Yes liberals aren't great and all. But this is sort of brain injury levels of dysfunction. A state level issue in a state where it's elected officials are attacking the citizens. And people whine about why the out of power largely unelected group isn't exercising more power? Because your mother f****** neighbors didn't put them in power. For all the problems liberals have. This is a voter problem. I'm not sure what they're hoping or expecting? New York or California to invade and set up a provisional government pending new elections?
I don't know that I would go quite that far. But if I had a dollar for every time I saw someone doing that. And then looking at their Post history to see them defending similar actions elsewhere. I would have a nice little nest egg.
There absolutely are genuine criticisms of capitalism. Unfortunately people often disingenuously make them. Especially leninists. If there's two groups who have no business criticizing each other it's capitalists and leninists. They're both just awful.
Ronnie, you silly goof. What will you do when you term-limit out of power and have no one you can bully. I think I'll start sending you love letters about how I want to lick the pudding from your fingers while gazing into your heartless empty eyes.
The term limit is Constitutional so he should have got something on the ballot this cycle if he wanted that changed. Here's the kicker though, it's not a lifetime limit. He can't serve more than 2 consecutive terms but he could come back in 2030.
Considering he's had laws Changed in the past to protect his position, this wasn't a crazy thought. It sent me doing research to see if it was possible.
Well, not without enough support from congress + senate. While Trump might not have the power for that initially, they can just use an administrative state packed with Trump loyalists to attack democrats.
At first thought, this was a crazy idea, but I did a little looking.
It turns out that Article Four Section 4 of the United States Constitution requires Congress to ensure that every state has a Republican form of government.
If this is like California, the proposition process allows the gathering of signatures and if enough are collected, the proposition goes to the ballot for direct democracy vote, bypassing the legislature in many cases.
I’ve never heard of police going to verify signatures directly. But it’s not technically voting.
Similar in Florida, after enough voted the amendment is placed onto the ballot and needs to get over 60% of votes on election night. I’ve never heard of officers investigating indivual petitioners, but petition / signature fraud is illegal, so I don’t believe this is technically voter intimidation.
Oh it’s definitely voter intimidation, they’re just using the law as a thinly veiled excuse to do it.
If someone put their name down for something, and the cops come knocking on their door about it, how many people do you think are really going to follow through and vote.
If they can find you because of a signature, they might find how you voted. And who’s to say they’ll just be asking questions next time.
Floridians still elect a representative that wipes his arse with the constitution
Step 1: Take all the Floridians that oppose the fascist state and arrest them. Try them with felonies. Then strip them of their voting rights under felony disenfranchisement (which was repealed in 2018, but then the state legislature said "No" and so the amendment got ignored).
Step 2: Now hold a new election and... looks like the conservatives win again!
Step 3: Pass a bunch of new fascist policies and pay off your friends. Oh, but you've upset some new people. Looks like they're protesting. Better... GOTO Step 1
Damn. Why don't Floridians just vote the fascists out? Guess they're all just fine with it.
The constitution is an outdated pact between slavers in order to violently control people. It's working as intended. It's actually not a magic document from god.
Potentially going to PRISON which would literally RUIN YOUR LIFE UNTIL YOU DIE for Signing a Ballot is PROOF that FLORIDA IS THE FREEST STATE ON EARTH!
Okay, sure, it sounds unconstitutional. And yes, it does appear that this DOJ is sitting back and letting it happen. But the DOJ under Trump would be worse, so you have to say nice things about Merrick Garland.
There is a solution to this, but it is not a peaceful or quick one. Most non-conservatives won't consider it. Most conservatives know this, and so they continue on their path to full oppression.
Drowning the black disenfranchised minority to punish the plutocrats who will simply pick and and infest a different state like rats fleeing a sinking ship.
I’ve really come to peace with this. I want to make lots of posts that and touch on many things, shallowly, even. Like. I do write good things and do more than just the barest funnest parts of research and verification, but like. This is the [very occasionally]shitty Anarcho socialist america bad side blog.
That's what the periodic expansion of the Supreme Court is for... Should that happen, it won't be the first time it's expanded, and may not be the last. Seems to the officially nominated fix, but it might need to eventually be shrunk again if such a process is to work every time.
We know your answer to it would be sectarian violence with no clear objectives resulting in excessive loss of life with the end result being the most violent sociopaths taking power and not letting go.
Mao once said "true power comes from the barrel of a gun" but Mao was a psychotic pedo and didnt realise that guns only have the power to end life not create it or to build anything lasting.
Go back to ML with this tankie bullshit.
Fascism is fucking terrible but they will only win if your solution to it is turn your home into a warzone.
in some respects, fascism is inevitable as there is no solution to preventing fascism from becoming a thing other than hoping that nobody does a fascism.
In some respects, it's not worth fighting for because fighting against it only justifies the deluded methods of the fascists at play.
It's only good/useful in the perspective of the fascist.
Criticizing a non fascist for letting fascism exist is a rather weird response to take when fascism is the literal threat at hand here.
These people love to find new creative ways to say "all we can do is let the fascists fascist, 🤷♂️" then turn around and call people accelerationists for mentioning they listened to a podcast about ww2 that called Hitler a bad guy.
You're being labeled a fascist sympathizer because you STARTED with calling somebody a tankie for pointing out democrats are complicit in our march toward fascism, then just started slinging every ""centrist"" trope around "I'm not a Republican I just think the real fascists are the people who won't let fascists overhaul the entire government to their whims, laws morals and standards be damned."
I'm also not engaging further with you, I just want you to know nobody is buying your bullshit.
where's my cynical opposition to anti-fascism? I'm politically opposed to the concept of parties fundamentally, antifa doesn't really fit any of these categories, it's just a sort of, nebulous concept. It's interesting, i'm just not sure how much power it has politically. Other than being a thing for republicans to complain about constantly for no reason other than being bad faith.
It's defeatist in nature, but how are you supposed to deal with fascism? There is no good way to deal with fascism other than using brute force and military. Which literally only bolsters their political agenda. The other option is to stop it before it's born, but good luck with that one lol.
There are also a lot of problems with shutting down certain speech as well, especially in a place like america where free speech is a thing that we have. It may be ruled constitutional to be fascist. Likewise, voting for fascism may be constitutional as well, so it may be completely legal for fascism to be in power in the US. The only opposition here is literally the public, and we all know how well that goes with fascism historically.
i want to hear your tankie ass explain how fascism is "removed" from society.
antifa
Hm, funny, I don't seem to remember mentioning antifa...
There is no good way to deal with fascism other than using brute force and military.
Fascism doesn't become an unstoppable force overnight without first having been enabled and appeased in at least the decades leading up. I'm sorry that you don't have the understanding, motivation, or imagination to ask for any intervention before this point, from people who have real power to intervene.
You still haven't answered my question.
I'm not the person you asked, nor do I have the answers to the universe, and I suspect that they do not either. Sure would be nice if our elected officials would do literally anything in the face of clear power grabs, though, and stand up for what their voters actually want instead of counting on the other team being worse. If I'm a tankie just for asking that of our representatives, then so be it.
"Hm, funny, I don’t seem to remember mentioning antifa…"
fascinating, technically not quite the same, but antifa isn't exactly structured enough to make it much different anyway.
I don't recall saying anything negative about antifa specifically either.
Fascism doesn’t become an unstoppable force overnight without first having been enabled and appeased in at least the decades leading up. I’m sorry that you don’t have the understanding, motivation, or imagination to ask for any intervention before this point, from people who have real power to intervene.
yeah, that's kind of the problem no? This is why i'm asking how we deal with it, you still havent proposed a reasonable answer to this problem. This is literally the boiling frog problem.
There are a couple of options, you could make fascist far right politics fundamentally illegal like in germany. Oh wait, the far right still exists over there. And like i said, in a place like america, you're probably going to run into problems with free speech.
fascism isn't exactly externally enabled, aside from any outside "stopping force" which is also arguably, fascist in some capacity. The vast majority of the enabling comes from within the party, and it builds slowly over time, eventually reaching a point where people realize. "hey we're in a pot of boiling water and i think we're about to die" or "hey uh, we're murdering jews now? That's uh, not cool"
like what are you expecting us to do? Act like the mother of a bad child at the sign of any inkling of fascism and go "hey guys, i see that you're doing a fascism here, maybe uh, you shouldn't be doing this?"
I’m not the person you asked, nor do I have the answers to the universe, and I suspect that they do not either.
that's fine, neither do i, and this would be the reason i asked them. But i find it counter productive to complain about shit tangential to really big problems, without being able to propose a solution. There's a discussion to be had here about the lack of concern over the rise of fascism, but i don't think blaming the democrats for the entirety of it is the answer to that question.
Sure would be nice if our elected officials would do literally anything in the face of clear power grabs
that would certainly be nice, and let me remind you, we tried to impeach trump twice the people who got in the way were republicans, both times. The second one was literally because "you can't impeach a non sitting president" which is stupid.
EVERY case of his currently in the courts is being constantly delayed by his lawyers, the supreme court, the judges even. LITERALLY EVERYTHING conservatives can put in the way of it, is being put in the way of it right now.
i mean an ENTIRE state, tried to remove him from their ballot.
we're TRYING to do things, but the primary stopping force, is actually republicans.
If I’m a tankie just for asking that of our representatives, then so be it.
i don't think that makes you a tankie alone, considering that even the republicans are our representatives, but blaming the democrats, when they seemingly keep trying to stop a second trump term from being a possibility, continually get shut down by republicans through the process, it seems either extremely ignorant to me, or conveniently ignorant to the point where you can advance a tankie line of reasoning complaining about democrats and calling them just as bad if not worse than republicans, even though that's patently false. (this part specifically being tankie)
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Florida is Patient Zero for American Fascism and the Libs Do Not Have an Answer to that Under the Constitution | Spyke
Some actual sources on this:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/desantis-election-police-questioned-people-who-signed-abortion-petitions/ar-AA1q8jhl
https://www.commondreams.org/news/florida-amendment-4
https://www.yahoo.com/news/florida-goes-full-police-state-211537202.html
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/09/06/advocates-desantis-admin-interfering-in-abortion-amendment-vote/75100416007/
https://www.rawstory.com/unhinged-and-undemocratic-florida-cops-question-abortion-petition-signers/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2024/09/06/gov-ron-desantis-crosses-line-in-floridas-war-against-abortion-rights/75099467007/
Right wing nut jobs do fascism.
LIBBBBSSSSS!!!!
???
Yes liberals aren't great and all. But this is sort of brain injury levels of dysfunction. A state level issue in a state where it's elected officials are attacking the citizens. And people whine about why the out of power largely unelected group isn't exercising more power? Because your mother f****** neighbors didn't put them in power. For all the problems liberals have. This is a voter problem. I'm not sure what they're hoping or expecting? New York or California to invade and set up a provisional government pending new elections?
People who bitch about "the libs" are usually tankies so anything short of rising up in violence to "do somthing" is doing nothing.
I don't know that I would go quite that far. But if I had a dollar for every time I saw someone doing that. And then looking at their Post history to see them defending similar actions elsewhere. I would have a nice little nest egg.
There absolutely are genuine criticisms of capitalism. Unfortunately people often disingenuously make them. Especially leninists. If there's two groups who have no business criticizing each other it's capitalists and leninists. They're both just awful.
For starters get off ML
How about getting off the internet next. Go outside. Touch. Grass.
There was never a liberal and socialist alliance in modern political history of France.
Yea god forbid anyone say anything about democrats that isn't unconditional ass kissing and point out how little they care about fascism
Run DeSantis out on rails
Ronnie, you silly goof. What will you do when you term-limit out of power and have no one you can bully. I think I'll start sending you love letters about how I want to lick the pudding from your fingers while gazing into your heartless empty eyes.
The term limit is Constitutional so he should have got something on the ballot this cycle if he wanted that changed. Here's the kicker though, it's not a lifetime limit. He can't serve more than 2 consecutive terms but he could come back in 2030.
Considering he's had laws Changed in the past to protect his position, this wasn't a crazy thought. It sent me doing research to see if it was possible.
Could be changed once Trump gets into office.
Florida Constitution not US. And no President can change the US Constitution or State's
Well, not without enough support from congress + senate. While Trump might not have the power for that initially, they can just use an administrative state packed with Trump loyalists to attack democrats.
At first thought, this was a crazy idea, but I did a little looking.
It turns out that Article Four Section 4 of the United States Constitution requires Congress to ensure that every state has a Republican form of government.
Pretty sure in Florida he can come back for another 2 terms after sitting 1 term out
Is not voter intimidation illegal?
If this is like California, the proposition process allows the gathering of signatures and if enough are collected, the proposition goes to the ballot for direct democracy vote, bypassing the legislature in many cases.
I’ve never heard of police going to verify signatures directly. But it’s not technically voting.
Similar in Florida, after enough voted the amendment is placed onto the ballot and needs to get over 60% of votes on election night. I’ve never heard of officers investigating indivual petitioners, but petition / signature fraud is illegal, so I don’t believe this is technically voter intimidation.
Oh it’s definitely voter intimidation, they’re just using the law as a thinly veiled excuse to do it.
If someone put their name down for something, and the cops come knocking on their door about it, how many people do you think are really going to follow through and vote.
If they can find you because of a signature, they might find how you voted. And who’s to say they’ll just be asking questions next time.
This is classic mob tactics.
Generally, verifying signatures is a function of the Auditor's office, but who knows, maybe the swat team does that in Florida.
Going to call the cops on the cops.
News article from a local paper with more details and interviews with voters that were questioned.
wdym, this sounds unconstitutional as hell
Watch as nothing happens and Floridians still elect a representative that wipes his arse with the constitution at every election
At what point does Biden send in the national guard to liberate these poor people from dictatorship? He's legally allowed to do it now right?
Step 1: Take all the Floridians that oppose the fascist state and arrest them. Try them with felonies. Then strip them of their voting rights under felony disenfranchisement (which was repealed in 2018, but then the state legislature said "No" and so the amendment got ignored).
Step 2: Now hold a new election and... looks like the conservatives win again!
Step 3: Pass a bunch of new fascist policies and pay off your friends. Oh, but you've upset some new people. Looks like they're protesting. Better... GOTO Step 1
Damn. Why don't Floridians just vote the fascists out? Guess they're all just fine with it.
The constitution is an outdated pact between slavers in order to violently control people. It's working as intended. It's actually not a magic document from god.
TIL great wiki article
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apotheosis_of_Washington
Pretty sure the liberal answer is "organize, donate, and for fucks sake, go vote" to keep these assholes from getting more power.
The leftist answer is to do nothing and just endlessly complain about liberals on the internet.
Leftist or tankie? Because plenty of leftists are sick of the blame the liberals schtick.
True, but plenty of them aren't though...
Potentially going to PRISON which would literally RUIN YOUR LIFE UNTIL YOU DIE for Signing a Ballot is PROOF that FLORIDA IS THE FREEST STATE ON EARTH!
And where is the DOJ? This sounds super unconstitutional.
Merrick Garland isn't going to interrupt a conservative colleague unless congress publicly shames him first.
Okay, sure, it sounds unconstitutional. And yes, it does appear that this DOJ is sitting back and letting it happen. But the DOJ under Trump would be worse, so you have to say nice things about Merrick Garland.
"I won't answer any questions without my lawyer present. If you don't have a warrant please leave my property "
Soap box, ballot box, bullet box.
I wonder if these jack boots are wearing level 4 plates.
There is a solution to this, but it is not a peaceful or quick one. Most non-conservatives won't consider it. Most conservatives know this, and so they continue on their path to full oppression.
The continental US: Hey florida how you doing?
florida: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Dems have basically given up here in FL. It is rough out here.
Just letting the climate do the work.
Drowning the black disenfranchised minority to punish the plutocrats who will simply pick and and infest a different state like rats fleeing a sinking ship.
Freeeeee speeeeeech
I think someone posted this somewhere in the chain: https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/elections/2024/09/06/florida-abortion-amendment-petition-signature-fraud-voters/
I’ve really come to peace with this. I want to make lots of posts that and touch on many things, shallowly, even. Like. I do write good things and do more than just the barest funnest parts of research and verification, but like. This is the [very occasionally]shitty Anarcho socialist america bad side blog.
Betcha Elon "free speech absolutist" Musk has a lot to say about this. Any minute now.
...crickets...
That's what the periodic expansion of the Supreme Court is for... Should that happen, it won't be the first time it's expanded, and may not be the last. Seems to the officially nominated fix, but it might need to eventually be shrunk again if such a process is to work every time.
Double post
This is why you don’t even answer the door. If you do don’t open it and tell them to go fornicate themselves with a rusty iron rod 😡
We know your answer to it would be sectarian violence with no clear objectives resulting in excessive loss of life with the end result being the most violent sociopaths taking power and not letting go.
Mao once said "true power comes from the barrel of a gun" but Mao was a psychotic pedo and didnt realise that guns only have the power to end life not create it or to build anything lasting.
Go back to ML with this tankie bullshit.
Fascism is fucking terrible but they will only win if your solution to it is turn your home into a warzone.
This just in: Lemmy user believes pointing out fascism is also fascism.
Yeah the amount of fascist apologia in this thread is kinda alarming...
How the hell did you arrive at that conclusion?
Democrats don't become perfect and nice and progressive just bc you ignore how they do nothing about fascism :3
and please explain to me how we get rid of fascism, i want to hear your tankie ass explain how fascism is "removed" from society.
Strike 1: Run them out on rails
Strike 2: Tar and feather
Strike 3: French onions
this is a pretty effective solution, if you don't care about free speech absolutism.
It's been done historically in the US, though for other reasons. Salem witch trials and what not.
Your assumption is that fascism is... inevitable? non-existent? not worth fighting? ...good or useful, even?
Just trying to pin your motivation in calling someone a tankie just for pointing out passive enablement of fascism...
in some respects, fascism is inevitable as there is no solution to preventing fascism from becoming a thing other than hoping that nobody does a fascism.
In some respects, it's not worth fighting for because fighting against it only justifies the deluded methods of the fascists at play.
It's only good/useful in the perspective of the fascist.
Criticizing a non fascist for letting fascism exist is a rather weird response to take when fascism is the literal threat at hand here.
Your full-on defeatism when it comes to fascists but rabid and cynical opposition to simple expressions of anti-fascism is pretty telling in itself.
Yeah, I'm not engaging this any further. Ick.
These people love to find new creative ways to say "all we can do is let the fascists fascist, 🤷♂️" then turn around and call people accelerationists for mentioning they listened to a podcast about ww2 that called Hitler a bad guy.
not unlike how i'm being labelled a fascist sympathizer in this case either. Gotta love politics.
You're being labeled a fascist sympathizer because you STARTED with calling somebody a tankie for pointing out democrats are complicit in our march toward fascism, then just started slinging every ""centrist"" trope around "I'm not a Republican I just think the real fascists are the people who won't let fascists overhaul the entire government to their whims, laws morals and standards be damned."
I'm also not engaging further with you, I just want you to know nobody is buying your bullshit.
where's my cynical opposition to anti-fascism? I'm politically opposed to the concept of parties fundamentally, antifa doesn't really fit any of these categories, it's just a sort of, nebulous concept. It's interesting, i'm just not sure how much power it has politically. Other than being a thing for republicans to complain about constantly for no reason other than being bad faith.
It's defeatist in nature, but how are you supposed to deal with fascism? There is no good way to deal with fascism other than using brute force and military. Which literally only bolsters their political agenda. The other option is to stop it before it's born, but good luck with that one lol.
There are also a lot of problems with shutting down certain speech as well, especially in a place like america where free speech is a thing that we have. It may be ruled constitutional to be fascist. Likewise, voting for fascism may be constitutional as well, so it may be completely legal for fascism to be in power in the US. The only opposition here is literally the public, and we all know how well that goes with fascism historically.
You still haven't answered my question.
Hm, funny, I don't seem to remember mentioning antifa...
Fascism doesn't become an unstoppable force overnight without first having been enabled and appeased in at least the decades leading up. I'm sorry that you don't have the understanding, motivation, or imagination to ask for any intervention before this point, from people who have real power to intervene.
I'm not the person you asked, nor do I have the answers to the universe, and I suspect that they do not either. Sure would be nice if our elected officials would do literally anything in the face of clear power grabs, though, and stand up for what their voters actually want instead of counting on the other team being worse. If I'm a tankie just for asking that of our representatives, then so be it.
"Hm, funny, I don’t seem to remember mentioning antifa…"
fascinating, technically not quite the same, but antifa isn't exactly structured enough to make it much different anyway.
I don't recall saying anything negative about antifa specifically either.
yeah, that's kind of the problem no? This is why i'm asking how we deal with it, you still havent proposed a reasonable answer to this problem. This is literally the boiling frog problem.
There are a couple of options, you could make fascist far right politics fundamentally illegal like in germany. Oh wait, the far right still exists over there. And like i said, in a place like america, you're probably going to run into problems with free speech.
fascism isn't exactly externally enabled, aside from any outside "stopping force" which is also arguably, fascist in some capacity. The vast majority of the enabling comes from within the party, and it builds slowly over time, eventually reaching a point where people realize. "hey we're in a pot of boiling water and i think we're about to die" or "hey uh, we're murdering jews now? That's uh, not cool"
like what are you expecting us to do? Act like the mother of a bad child at the sign of any inkling of fascism and go "hey guys, i see that you're doing a fascism here, maybe uh, you shouldn't be doing this?"
that's fine, neither do i, and this would be the reason i asked them. But i find it counter productive to complain about shit tangential to really big problems, without being able to propose a solution. There's a discussion to be had here about the lack of concern over the rise of fascism, but i don't think blaming the democrats for the entirety of it is the answer to that question.
that would certainly be nice, and let me remind you, we tried to impeach trump twice the people who got in the way were republicans, both times. The second one was literally because "you can't impeach a non sitting president" which is stupid.
EVERY case of his currently in the courts is being constantly delayed by his lawyers, the supreme court, the judges even. LITERALLY EVERYTHING conservatives can put in the way of it, is being put in the way of it right now.
i mean an ENTIRE state, tried to remove him from their ballot.
we're TRYING to do things, but the primary stopping force, is actually republicans.
i don't think that makes you a tankie alone, considering that even the republicans are our representatives, but blaming the democrats, when they seemingly keep trying to stop a second trump term from being a possibility, continually get shut down by republicans through the process, it seems either extremely ignorant to me, or conveniently ignorant to the point where you can advance a tankie line of reasoning complaining about democrats and calling them just as bad if not worse than republicans, even though that's patently false. (this part specifically being tankie)