Yep. The 14th13th Amendment is anti-slavery but has a carve-out for prisoners. Prisons use slave labor and private prisons are companies that profit from slavery.
Honestly if I’m ever imprisoned for being homeless and it doesn’t look like there’s a way out, you can be damn sure I’m not going to willingly work. They must provide three meals and a place to sleep and that’s all I will do. At that point I have no home and the carrot of “getting out” isn’t there. You’re not getting my labor for free too.
And for those unaware, solitary confinement permanently fucks up your brain hard. We are social creatures and the lack of socialization will make you unable to reintegration into society, and make you more likely to lash out with violence.
It's either forced labor (slavery) or brain damage. Nobody should have to choose between that.
Hey here's a horrible idea. Let's combine this with the debtors prisons we illegally run and recreate indentured servitude! As long as we call it something snazzy we can all pretend it's not slavery!
This article reeks of misunderstandings of America's peculiar prison instituon. I can assure you that there is no creature more satisfied than those in the the state penitentiary. Their every need is provided for. Clothing, food, shelter, all provided by the state.
(Is the /s necessary? I feel it cheapens the comment but oh well)
Guess why they're working so hard to criminalise poverty. Those private prisons won't fill themselves. And North Korea probably still has more prisoners by percentage of the population. Can't let these filthy commies win!
The US retains its status as the World’s No.1 Jailer with a prison population of 713 per 100,000 population, more than even any of the world’s most notorious and oppressive regimes like Myanmar (120 per 100,000 population), Cuba (510 per 100,000 population), and Iran (333 per 100,000). The only country that might challenge the US as the world’s No. 1 jailer is North Korea. Although information is limited, North Korea’s incarceration rate is estimated to be between 600-800 per 100,000 population.
I'll just ignore the fact that you believe criminals don't deserve basic human rights and ask if you really believe innocent people don't go to jail. Do you actually think the police you watch mess up daily never make mistakes?
Perfect observation! The criminal justice system is chock full of folks with mens rea, cops, judges, most of the staff in most of the jails... Good point!
While this is awful, imagine for a moment how fucked it is that our agricultural market is so depressed that it can only function if we pay "illegal" immigrants such a low wage that no one else would accept it, to the point that when that supply dries up, we can't possibly solve the problem except with legalized slavery.
They can function with legal laborers, they deliberately choose not to because they can rely on a permanently endangered domestic underclass that they can super-exploit for supet-profits.
I saw someone recently express a wish to see prisoners slaves burn down the factories and businesses of anyone who uses their forced labor. And I can't think of a more beautiful and justified action.
And I'll say what I said then, this doesn't count for voluntary work programs, unless they are "voluntary" and you get punished for not accepting them.
I truly hope to see the news when this happens. Slavery is one of the worst evils in the world, and the 13th amendment needs to be changed so that it's no longer allowed.
God i hate this part about the USA.
That's so uncivilized and barbaric, this is the 21th century and i always imagined it to be.... Cooler. Like the star-trek-utopia. But it turned out to be(come) a mixture of 1984, soylent green, lord of the flies and... Ah forget it.
In some countries that actually abolish slavery, it is. Forced labour is also forbidden by human rights, but I know some countries don't care about that either.
Most people can't take it. But when you have zero choice and zero options, you internalize the screaming and just endure. There's a reason why ex-cons carry a tension in their shoulders for the rest of their lives.
At your parole hearing: "I feel that I should be released. Clearly I am not pulling my weight in the work program. We all know how much it costs per inmate to keep running this prison. I believe it is in your interest to release me to increase your bottom line."
I don't know for sure, but I think that you're charged both to be in prison and for things like food, so if you refuse to work (for awful pay) you'll go hungry. Though likely your room won't be taken, I guess.
Disclaimer: I know almost nothing about the topic and very well may be entirely wrong.
You won't go hungry. They do have to feed you no matter what. I'm not sure what the pay rate is for being a farm worker but it probably puts a little on your commissary account so you can get new socks, ramen, coffee, a candy bar, or other "luxuries".
The truth is that it's so mind numbingly boring in prison that they'll have more volunteers than they need. People are itching for any hint of normalcy and a job is that hint. Others want that extra commissary money because they don't have families to put money on their books. Still others see it as an opportunity to possibly get contraband back to their cell or pass info in and out of the prison.
There's no shortage of volunteers for even the most menial labor from prison.
Sure thing! It's more complex than I'm letting on and my state doesn't pay for labor but most do. And it's not really volunteering if it's your only opportunity to not be in a gray building for years. It's survival. And to get the "opportunity" to volunteer you have to be really good, which also means keeping the people that aren't good off your back because they'll just blame everyone involved if something goes wrong. And you have to be in good with the guards because if you piss one off they'll make sure that you have infractions that keep you from going out to do something.
I've had both friends and family that have gone to prison so I read up a little on how it works. I'm lucky I didn't go in my misspent youth.
They charge you more than you make, to be sure that you're heavily in debt and likely to return to crime out of desperation at some point shortly after release. Either that or they get rich from your labor, and get even more rich from your family paying the bill. It's absolutely completely fucking insane to charge prisoners to be held against their will in prison, especially considering the prison profits from the prisoner. We live in a fucked up society where our leaders do nothing for us, or our problems, and everything for the wealth of a select few.
Why do you think most laws are made to disproportionately effect non white people negatively
america's prison system is the new slave trade
Anyone repukelicans view as beneath them or against their bigoted beleifs can be targeted by this and this is a major reason not to let trumpet into office
I'm glad I don't live in america but trumpet is a potential threat to other countries as well
To everyone saying "I wouldn't work", an advice: there's a better way. Be the one that fucks up the work by "being stupid". Refusing to work can be punished; being stupid is not.
If you don't want to clean the bathroom you can say "I won't" or do it once and say "look how clean it is now. And I have used that nice brush that's beside the WC".
This. If the prisoners are given the option to work instead of spend time in jail, and if they pay them for that labour, even if it's subsidized or whatever, this goes from questionably legal slavery to a work program for inmates.
It becomes a way for the inmates to get some cash, and gain practical work skills for when they eventually get released. The money should probably be saved for basic needs when released (food, housing, etc) and the work skills can be applied in future jobs. At least they would have some experience with working that will hopefully help them get a job after they're released.
There's still a big problem of people hiring ex-convicts, but that's a separate issue to be solved.
They could have turned this "you mean slavery?" Moment into a PR win simply by making the work voluntary and giving them modest compensation.
Also if it's a decent company then you might have a job lined up for you once you're out since you've worked there already and shown you can handle the job and so on. And having a job, income, some normalcy once you go out goes a long way. Turns this from exploitation to a way to reintroduce people to life outside of prison and whatnot. Not that companies wouldn't benefit from this too, since it'd most likely be less money than a normal full-time worker, but it could be a rare win-win situation if handled correctly.
Those are pretty neat! I'm guessing the commenter who made the original statement was referring to countries so doubt this would invalidate their statement.
The country I see people saying that's older is England, but with the monarch messes things up depending on definitions (the US constitution even mentions the king quite a few times so was England considered a democracy yet?).
It's probably one of those things where the definition is loose enough that many different countries/organizations can claim to be the oldest and be right under whatever criteria they've decided
Technically the 6 Nations, which the US copied a lot of their democracy, is older by several thousand years, but people like to pretend they are all dead.
It's probably a bit arbitrary, but best I can find England's democracy is younger. Likely due to the king still having certain powers preventing England from being considered a democracy until a good bit after the founding of the US
Yes, the american democracy is the oldest under a very narrow view of what constitutes a democracy, which basically the republic style yall invented, not even a real democracy anyways.
Well, oldest existing one to be precise but those before were so vastly different that we can safely ignore them and think in the context of existing political systems
because violent criminals should experience justice before death, and that justice should attempt to repay society for the crimes they've committed. I have yet to meet anyone against sentencing people to community service as part of a parole, but as soon as you also keep them in prison as part of their sentence, it's immoral and unjust?
By keeping people who think the punishment for doing violent crimes has become "lax enough" from themselves committing these crimes.
I'm thinking of the people who would rather kill their spouse than go through a divorce, or who would kill someone to leave no witnesses to a lesser crime. I'm worried about any of these people seeing a completely humane prison system and thinking "yeah even if I got caught it would be worth it.” for any crime that harms another person. This is a short term change in policy that we can enact to make a HUGE leap in improving our justice system, while the mental healthcare system of our country catches up.
Yep. The
14th13th Amendment is anti-slavery but has a carve-out for prisoners. Prisons use slave labor and private prisons are companies that profit from slavery.America is a slave state.
It's the 13th, but otherwise accurate.
Whoops, you're right. Both have been of discussion lately and got mixed up.
Easy enough mistake to make..
Number 1 in total prison pop. Number 6 per capita, after El Salvador, Cuba, Rwanda, Turkmenistan, American Samoa.
Land of the free babyyyy.
Looks like #5 since American Samoa is one of our territories, and those people are American citizens
Raise rent to unaffordable levels, criminalize being homeless, enslave the poverty stricken.
Honestly if I’m ever imprisoned for being homeless and it doesn’t look like there’s a way out, you can be damn sure I’m not going to willingly work. They must provide three meals and a place to sleep and that’s all I will do. At that point I have no home and the carrot of “getting out” isn’t there. You’re not getting my labor for free too.
Prisons will punish inmates who refuse to work. They use the constant threat of solitary confinement as a motivator.
And for those unaware, solitary confinement permanently fucks up your brain hard. We are social creatures and the lack of socialization will make you unable to reintegration into society, and make you more likely to lash out with violence.
It's either forced labor (slavery) or brain damage. Nobody should have to choose between that.
Punish you for not working? Of course not! No we reward you for working by letting you out of solitary.
Work will set you free….
That has a little German flavor and I don't know why.
It's from the concentration camps: "Arbeit macht frei" - "work makes [you] free"
That was the joke
Durch krematorium nummer drei
That's when they retaliate by e.g. putting you in solitary.
Cool cool, still not getting any work out of me. I’ll gladly make it a test of wills.
Is going slowly insane from being in solitary confinement really an improvement over forced labor? Guess it depends on the person.
Yes it definitely does
And more power to you but your the exception and not the rule.
Ya, I'm sure the guards and warden will just accept that without much fuss.
And maybe in 2224, we will sing about you.
Not much has changed since the enclosure and vagabond acts, back in 1600s Britain. All we've done since is refine and moralise the process.
Fire is the answer.
Peonage is baaack!
Hey here's a horrible idea. Let's combine this with the debtors prisons we illegally run and recreate indentured servitude! As long as we call it something snazzy we can all pretend it's not slavery!
Just say it's to fight terrorism, or protect children, and everyone will defend it.
Mmmhmm yes I hear what you're asking for. Don't worry the children will be very safe in The Program^tm
This article reeks of misunderstandings of America's peculiar prison instituon. I can assure you that there is no creature more satisfied than those in the the state penitentiary. Their every need is provided for. Clothing, food, shelter, all provided by the state.
(Is the /s necessary? I feel it cheapens the comment but oh well)
Most definitely needed. I've seen this very point being made "seriously".
Next time save it so I can see it
I agree it cheapens it, but unfortunately it's far too easy to imagine someone truly believing that.
Yeah, Poe’s Law is (unfortunately) in full effect.
Guess why they're working so hard to criminalise poverty. Those private prisons won't fill themselves. And North Korea probably still has more prisoners by percentage of the population. Can't let these filthy commies win!
Thanks to the Drug War, the US Incarcerates More of Its Own People Than Any Country in the World Except Maybe N. Korea
"They deserve that because they're criminals."
I'll just ignore the fact that you believe criminals don't deserve basic human rights and ask if you really believe innocent people don't go to jail. Do you actually think the police you watch mess up daily never make mistakes?
The concept of"Mens rea" provides important context that is missing from your observation.
Perfect observation! The criminal justice system is chock full of folks with mens rea, cops, judges, most of the staff in most of the jails... Good point!
While this is awful, imagine for a moment how fucked it is that our agricultural market is so depressed that it can only function if we pay "illegal" immigrants such a low wage that no one else would accept it, to the point that when that supply dries up, we can't possibly solve the problem except with legalized slavery.
Oh, they can function while paying legal workers the legal minimum wage. They just don't want to, as they make more money doing things like the above.
They can function with legal laborers, they deliberately choose not to because they can rely on a permanently endangered domestic underclass that they can super-exploit for supet-profits.
Right? When "make line go up" is the only thing that matters, this is ultimately where things will lead
Public Enemy was dropping songs about this 30+ years ago, things worse now.
I saw someone recently express a wish to see
prisonersslaves burn down the factories and businesses of anyone who uses their forced labor. And I can't think of a more beautiful and justified action.And I'll say what I said then, this doesn't count for voluntary work programs, unless they are "voluntary" and you get punished for not accepting them.
I truly hope to see the news when this happens. Slavery is one of the worst evils in the world, and the 13th amendment needs to be changed so that it's no longer allowed.
I don't see the controversy, it's literally in the constitution. The 13th ammendment didn't end slavery, it restricted it.
Don't be worse than Russia. Please fix.
At this point I should add it to my bio.
Exactly.
God i hate this part about the USA. That's so uncivilized and barbaric, this is the 21th century and i always imagined it to be.... Cooler. Like the star-trek-utopia. But it turned out to be(come) a mixture of 1984, soylent green, lord of the flies and... Ah forget it.
Don't worry, we're slowly adding Handmaid's Tale to that mix.
sigh
Oh yes, very precise and fitting.
It is like star trek. The problem is, we're nothing like the federation. If anyone, were closest to the ferengi.
I hate you. Because you're right and even more cynical than me
You forgot Brave New World.
Aye. Another commenter added the perfect picture...
Sounds like communism
Although i highly benefit from capitalism, it's the worst. Would prefer communism
Always has been.
Slavery remained legal as a punishment for crime, it was never completely abolished
In some countries that actually abolish slavery, it is. Forced labour is also forbidden by human rights, but I know some countries don't care about that either.
I'm assuming the article is from the USA, so that is the context of my comment.
Yes, other countries do different things.
What happens if you simply refuse to work? Extended sentence? Psychological torture?
Yes.
They'll call it "not qualifying for early release" and such to make it all cool and legal, but yes.
The CO beatings will continue until
moraleprofits improve.Most people can't take it. But when you have zero choice and zero options, you internalize the screaming and just endure. There's a reason why ex-cons carry a tension in their shoulders for the rest of their lives.
At your parole hearing: "I feel that I should be released. Clearly I am not pulling my weight in the work program. We all know how much it costs per inmate to keep running this prison. I believe it is in your interest to release me to increase your bottom line."
I don't know for sure, but I think that you're charged both to be in prison and for things like food, so if you refuse to work (for awful pay) you'll go hungry. Though likely your room won't be taken, I guess.
Disclaimer: I know almost nothing about the topic and very well may be entirely wrong.
You won't go hungry. They do have to feed you no matter what. I'm not sure what the pay rate is for being a farm worker but it probably puts a little on your commissary account so you can get new socks, ramen, coffee, a candy bar, or other "luxuries".
The truth is that it's so mind numbingly boring in prison that they'll have more volunteers than they need. People are itching for any hint of normalcy and a job is that hint. Others want that extra commissary money because they don't have families to put money on their books. Still others see it as an opportunity to possibly get contraband back to their cell or pass info in and out of the prison.
There's no shortage of volunteers for even the most menial labor from prison.
Thanks for the edification!
Sure thing! It's more complex than I'm letting on and my state doesn't pay for labor but most do. And it's not really volunteering if it's your only opportunity to not be in a gray building for years. It's survival. And to get the "opportunity" to volunteer you have to be really good, which also means keeping the people that aren't good off your back because they'll just blame everyone involved if something goes wrong. And you have to be in good with the guards because if you piss one off they'll make sure that you have infractions that keep you from going out to do something.
I've had both friends and family that have gone to prison so I read up a little on how it works. I'm lucky I didn't go in my misspent youth.
They charge you more than you make, to be sure that you're heavily in debt and likely to return to crime out of desperation at some point shortly after release. Either that or they get rich from your labor, and get even more rich from your family paying the bill. It's absolutely completely fucking insane to charge prisoners to be held against their will in prison, especially considering the prison profits from the prisoner. We live in a fucked up society where our leaders do nothing for us, or our problems, and everything for the wealth of a select few.
Why do you think most laws are made to disproportionately effect non white people negatively
america's prison system is the new slave trade
Anyone repukelicans view as beneath them or against their bigoted beleifs can be targeted by this and this is a major reason not to let trumpet into office
I'm glad I don't live in america but trumpet is a potential threat to other countries as well
To everyone saying "I wouldn't work", an advice: there's a better way. Be the one that fucks up the work by "being stupid". Refusing to work can be punished; being stupid is not.
You underestimate systemic cruelty.
If you don't want to clean the bathroom you can say "I won't" or do it once and say "look how clean it is now. And I have used that nice brush that's beside the WC".
Would be fine if it was truly voluntary. Work programs can actually help.
This. If the prisoners are given the option to work instead of spend time in jail, and if they pay them for that labour, even if it's subsidized or whatever, this goes from questionably legal slavery to a work program for inmates.
It becomes a way for the inmates to get some cash, and gain practical work skills for when they eventually get released. The money should probably be saved for basic needs when released (food, housing, etc) and the work skills can be applied in future jobs. At least they would have some experience with working that will hopefully help them get a job after they're released.
There's still a big problem of people hiring ex-convicts, but that's a separate issue to be solved.
They could have turned this "you mean slavery?" Moment into a PR win simply by making the work voluntary and giving them modest compensation.
Also if it's a decent company then you might have a job lined up for you once you're out since you've worked there already and shown you can handle the job and so on. And having a job, income, some normalcy once you go out goes a long way. Turns this from exploitation to a way to reintroduce people to life outside of prison and whatnot. Not that companies wouldn't benefit from this too, since it'd most likely be less money than a normal full-time worker, but it could be a rare win-win situation if handled correctly.
I’m not sure what is so “clever” or “comeback” about this
There's a reason we're here now.
Yes because it appeared in my feed
Well, if there are slaves, we might as well hire some Balrogs to whip them. Make em get dat yung harvest quicker.
That's why prisoner should have a normal working wage and not the special prisoner wage.
Username checks out?
But also I agree.
Accidentally deleted but basically USA democracy oldest so most fucked cause new tech never made it to release branch
😂 Holy shit, your education system is sooooo fucked
Wait, is there another? The US is often cited as the oldest democracy. It's not the first of course, but that's a different thing
One of the oldest still active democracy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_board_(Netherlands)
If you go back in history there are a lot more you can choose from.
Those are pretty neat! I'm guessing the commenter who made the original statement was referring to countries so doubt this would invalidate their statement.
The country I see people saying that's older is England, but with the monarch messes things up depending on definitions (the US constitution even mentions the king quite a few times so was England considered a democracy yet?).
It's probably one of those things where the definition is loose enough that many different countries/organizations can claim to be the oldest and be right under whatever criteria they've decided
Technically the 6 Nations, which the US copied a lot of their democracy, is older by several thousand years, but people like to pretend they are all dead.
England's is far older, I don't know if it's the oldest but it's much older.
I don't think back in 1776 England was very democratic
well maybe you don't know much about 1776 England.
You convinced me!
It's probably a bit arbitrary, but best I can find England's democracy is younger. Likely due to the king still having certain powers preventing England from being considered a democracy until a good bit after the founding of the US
Yes, the american democracy is the oldest under a very narrow view of what constitutes a democracy, which basically the republic style yall invented, not even a real democracy anyways.
Well, oldest existing one to be precise but those before were so vastly different that we can safely ignore them and think in the context of existing political systems
Abolish the death penalty and make labor its own sentence, harsher than prison, and outlaw using nonviolent criminals as laborers
So, the objective is to get "littering" to be considered a crime of violence?
Why do you find it so important to keep slavery a thing in the US?
because violent criminals should experience justice before death, and that justice should attempt to repay society for the crimes they've committed. I have yet to meet anyone against sentencing people to community service as part of a parole, but as soon as you also keep them in prison as part of their sentence, it's immoral and unjust?
How does that help anyone?
By keeping people who think the punishment for doing violent crimes has become "lax enough" from themselves committing these crimes.
I'm thinking of the people who would rather kill their spouse than go through a divorce, or who would kill someone to leave no witnesses to a lesser crime. I'm worried about any of these people seeing a completely humane prison system and thinking "yeah even if I got caught it would be worth it.” for any crime that harms another person. This is a short term change in policy that we can enact to make a HUGE leap in improving our justice system, while the mental healthcare system of our country catches up.