a bad look for them, as it comes across as them trying to suggest that stealing is ok.
Not everyone skipping fares can't afford it
Skipping a fare should not be punishable by death, I don't care how wealthy the skipper is.
But what if billionare skips?
That's not what happened here most likely. No references, no context
Chances are someone got aggressive or violent whilst being arrested due to ticket theft
There's a reason there is no real info here
Nobody is going to go and shoot someone because they see them jump over a barrier. Something else happened
Assuming you are correct, being aggressive or violent whilst being arrested for a $3 crime should be punishable by death?
Wtf?
So it's OK to be violent if you're a petty criminal, as long as you're being arrested? So, you can't arrest people anymore?
You guys aren't even trying to make sense...
The poster doesn't even have any references. But, I'm fairly sure nobody is shooting anyone because they don't have a ticket. Unless you have actual references, I'm calling BS. The people got shot for another reason. They may have been getting arrested at the time, but that doesn't give them sovereignty over normal laws.
The reason this poster has no references, is because it is likely BS, and knows people like yourself will fall for it.
There is obviously much more to this story, if it is true at all.
I think I know how Trump won now lol
So I'll fill you in since you're obviously out of the loop. The 4 people were shot in one incident. One guy skipped a fare, then refused to stop for police. He tried to get away. He had a knife. Cops tried to tase him, that didn't work. Cops got scared. Guy tried to run away, cops shot him, two bystanders, and one of the cops.
Yes, they're leaving out details to point out how ridiculous it is- but it is ridiculous. At no point was the guy enough of a threat to anyone to escalate to deadly force. They're transit cops, they have radios- they don't have to let him go, just take a second to tell the train crew to not leave the station, then wait him out.
You're right - the death penalty is absolutely deserved over $2.90 if they could afford it.
False equivalency
Neither are ok. And I'm not saying they are
In fact, Trumpians do this.
Trump will do 1000 shitty things. And he'll get his followers to focus on 1 thing
We don't even know the full context here.
Ok but now youre saying skipping the fare should be punished by death?
They should just go back to cutting hands off for theft /s
Lol
That's not what I said. False equivalency.
And there is no context here or anything. I doubt anyone got shot because of not paying for their ticket
They probably got aggressive or violent, and it just happened to be whilst they were being arrested.