Tomato, tomato. The free market is a myth, there is no part of the economy that goes without manipulation. Anytime business owners can’t directly manipulate the market themselves they bribe governments to do it on their behalf.
I don't think anyone is arguing that a pure free market exists.
Having a capitalist economy doesn't mean that you have a pure free market anyway.
Although there are libertarians that would like to have a free market like that, every capitalist economy has regulations in place in an attempt to prevent monopolies and/or businesses having too much power in one area.
Most east Asian countries are fairly low down on the list. They have excellent public transport, the world's best high-speed rail networks, and a significant number of road vehicles are already electric.
EVs are expected to reach 45% marketshare in 2024 in CN. Also I guess you haven't seen their high speed rail network expand over the last decade (pressuring their car market in general). Then you have a lot of capita. So yes the numbers make sense.
It does sadly. On the flip side, China seems to be trying to capture car manufacturing markets by subsidizing their producers. This would probably be a bad thing in the future if allowed. Hopefully the US government does more work on making it easier to purchase electric cars in the US(specifically the price) while also reducing the need for driving.
The US Government doesn't want US automakers to lose market share so that they have plenty of manufacturing capacity that could be retooled to make weapons in case of war.
The point of trade decisions, is to import products you don't have enough domestic production to cover the demand for.
We know that the US auto and oil industries have no sincere desire to build EVs anyway (or any green industry whatsoever), because they did their best to kill their domestic production of EVs in the 90s, and there's no US industry for solar panels.
This is all just part of the US's trade war with China, that is prioritizing the profits of its auto and oil industries over the wellbeing of the environment, and the desires of its citizens for electric vehicles.
I'm sorry but this argument doesn't make sense. Don't you have safety rules in the US? If the Chinese cars aren't safe to drive nobody should be authorized to drive them in the first place. If they are safe, no need for tariffs then.
This decision has absolutely nothing to do with alleged poor manufacturing quality. It's protectionism, pure and simple.
Why can’t they just certify cars based on safety and ban unsafe ones instead of blanket ban the entire segment of them. It certainly helps the adoption of EV among masses.
It sounds you’re still stuck in the 1990s. Where do our iPhones and other smartphones and our laptops come from? Where do many of the parts in our cars come from? What country has more high speed rail than every other combined? What country has its own space station?
Also no US auto-manufacturer is going all in on EVs, they're all mostly building gas-guzzling oversized trucks and SUVs. US automakers intentionally killed EVs in the 90s, and hoped no other country would start building them.
Also no US auto-manufacturer is going all in on EVs
Tesla? Rivian? Lucid? Faraday? Fisker?
To be clear, yes, of course I understand that those are all luxury brands, but that doesn't make your statement any less false.
No, the major auto manufacturers aren't going all-in on EVs, but that are all getting deeper every year. There's no reason to expect that progress to slow down, as they're all quite entrenched in the technology at this point.
To be clear, yes, of course I understand that those are all luxury brands, but that doesn’t make your statement any less false.
I mean, of course the explicitly EV-making startups are going to be all-in on EVs. The distinguishing feature that makes them not count compared to [established] US auto manufacturers isn't that their stuff is luxury, it's that they didn't exist before and have no previous internal-combustion product line to pivot away from.
I'd rather we ensure higher standards of safety and quality for our vehicles, which are already terrifying death machines, but the hit to solar is a real step backwards.
That's not how you ensure America leads the world in them. That's how you ensure corps feel safe not doing shit to innovate anymore. This is just another form of a bailout.
Doesn't China subsidize what they export on top of having cheap labor? In that case a free market argument cannot really be made.
The innovation in the US or elsewhere would have to be extreme shifts to compete.
I mean, of course there’s loaded language in all this. Are you also surprised at the language and rhetoric used by Chinese government and media sources when they talk about the US?
Technically yes. However, most of the time, they just outsource manufacturing. Research and developement is still usually done in house. Apple for example, wrote the software and designed the hardware for the iPhone but assembles it in China because of cost.
Cheap panels are tanking European competitors, but it's probably too late to intervene at this point. Can't compete with work camps and cheap slave labor.
Correct... using work camps and cheap slave labour was only acceptable when US companies shipped production to China and pocketed the profits... now that China is doing it directly, it's certainly a problem we all care about
Between federal and state tax credits, as well as utility company rebates, my folks just got over 5k back for a used Nissan leaf. They were able to trade in their old clunker, netting a profit of a few hundred dollars to upgrade to a practical used EV.
so u cant because the "executive class" (capitalist they are called capitalist) control everything, u theoretically COULD if u had a revolution but u CANT.
Yeah, except everyone has had it beaten into them - nobody fucks with gas prices.
Every news outlet in the country runs the same news segment practically daily - "Let's complain about gas prices". We've somehow made it the subject of basically nonstop discussion.
I mean, there is a case for discussing gas prices since it's the price of mobile energy for everything from tractors to trucking to electricity. The gas price, specifically crude oil price, used to be synonymous with energy prices so any increase in oil price would mean a major hit to cost-of-living increases.
Also medical supplies, including masks, because COVID is Joever.
Edit to add: There is necessarily a lag between tariff imposition and indigenous production, and we’re left to fill that gap with our own wallets individually. Worse, the prices will almost definitely never come back down as they might in theory, because this is late-stage capitalism.
What a bell-end. Maybe instead of tariffs the US should begin vesting in education, job training, and research into these sectors so it can compete instead of trying to hobble the competition in the domestic market. This is just protectionism by a different name
Steel I get. That's an environmental issue since US creation is way more carbon friendly. However the rest makes no sense without an announcement in domestic investment that is pulled from currently used non-environmental budgets.
Here's some highlights from the sources I put in the original comment since you can't be asked to open them...
Clay, New York: Funding will support the construction of the first two fabs of a planned four fab “megafab” focused on leading-edge DRAM chip production. Each fab will have 600,000 square feet of cleanrooms, totaling 2.4 million square feet of cleanroom space across the four facilities—the largest amount of cleanroom space ever announced in the United States and the size of nearly 40 football fields.
Boise, Idaho: Funding will support the development of a high-volume manufacturing (HVM) fab, with approximately 600,000 square feet of cleanroom space focused on the production of leading-edge DRAM chips. The fab would be co-located with the company’s existing, leading-edge R&D facility to improve efficiency across its R&D and manufacturing operations, reducing lags in technology transfer and cutting time-to-market for leading-edge memory products.
at least $40 million in dedicated CHIPS funding for training and workforce development to ensure local communities have access to the jobs of the future.
the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) through its Loan Programs Office (LPO) today announced the closing of a $362 million loan to CelLink Corporation (CelLink) to help finance the construction of a domestic manufacturing facility that will produce components essential to electric vehicle (EV) assembly. Located in Georgetown, Texas, the facility will develop lighter and more efficient flexible circuit wiring harnesses—sets of wires and related equipment that relay information and carry electricity throughout vehicles. Once fully operational, the facility is expected to produce enough wiring harnesses to support the manufacture of approximately 2.7 million EVs per year and create 165 construction jobs and more than 1,200 permanent jobs.
The official source for the solar for all does have a broken link which is supposed to direct you here where it explain each of the 60 grants that were issued.
But my point is that none of this is being done efficiently. Instead, middlemen siphon money from the project to pad their pockets and stretch out the timelines for completion. I won't be surprised if some of these projects go over budget, over time, or need additional funding.
Wake me up when these projects complete. Then we can look at how much they really cost and how long it really took and how much they really produce.
The money does not go directly to production, that's the goal post. It goes through a dozen people's hands before the ground is ever broken on one of these projects, and every one of those hands takes their cut to pad their pockets. That was my point.
Wait we gave the Auto industry money for EVs and 50k SUVs were the result? Holy shit, that's right up there with giving 4 billion to the telecoms for no actual network expansion.
Pretty sure the steel tariff is a bad thing too. There are certain grades of steel that just aren't produced in the US. People threw a fit over it when trump did the same thing.
If hes going to do that he should light a fire under the domestics asses to get our own evs up to snuff. And market competitive. None of that whining how it cannot be done either
Why would the main benefactors and purchasers of this policy position (the Big 3) greenlight their destruction? This is US capitalist policy at play. They can't compete internationally and had to purchase their domestic protection.
Well the secret here is that the Big 3 don't physically control that policy. They can only bribe politicians and hope they stay bribed. And sometimes a protectionist policy looks like the bribe is working but it's just a prelude to a different planned move. Like trust busting.
There's a total of about 10 never-trump-republicans, and all of them have jobs at NYT, CNN, or MSNBC telling their audience that all the bad things Biden does are electorally smart because there's a bunch of moderate republican swing voters who will choose diet-fascism over the real thing.
This is the same tack they took in 2016, from Chuck Schumer going "For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin" to every pundit saying "suberban women are going to decide this election" and using that to explain why generally unpopular policies are electorally smart.
No one in the US will dive into major production of such things without a more guaranteed long term tariff. Not something that may go away within 5 years time. Also, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell the US will be a world leader in solar production. We might dominate the US market.
Don't worry about it! Some intrepid American entrepreneur will simply begin producing American EVs immediately.
If modern politics has taught us anything, all you need to do is drop-kick the first domino and the Free Market will do exactly what you want it to do every time with zero follow-up. Society is completely linear like that.
I'm not an accelerationist, so no, it's not really an option. It's cool that you feel like you have the ability to just say "no", but I don't. I have to live here, and if Trump gets elected then there is a very high chance I might find myself in a concentration camp before the end of his term, assuming he doesn't find a way to abolish elections entirely.
So no, I don't really have an option to just shove my thumb up my ass and refuse to vote.
Edit: Sorry about the double post, Lemmy was being weird.
There's a very high chance I might find myself in a concentration camp before the end of Biden's next term.
All that's needed is for my red state to declare being trans to be a sex crime, the Supreme Court to decide 5-4 that it's constitutional, and then I'm off to a farm. Biden and his supporters would do literally nothing and just use my internment in a camp as a fundraising pitch.
Always have to vote for the furthest left that has a chance to win and hope enough others follow suit. Our system sucks, but the biggest thing holding us back is how far right the country currently is. Even though depressing, your attitude is currently our best shot and I appreciate that you're one of the seemingly few on this platform willing to voice it.
What, you think Trump is going to be different? Hell, you think there'll be another election if he gets elected? I hate Biden. He's done some good things, but he's been a complete piece of shit regarding Gaza, and putting tariffs on Chinese EVs and solar panels because they're "too cheap" is the icing on the cake. There are no good options, and not voting does literally nothing. If not voting actually changed anything, then we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with (a significant amount of the US doesn't vote).
The reason why voting "neither" in the primaries got Biden's attention was because it sent a message that said, "I want to vote for you (the Democrats), but I don't like any of the candidates". That message didn't come from the people who didn't vote, it came from the people who did vote, but chose to vote "neither".
Not voting during the general election doesn't send a message. They can't glean how many people would have voted for Democrats if they'd had a better candidate from the number of people who didn't vote. Those people could be Republicans who don't like the Republican options, they could be Democrats who don't like the Democrat options, they could be libertarians, communists, socialists, fascists, happy with either option or just straight-up lazy. They're not mind-readers, and again, if not voting actually did anything, then the US wouldn't be where we are now because a significant portion of the US does not vote.
Biden being elected may lead to more death in Gaza, and I don't like that. However, the alternative is Trump, which will result in more death in Gaza (likely the eradication of Gaza's remaining population), cutting aid to Ukraine, environmental destruction (paraphrasing: "we're gonna start drilling day one"), the complete destruction of civil rights, attacks against anyone opposing him, attempts to seize unconditional power (again, paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact quote: "I'm going to be a dictator on day one"), and more.
Biden sucks, but Trump is so unimaginably awful and destructive that I just can't see anyone arguing against Biden as arguing in good faith. Either you're an accelerationist who thinks Trump's destruction of America will lead to a new and better world, you're a Trump FUDdy, you're a Russian/Chinese bot, or you've drunk the accelerationist's koolaid without realizing what you're supporting. The fact that, after everything that has been said, you think that we'd still have a chance to vote again if Trump gets elected is... mind-boggling.
I'm envious of your privilege. The implication that you can unironically support non-voting is that you're privileged enough that you can weather the storm if Trump gets elected. I envy you. Not everyone has that kind of privilege.
Edit because I want to reiterate this to drive the point home: if not voting sent a message then we wouldn't be in this mess because a significant portion of the US does not vote.
Correct. If there were no tariffs, you could buy a chinese EV for cheap. In this case for so cheap that the domestic US/Non-Chinese market cannot compete.
So in order to protect these markets, the product needs to be made artificially more expensive with tariffs. This way, the domestic markets have a chance of competing.
However, this also isolates the country and provokes retaliation from the other side. This usually results in both sides sabotaging their trade relations with each other (for ex. with tariffs) which is called a trade war.
I would be surprised if China cares too much, there is the rest of the world that needs small cheap EVs and solar panels. But they must do something as response, that's diplomacy.
I also don't see the problem to put tariffs to protect domestic products, sometimes it is necessar, but prohibiting completely is not cool.
We have a number of subsidies for domestic EV production. That will all be a waste if China's subsidized EVs undercut the domestic market. This is consistent with a broader effort to boost domestic manufacturing. While at odds with efforts to promote the adoption of green technologies, the administration is trying to strike a balance between competing interests, in this instance balancing consumer access to green tech with job growth, domestic manufacturing, and less reliance on China for critical technologies.
As a grammar and language hobbyist, I'm interested in your spelling of hobbiest. Shouldn't such a word come up so often in your hobbyist communities that you know how to spell it by now?
Feels like someone living in Texas spelling it Texes.
Thank you for taking interest in the spelling in my post. My autocorrect kept changing things and I must have failed to properly proofread. I do, in fact, know how to spell the word. As a human, I am prone to errors from time to time. I apologize for this.
Since grammar and language are your hobby, I would suggest you spend less time online, as correcting the rampant errors in language and grammar must consume a great deal of your time. I would also like to point out that there are many people online for whom English is a second language.
You adipisci voluptas wut m8? Rerum omnis distinctio eos aliquid. Asperiores quis illo rem est. Rerum voluptatem ipsa assumenda eum eos est. Voluptas quaerat optio ab eos in eos. Error et et quidem consequatur saepe. Magnam ab et at velit voluptatem illum aliquam sapiente. Sapiente!!
I just find it odd such a basic blatant spelling mistake was made while this situation is unfolding and being astroturfed to hell.
You wouldn't think an astronomer would call themselves an astrologer by mistake -- much higher chance someone selling fake pretty glass to tourists would say their crystals are good for astronomy.
Since we're on the subject of spelling things out, I'm questioning the authenticity of the guy who spelled it hobbiest. He may have just made a spelling mistake, we all do it, but 1.) currently heavily astroturfed subject 2.) hobbyists use the word a lot.
The real question is, what percentage of the product that they export is purchased by Americans? Because if that percentage is really low, it turns this into performance politics. Especially the one-upping of Trump's economic war on China. The problem there of course being that it won't make any difference; Biden's never going to win over a Republican. What he needs to do is lean into the left harder so that he ensures a higher turnout. But he's not going to, he'd rather stay his old-ass course, and risk plunging our country into a tyrannical totalitarian nightmare. I mean a worse one than it already is. You should be worried more about inflation, women's rights, and not feeding weapons to Israel. But our country has an insane "Christian" hard-on for Israel so that's not going to happen.
And by inflation I'm referring to everyday household products and food, not the stock market. People don't care how good the stock market is doing when not only do they not have a direct stake in it, but even basics like food cost too goddamn much.
What an awful god damn tweet. Are the tariffs to combat Chinese governmental meddling? If so, great. If not then they’re protectionist stupidity that’s sure to draw a response. This tweet sure makes it sound like it’s the latter. sigh
We can’t let stopping climate change get in the way of capitalism!
That's protectionism, not capitalism.
Tomato, tomato. The free market is a myth, there is no part of the economy that goes without manipulation. Anytime business owners can’t directly manipulate the market themselves they bribe governments to do it on their behalf.
I don't think anyone is arguing that a pure free market exists.
Having a capitalist economy doesn't mean that you have a pure free market anyway.
Although there are libertarians that would like to have a free market like that, every capitalist economy has regulations in place in an attempt to prevent monopolies and/or businesses having too much power in one area.
That's no true Scotsman.
No, protectionism exists outside of capitalism and even somewhat goes against the idea of capitalism, especially the free market kind.
That's theoretical capitalism, in practice there is no free market.
That's no true Scotsman.
'preciate it
Bait or brain damage. Call it
Ooh, good point.
These go right against our goals to increase use of solar and EVs. ☹️
Really important for world emissions for the US specifically to transition to EVs too, considering it has the highest per capita road emissions in the world.
Most of that is because we truck everything and trains only get used for extreme bulk like coal
We can thank the US oil and auto industries (the same ones dictating these green energy tariffs to their political puppets), for that too.
The big pickup trucks and large SUVs dont help either.
Don't forget overloading them with hazardous materials, only to eventually inevitably crash and cause another social, economic, and climate disaster!
Most east Asian countries are fairly low down on the list. They have excellent public transport, the world's best high-speed rail networks, and a significant number of road vehicles are already electric.
China is mostly building rail to solve its transportation issues, so this is completely unsurprising.
China has a lot of capita. Most of them dont have cars.
Cope lol
EVs are expected to reach 45% marketshare in 2024 in CN. Also I guess you haven't seen their high speed rail network expand over the last decade (pressuring their car market in general). Then you have a lot of capita. So yes the numbers make sense.
It does sadly. On the flip side, China seems to be trying to capture car manufacturing markets by subsidizing their producers. This would probably be a bad thing in the future if allowed. Hopefully the US government does more work on making it easier to purchase electric cars in the US(specifically the price) while also reducing the need for driving.
What exactly is wrong with a country subsidizing green energy products? Not only that, but making them available cheaply to other countries?
The US Government doesn't want US automakers to lose market share so that they have plenty of manufacturing capacity that could be retooled to make weapons in case of war.
When a trillion dollars a year doesn't commit enough warcrimes :(
Makes sense. Also petro-profits.
The point of trade decisions, is to import products you don't have enough domestic production to cover the demand for.
We know that the US auto and oil industries have no sincere desire to build EVs anyway (or any green industry whatsoever), because they did their best to kill their domestic production of EVs in the 90s, and there's no US industry for solar panels.
This is all just part of the US's trade war with China, that is prioritizing the profits of its auto and oil industries over the wellbeing of the environment, and the desires of its citizens for electric vehicles.
it undermines any less subsidized green energy industry which can lead to monopolies in the long run.
They're oversaturating the market with low-quality products. This can be a significant problem when there are safety implications.
I'm sorry but this argument doesn't make sense. Don't you have safety rules in the US? If the Chinese cars aren't safe to drive nobody should be authorized to drive them in the first place. If they are safe, no need for tariffs then.
This decision has absolutely nothing to do with alleged poor manufacturing quality. It's protectionism, pure and simple.
Why can’t they just certify cars based on safety and ban unsafe ones instead of blanket ban the entire segment of them. It certainly helps the adoption of EV among masses.
This is what the NHTSA has done since its formation in 1970.
It sounds you’re still stuck in the 1990s. Where do our iPhones and other smartphones and our laptops come from? Where do many of the parts in our cars come from? What country has more high speed rail than every other combined? What country has its own space station?
The Chinese cars are probably much safer on the road then the huge pedestrian killing machines built by US manufacturers.
Truck SUV moment:
Also no US auto-manufacturer is going all in on EVs, they're all mostly building gas-guzzling oversized trucks and SUVs. US automakers intentionally killed EVs in the 90s, and hoped no other country would start building them.
Tesla? Rivian? Lucid? Faraday? Fisker?
To be clear, yes, of course I understand that those are all luxury brands, but that doesn't make your statement any less false.
No, the major auto manufacturers aren't going all-in on EVs, but that are all getting deeper every year. There's no reason to expect that progress to slow down, as they're all quite entrenched in the technology at this point.
Average new car cost is $55,821, and average cost of ownership is $12,182.
The American manufacturers do not want lower prices. Dealerships don't like electrics because there's less maintenance.
I mean, of course the explicitly EV-making startups are going to be all-in on EVs. The distinguishing feature that makes them not count compared to [established] US auto manufacturers isn't that their stuff is luxury, it's that they didn't exist before and have no previous internal-combustion product line to pivot away from.
What companies have gone all in on EV making that isn't a relatively new company/startup?
A US automotive reviewer goes to a Beijing EV expo, and compares the state of US and Chinese EV production.
While true, the cost differentials go much deeper, and they affect all products & services.
Michael Hudson: America’s Neoliberal Financialization Policy vs. China’s Industrial Socialism
I'd rather we ensure higher standards of safety and quality for our vehicles, which are already terrifying death machines, but the hit to solar is a real step backwards.
That's a cop out. Cars aren't getting registered without meeting safety requirements.
That's not how you ensure America leads the world in them. That's how you ensure corps feel safe not doing shit to innovate anymore. This is just another form of a bailout.
Didn't they do the same for Japanese goods back in the day? Not sure it helped the American automotive industry.
Yes- it's the United States
Doesn't China subsidize what they export on top of having cheap labor? In that case a free market argument cannot really be made. The innovation in the US or elsewhere would have to be extreme shifts to compete.
Interesting word choice. China wants to "dominate", the US wants to "lead".
You can't say the quiet part out loud.
I mean, of course there’s loaded language in all this. Are you also surprised at the language and rhetoric used by Chinese government and media sources when they talk about the US?
I don't tend to see that stuff, but I wouldn't be surprised.
these actions already admit defeat
Are iphones tariffed as well? It's also from China
Technically. However, the end product is sold by a US company, so from the gov. POV it is fine.
Banning chinese manufactured products would mean banning a huge portion of the domestic market.
So US companies will buy things those from China, slap a logo on it and sell American Made goods at a h huge markup
Technically yes. However, most of the time, they just outsource manufacturing. Research and developement is still usually done in house. Apple for example, wrote the software and designed the hardware for the iPhone but assembles it in China because of cost.
Wow, does that mean we are ramping up domestic production for these? No? Oh...
US EV companies are canceling production
Classic Ronco politics
The rest of the world will get cheaper solar panels and EVs, that's quite nice.
Cheap panels are tanking European competitors, but it's probably too late to intervene at this point. Can't compete with work camps and cheap slave labor.
Correct... using work camps and cheap slave labour was only acceptable when US companies shipped production to China and pocketed the profits... now that China is doing it directly, it's certainly a problem we all care about
It’s certainly a problem the US government cares about when dealing with a hostile nation (from the US perspective).
There are parts of the world not EU and US. They would all benefit from cheap panels.
But EU and US are not really important: https://www.statista.com/statistics/668749/regional-distribution-of-solar-pv-module-manufacturing/ they account only for few percent of solar photovoltaic module production.
You want Amerikkka to lead maybe subsidize EVs as well?
Why can't we all win? (Ide rather bus/rail and walkable cities)
The government does subsidize EVs.
Additionally even used EVs are subsidized.
Between federal and state tax credits, as well as utility company rebates, my folks just got over 5k back for a used Nissan leaf. They were able to trade in their old clunker, netting a profit of a few hundred dollars to upgrade to a practical used EV.
America can't compete with China and American corps cried for daddy.
The free market in action.
FTFY
The innovation will be bred any minute now
Oh we could but then the executive class would have to forgo their 8th Yacht.
so u cant because the "executive class" (capitalist they are called capitalist) control everything, u theoretically COULD if u had a revolution but u CANT.
Swiggity swooty the oil lobby is coming for your booty
Funds raised will be used to offset further increases in subsidies to the domestic oil industry
In all honesty they could use this tax and an extra oil tax to subsidise the shit out of solar and EVs
Yeah, except everyone has had it beaten into them - nobody fucks with gas prices.
Every news outlet in the country runs the same news segment practically daily - "Let's complain about gas prices". We've somehow made it the subject of basically nonstop discussion.
If people can afford to commute to office jobs in 5,000lb trucks the gas prices aren't high enough.
Every time someone brings up gas prices I'mma just be like: "you know where the cheapest gas prices are? Electricity."
I mean, there is a case for discussing gas prices since it's the price of mobile energy for everything from tractors to trucking to electricity. The gas price, specifically crude oil price, used to be synonymous with energy prices so any increase in oil price would mean a major hit to cost-of-living increases.
It's outdated as hell.
Heezul Schneezul, the future is diesel.
Disease-al
Also medical supplies, including masks, because COVID is Joever.
Edit to add: There is necessarily a lag between tariff imposition and indigenous production, and we’re left to fill that gap with our own wallets individually. Worse, the prices will almost definitely never come back down as they might in theory, because this is late-stage capitalism.
It'd be really funny if those raw milk drinkers started a bird flu pandemic during a medical PPE shortage 😂
We should just be buying solar panels as cheap as we can, as fast we can who gives a fuck if they "dominate" the net positive is worth it
This is the trumpiest shit ever.
What a bell-end. Maybe instead of tariffs the US should begin vesting in education, job training, and research into these sectors so it can compete instead of trying to hobble the competition in the domestic market. This is just protectionism by a different name
That takes too long, Ford wants money now
Steel I get. That's an environmental issue since US creation is way more carbon friendly. However the rest makes no sense without an announcement in domestic investment that is pulled from currently used non-environmental budgets.
They already put 6.1 billion into domestic silicon fabs this year and gave out a $362 million dollars loan to bolster domestic EV production while giving the solar industry 7 billion in grants.
And did that money go directly into production?
Or did it pad some folks pockets?
Here's some highlights from the sources I put in the original comment since you can't be asked to open them...
The official source for the solar for all does have a broken link which is supposed to direct you here where it explain each of the 60 grants that were issued.
To awnser your question, production.
It's cool how you just take them at their word.
But my point is that none of this is being done efficiently. Instead, middlemen siphon money from the project to pad their pockets and stretch out the timelines for completion. I won't be surprised if some of these projects go over budget, over time, or need additional funding.
Wake me up when these projects complete. Then we can look at how much they really cost and how long it really took and how much they really produce.
Love how you slide them goalposts around
The money does not go directly to production, that's the goal post. It goes through a dozen people's hands before the ground is ever broken on one of these projects, and every one of those hands takes their cut to pad their pockets. That was my point.
Located in texas isnt likely to sit well with baron von abbott and his henchmen
yes
Wait we gave the Auto industry money for EVs and 50k SUVs were the result? Holy shit, that's right up there with giving 4 billion to the telecoms for no actual network expansion.
This is helpful, thank you.
No nearly enough to fight the petroleum machine.
Pretty sure the steel tariff is a bad thing too. There are certain grades of steel that just aren't produced in the US. People threw a fit over it when trump did the same thing.
hell yea FUCK the environment lmao
Repeatedly stomping on my collection of rakes to own the commies
If hes going to do that he should light a fire under the domestics asses to get our own evs up to snuff. And market competitive. None of that whining how it cannot be done either
Yup if he's serious then the next move is to turn the Big 3 into the Big 6.
Why would the main benefactors and purchasers of this policy position (the Big 3) greenlight their destruction? This is US capitalist policy at play. They can't compete internationally and had to purchase their domestic protection.
Well the secret here is that the Big 3 don't physically control that policy. They can only bribe politicians and hope they stay bribed. And sometimes a protectionist policy looks like the bribe is working but it's just a prelude to a different planned move. Like trust busting.
Yes. Also, I'd rgue the solar panels are the bigger issue since EVs are a marginal improvement for the climate vs clean energy and biking/walking.
For every voter who wants a habitable planet, a cheap electric car, or to catch covid less we lose, we're gonna pick up two moderate republicans!
A) Moderate
B) republican
Pick one
That's the joke.
There's a total of about 10 never-trump-republicans, and all of them have jobs at NYT, CNN, or MSNBC telling their audience that all the bad things Biden does are electorally smart because there's a bunch of moderate republican swing voters who will choose diet-fascism over the real thing.
This is the same tack they took in 2016, from Chuck Schumer going "For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin" to every pundit saying "suberban women are going to decide this election" and using that to explain why generally unpopular policies are electorally smart.
He's making fun of Chuck Schumer "quote"
No one in the US will dive into major production of such things without a more guaranteed long term tariff. Not something that may go away within 5 years time. Also, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell the US will be a world leader in solar production. We might dominate the US market.
It's ok.. the consumer will ultimately pay that tariff.
Don't worry about it! Some intrepid American entrepreneur will simply begin producing American EVs immediately.
If modern politics has taught us anything, all you need to do is drop-kick the first domino and the Free Market will do exactly what you want it to do every time with zero follow-up. Society is completely linear like that.
Lmao yeah that's how tariffs work...
This dude really does not want to get reelected again. I hate that he's the only choice. What a piece of shit.
"No" is always an option.
I'm not an accelerationist, so no, it's not really an option. It's cool that you feel like you have the ability to just say "no", but I don't. I have to live here, and if Trump gets elected then there is a very high chance I might find myself in a concentration camp before the end of his term, assuming he doesn't find a way to abolish elections entirely.
So no, I don't really have an option to just shove my thumb up my ass and refuse to vote.
Edit: Sorry about the double post, Lemmy was being weird.
There's a very high chance I might find myself in a concentration camp before the end of Biden's next term.
All that's needed is for my red state to declare being trans to be a sex crime, the Supreme Court to decide 5-4 that it's constitutional, and then I'm off to a farm. Biden and his supporters would do literally nothing and just use my internment in a camp as a fundraising pitch.
Always have to vote for the furthest left that has a chance to win and hope enough others follow suit. Our system sucks, but the biggest thing holding us back is how far right the country currently is. Even though depressing, your attitude is currently our best shot and I appreciate that you're one of the seemingly few on this platform willing to voice it.
Support genocide of others to cover your own ass... increasing your own vulnerability in 4 years, because you fed the genocidal culture in DC.
Big brain moves /s
What, you think Trump is going to be different? Hell, you think there'll be another election if he gets elected? I hate Biden. He's done some good things, but he's been a complete piece of shit regarding Gaza, and putting tariffs on Chinese EVs and solar panels because they're "too cheap" is the icing on the cake. There are no good options, and not voting does literally nothing. If not voting actually changed anything, then we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with (a significant amount of the US doesn't vote).
The reason why voting "neither" in the primaries got Biden's attention was because it sent a message that said, "I want to vote for you (the Democrats), but I don't like any of the candidates". That message didn't come from the people who didn't vote, it came from the people who did vote, but chose to vote "neither".
Not voting during the general election doesn't send a message. They can't glean how many people would have voted for Democrats if they'd had a better candidate from the number of people who didn't vote. Those people could be Republicans who don't like the Republican options, they could be Democrats who don't like the Democrat options, they could be libertarians, communists, socialists, fascists, happy with either option or just straight-up lazy. They're not mind-readers, and again, if not voting actually did anything, then the US wouldn't be where we are now because a significant portion of the US does not vote.
Biden being elected may lead to more death in Gaza, and I don't like that. However, the alternative is Trump, which will result in more death in Gaza (likely the eradication of Gaza's remaining population), cutting aid to Ukraine, environmental destruction (paraphrasing: "we're gonna start drilling day one"), the complete destruction of civil rights, attacks against anyone opposing him, attempts to seize unconditional power (again, paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact quote: "I'm going to be a dictator on day one"), and more.
Biden sucks, but Trump is so unimaginably awful and destructive that I just can't see anyone arguing against Biden as arguing in good faith. Either you're an accelerationist who thinks Trump's destruction of America will lead to a new and better world, you're a Trump FUDdy, you're a Russian/Chinese bot, or you've drunk the accelerationist's koolaid without realizing what you're supporting. The fact that, after everything that has been said, you think that we'd still have a chance to vote again if Trump gets elected is... mind-boggling.
I'm envious of your privilege. The implication that you can unironically support non-voting is that you're privileged enough that you can weather the storm if Trump gets elected. I envy you. Not everyone has that kind of privilege.
Edit because I want to reiterate this to drive the point home: if not voting sent a message then we wouldn't be in this mess because a significant portion of the US does not vote.
Can someone explain to me how tariffs help us? Couldn’t I buy a Chinese EV cheaper if there were no tariffs.?
Correct. If there were no tariffs, you could buy a chinese EV for cheap. In this case for so cheap that the domestic US/Non-Chinese market cannot compete. So in order to protect these markets, the product needs to be made artificially more expensive with tariffs. This way, the domestic markets have a chance of competing.
However, this also isolates the country and provokes retaliation from the other side. This usually results in both sides sabotaging their trade relations with each other (for ex. with tariffs) which is called a trade war.
I would be surprised if China cares too much, there is the rest of the world that needs small cheap EVs and solar panels. But they must do something as response, that's diplomacy.
I also don't see the problem to put tariffs to protect domestic products, sometimes it is necessar, but prohibiting completely is not cool.
It doesn't help you.
It helps Elon.
Yeah. That was my biggest gripe actually 😆🫠
Yeah but they dont want you to buy Chinese EVs, this essentially pushes non-chinese EVs (so US-made or ones from Europe)
We have a number of subsidies for domestic EV production. That will all be a waste if China's subsidized EVs undercut the domestic market. This is consistent with a broader effort to boost domestic manufacturing. While at odds with efforts to promote the adoption of green technologies, the administration is trying to strike a balance between competing interests, in this instance balancing consumer access to green tech with job growth, domestic manufacturing, and less reliance on China for critical technologies.
As a hobbiest, I make things out of steel and aluminum. Can't wait to pay more.
As a grammar and language hobbyist, I'm interested in your spelling of hobbiest. Shouldn't such a word come up so often in your hobbyist communities that you know how to spell it by now?
Feels like someone living in Texas spelling it Texes.
As a logic and math hobbyist, I'm wondering how you came to the following conclusions...
a) That they participate in an online community OR b) that speaking (in an offline community) would somehow help them to know how to spell the word
AND
c) That the word "hobbyist" comes up often in these communities
Thank you for taking interest in the spelling in my post. My autocorrect kept changing things and I must have failed to properly proofread. I do, in fact, know how to spell the word. As a human, I am prone to errors from time to time. I apologize for this.
Since grammar and language are your hobby, I would suggest you spend less time online, as correcting the rampant errors in language and grammar must consume a great deal of your time. I would also like to point out that there are many people online for whom English is a second language.
You adipisci voluptas wut m8? Rerum omnis distinctio eos aliquid. Asperiores quis illo rem est. Rerum voluptatem ipsa assumenda eum eos est. Voluptas quaerat optio ab eos in eos. Error et et quidem consequatur saepe. Magnam ab et at velit voluptatem illum aliquam sapiente. Sapiente!!
So you agree words are real and spelling matters?
I just find it odd such a basic blatant spelling mistake was made while this situation is unfolding and being astroturfed to hell.
You wouldn't think an astronomer would call themselves an astrologer by mistake -- much higher chance someone selling fake pretty glass to tourists would say their crystals are good for astronomy.
Since we're on the subject of spelling things out, I'm questioning the authenticity of the guy who spelled it hobbiest. He may have just made a spelling mistake, we all do it, but 1.) currently heavily astroturfed subject 2.) hobbyists use the word a lot.
Romanes eunt domus. Et prescriptive grammarians can eunt the fuck domus, too.
Collcata verba sunt accuratius modulatiusque.
Man what a fucking idiot.
Trump can't campaign so Biden's doing his job for him.
So end H1B visas and refocus tax dollars on infrastructure and education you fucking prick.
I know for sure he's doing the infrastructure part, but I'm not paying close enough attention to say anything about the other two.
F. I'm trying to buy solar panels right now and China has some good ones.
The real question is, what percentage of the product that they export is purchased by Americans? Because if that percentage is really low, it turns this into performance politics. Especially the one-upping of Trump's economic war on China. The problem there of course being that it won't make any difference; Biden's never going to win over a Republican. What he needs to do is lean into the left harder so that he ensures a higher turnout. But he's not going to, he'd rather stay his old-ass course, and risk plunging our country into a tyrannical totalitarian nightmare. I mean a worse one than it already is. You should be worried more about inflation, women's rights, and not feeding weapons to Israel. But our country has an insane "Christian" hard-on for Israel so that's not going to happen.
And by inflation I'm referring to everyday household products and food, not the stock market. People don't care how good the stock market is doing when not only do they not have a direct stake in it, but even basics like food cost too goddamn much.
If you go into any USonian home, probably at least 60% of the products are made in China.
3 out of the 5 things have nothing to do with green energy.
Let's get a tarrif on major grocery and supply chain vendors at home first.
Just what I need, a larger grocery bill
This is what we needed to encourage the fascist Biden vote!
It will do wonders!
What an awful god damn tweet. Are the tariffs to combat Chinese governmental meddling? If so, great. If not then they’re protectionist stupidity that’s sure to draw a response. This tweet sure makes it sound like it’s the latter. sigh
Yeah, screw Biden at this point. He's basically 2016 Trump on so many policies. 2024 Trump is going to be worse but so what.
You might want to spend a wee bit more time educating yourself on these issues. Because you are so horribly wrong it's not even funny.
Not at all. Stop being brainwashed. Voted for him in the past. Won't again.