UN says 800,000 people have fled Rafah as Israel kills dozens in Gaza
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/18/un-says-800000-people-have-fled-rafah-as-israel-kills-dozens-in-gazaOpen linkView original on lemmy.world223
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/18/un-says-800000-people-have-fled-rafah-as-israel-kills-dozens-in-gazaOpen linkView original on lemmy.world
I keep asking pro-Israel people here on Lemmy what the maximum number of children that they feel it is necessary to sacrifice in this war.
I get two answers, usually both together:
And they expect me to accept those answers as if they were true.
They're not really engaging with you, just like Israel isn't really interested in a dialogue about the situation. They just need you to think there's a civil dialogue being had so that we don't realize the need to stop them by force.
You've got to see this from the Israeli perspective: An inside look at a terrorist group's summer camp for kids
This is quite literally how they see the world. Every child in Rafa is this child. Every adult is a terrorist cell leader. Every refugee is going to want revenge. Every survivor is going to join the next revolt.
Its the same logic American colonists used on First Nations people, as they carved their way westward. Its the logic Serbians used as they butchered their way through Bosnia. Its the logic American soldiers used in Hadditha and Kandahar. Children are just tiny future evil adults and killing them is right because they are incapable of doing anything but wrong.
You had me in the first half.
The going rate is 1:30 Israelis to Palestinians in revenge killing. For killing each Hamas militant they're allowed to kill around 20 as collateral damage. 50% in Gaza are children so 10 kids per Hamas militant is okay according to the Israeli government.
According to some people here, infinite kids per militant is okay to maintain Israeli security.
And I have no idea why they think a state that believes killing large numbers of children is acceptable is worth securing.
They didn't put the kids in with the terrorists, the terrorists did. They don't get to dictate the terms of battle because it makes a small minority of westerners too sad to see any nuance or larger picture.
"They have to kill the children because there are terrorists next to them" is really not a moral defense for killing children. If anything, it makes it seem like the terrorists have a point.
The terrorism came first.
"The terrorism came first" is also not a moral defense for killing children, sorry. I get that you really like the idea of killing people, but that doesn't make it morally defensible.
Yes, there is no moral defense for hamas's decision to let these kids die.
I mean yes but that's how Israel started
The terrorism against Jews started long before Israel.
Fucking hell. What is your damage, exactly?
Cool there's already one saying they're okay with all of them being killed
Isis and Hamas aren't the same https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-war-islamic-state-group-29e59446a42d077323a3a216127c4978
Killing everyone just makes more terrorists. Answer is making it better for populations not eliminating everything that moves.
You have a very active fantasy life if you think Hamas would stand a chance against the combined forces of NATO.
And what would Hamas accomplish by doing that?
So you didn't read the article I linked. Not surprised
Why would they?
Either way killing/displacing a population isn't how you stop terrorism
By eradicating and displacing a population.
So? Flag burning has been a protest method for decades (and a way to properly dispose of flags)
Rediculous. They are the same in every respect except where they want the seat of the new Islamic caliphate to be, after they've killed all the Jews.
Hamas can't get its members to stop paying dues to ISIS, and vice versa, the leaders had to declare war against each other to let them know how super serious they are about poaching each others suicidal nutjobs.
You're right, Israel should not get a free pass for genocide or ethnic cleansing.
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter
The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. Hamas wants an end to Israel as an Apartheid State, not an extermination of all Israelis. Under Ahmed Yassin in the 1990's, truces were offered in exchange for Israeli to withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank to the 1967 borders. The 2017 Revised charter explicitly accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he's not Palestinian.
History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012
No I don't support Hamas as a ruling party, I want Palestinians to be able to have free fair elections.
Okay, but what if they vote for the wrong people. Can we go back to genocide then?
What are you talking about? A free and fair election is impossible under an apartheid regime
Edit: oh I think your comment was sarcasm lol, i can be hard to tell without the /s
Okay, but maybe we just take a poll and if too many Palestinians support Hamas we can use that as an excuse not to hold elections.
Tell Palestinians to excise their Iranian corruption, tell us where Hamas is hiding, and where the tunnels are located.
Until then, the Palestinians don't want Palestinians to be able to have free fair elections, who cares that you do?
Yes those are figures. Really speaks to the absolute abysmal failure of Hamas to act like leaders.
Hmm...
Israeli inquiry finds Oct 7 hostage likely killed by friendly fire
Israel's military has nominated a new chief rabbi who seemed to imply in a past religious commentary that its soldiers are allowed to rape non-Jewish women in wartime. He responded that in the interests of maintaining warriors' morale and fighting fitness during armed conflict, it was permitted to "satisfy the evil inclination by lying with attractive Gentile women against their will".
Israeli police break up ultra-Orthodox Jews’ military service protest
Christians in the Holy Land say they’re under attack as Israeli-Palestinian violence soars: Church officials and Christian leaders in Israel blame a minority of Jewish extremists for the attacks. They say Israel’s far-right government has fostered a culture of impunity.
An Israeli police raid on the Al-Aqsa Mosque triggers a spate of violence
The IDF is out of control. I don't know if I'd call these acts "genocidal", but its clear that Netanyahu's war has turned inward on any Israeli resident who resists his dictatorial decree.
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making the society ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal such as deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.
Forced expulsion of Palestinians has been central to Zionism since the 1880's
There are a lot of factors of the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world, but your conflating of the two as justification or minimization of the Nakba doesn't work; unless you somehow think all Arabs or Muslims are the same. But it's pretty clear your racist towards Palestinians or Arabs or Muslims when your argument boils down to 'they are violent primitives and deserve to die,' just going straight to dehumanization and ignoring all material conditions of Apartheid
Worse than that. For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces.
This was a deliberate strategy of divide-and-conquer by the Israeli government.
It'll never be enough, so long as a single living Palestinian still knows about the Nakba and claims a right of return. For Israelis, its not just about Hamas. The only solution to the Palestinian Question is a final one.
As per item 2: If the enemy was using them as hostages I sure as shit wouldn't just bomb the building and kill everyone. I'd prefer to use special forces to go in on foot and secure the building with minimal casualties. And only when diplomacy fails.
The enemy was using them as shields because they didn't think you'd be that fucking stupid to just bomb everyone; they assumed you had some empathy.
I'm neither pro-Israel nor pro-Hamas, but I believe the correct answer is "same as in every other war".
In other words, the maximum rate of Gazan casualties you will accept depends on the maximum rate of Axis casualties you would have accepted in WW2. That might be zero or it might be fairly high.
Not the same as in every war.
https://www.msnbc.com/top-stories/latest/death-toll-children-gaza-israel-rcna143269
That's cherry picking.
The civilian casualty rate in Gaza is about the same as the Second Chechen War and less than on the East Front, in North Korea, or in Vietnam.
Since I asked how many children and not the rate of children, I'm pretty sure a count of children is not cherry picking.
But I guess your answer is that any amount of children killed in a war is acceptable and nothing to be complaining about.
I didn't say it was acceptable. It is no more acceptable than civilian deaths in Germany, Japan, or Chechnya.
People are often more concerned about the rate of deaths because Gaza is relatively small. But if you really are counting how many and not the rate, then the vast majority of wars were worse than Gaza. The number of civilian deaths in Dresden alone is comparable to those in Gaza. Over 150,000 civilians have died in Iraq.
And as I said, some people find one civilian death to be unacceptable, others are willing to accept more than one. I've never met anyone who is willing to accept "any amount".
Interesting that you keep saying 'civilian death' and not 'child.' Seems like we're talking about two very different things.
Then see the person who replied to me who says it's worth killing any amount to get rid of Hamas.
Maybe so. But personally, I believe that all civilian deaths are equally tragic whether of a child, an old man, or a mother. In fact, I would object if someone said "X dead women is acceptable, but X dead children is unacceptable", because personally I believe that whatever X you choose should be age-independent. YMMV
What worm ate your brain and made you think that is the choice of sides here?? Fighting for Palestinian emancipation has nothing to do with being pro-Hamas you dingus.
Those are the two sides that are currently at war. They are both religiously motivated right-wing regimes, and I support neither one.
I'm also not fighting for Palestinian "emancipation", for the same reason I'm not fighting to "emancipate" Istanbul from Turks or New York from Americans.
If Israel were ONLY attacking Hamas, you'd be correct.
The problem is they are insistant on attacking, bombing, killing, and displacing all of the innocent Palestinians in Gaza as well, because they have been at war with Palestine, not Hamas, for generations now.
They are at war with Palestine just as Americans were at war with Germany and Japan. Many civilians were killed and displaced there, too.
Palestine didn't attack them, Hamas did.
Hamas is the government of Gaza
It's a dumb question. Hamas puts the kids in harm's way, Hamas and their loyal supporters. They love nothing more than their own kids dead from Israeli weapons, it's the only way they will win this war, tricking well meaning people such as yourself.
800,000 people left Rafah safely. Blame Hamas for 0.006% of them being killed. What did Hamas do this time, tell them the evacuation was fake or hold them against their will?
More likely they just indoctrinated them over decades, convinced them it's patriotic and holy to sit inside a room with terrorists to be used as fodder for Qatari and Iranian state media to try to drum of western support. At some point they realized this is more effective than suicide bombings.
Ah, "indoctrinated" children deserve to die. I see.
It's kinda sad how many times they just rephrase that hypothetical to make it sound justified to be able to kill children
Nobody is seeking out kids to kill except Hamas.
"What is the maximum number of hostages police are allowed to kill before they negotiate with the bank robber?"
This isn't a game where the IDF has to grind kids for XP before attacking a final boss, asshole. The answer is "as few as possible, ideally zero", but the IDF has shown that they are either stupidly or maliciously indiscriminate in who they kill.
All the videos of idf soldiers looking happy and excited to either mow the grass or show off all the destruction.
Neither side should be doing it but the trained side should you know actually act trained
I sincerely hope you aren't a parent with that attitude about children.
Zero. Israel should not kill one single child. If they can't defeat Hamas without killing children, then maybe Hamas has a point.
Amazing how hamas can go into Israel, murder children, then get asylum by hiding among its own children.
By your logic I can grab a couple of babies, shoot up school, and I should be untouchable as long as I have a baby vest?
Are you honestly suggesting that the IDF has absolutely no culpability when it comes to killing children? All dead children in Gaza are Hamas' fault?
Because otherwise, you don't understand what you are calling my logic.
So you're saying that even if an IDF soldier shoots a child in the face, it's Hamas' fault? Really?
Yes, because hamas is the reason for this soldier being there.
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This is precisely the goal of Netanyahu - though I don't blame any individual who flees.
If Gaza is depopulated settlers can move in and claim the land.