Hamas tells negotiators it doesn’t have 40 Israeli hostages needed for first round of ceasefire | CNN
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/10/middleeast/hamas-israel-hostages-ceasefire-talks-intl/index.htmlOpen linkView original on lemmy.world106
Comments90https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/10/middleeast/hamas-israel-hostages-ceasefire-talks-intl/index.htmlOpen linkView original on lemmy.world
Article is way better than the headline...
Hamas just hasn't been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.
Most hostages are combatants, and that doesn't meet the details for this requirement
So...
Hamas gets hostages returned that are women, children, and elderly, all noncombatants.
They get them back into Gaza where there's no food and no zones safe from Israeli attacks...
And Israeli gets back some of their boots on the ground war criminals so they can go right back to genocide?
If you were trying to be sarcastic use a "/s", otherwise people will think that was a serious comment.
And I was explaining how combatants and noncombatants are different...
One are victims of genocide, and the others are literally actively committing a genocide.
...
The "later phases" is exchanging combatants...
And they're willing to do that. Just not for noncombatants.
It's very simple, I'm not sure how to put any plainer.
You are assuming they are treated well in israeli prison. Israel heavily tortures hostages, frequently to death but also heavy bodily harm
Israel also starves their hostages. Being in Gaza is an upgrade to that.
Can you please cite in your article the relevant section that supports:
Because I was not able to find such a statement, and I'm trying to parse editorialization from fact on this very serious subject.
Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests
This similarly does not support your original assertion, from your original article:
Is there a reason you choose to embellish (and directly substitute words in the article for your own personal opinion) instead of accurately convey what the article says?
Me: israel tortures prisoners to death
You: no israel tortures prisoners to death
???
Totally untrue
Where are Hamas getting them?
Like, do you think this is an actual war where both sides attack each other's territories?
Seriously, at what point in the last six months would Hamas have captured non combatants?
But not according to anyone else's...
Israel has been flattening the entire area, they can't keep track of how many they kill, regardless of what country they're from.
But the article OP linked even says there aren't 40 noncombatants left....
I'm not sure what you're not understanding about this.
Or why you're listening to Israel still
Therein lies the problem.
The hostages were taken on October 7th of last year. Try to keepup.
And they've been repeatedly bombed for the past several months, try to keep up.
I have...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_prisoner_exchange
Again, your own article says CNN knows there aren't 40 hostages left that aren't noncombatants.
Israel keeps taking civilians hostage, so they have enough.
Since 10/7 the only Israelis Hamas interacts with are combatants. They literally don't have enough hostages left for this deal, which is likely how the deal arrived at that number.
It's something that literally is impossible to comply with, and Israel gets to blame Hamas.
This ain't complicated bub. Your own source agrees with me.
You should read it
Oh, it's true alright:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015
You only addressed half the statement. They are not saying that Israel doesn't take civilian hostages. They are questioning the claim that Hamas doesn't take civilian hostages. Follow the thread please.
Is there any evidence that Hamas has taken new hostages since October 7th? Because AFAIK there isn't.
A temporal attribute has not been included in this statement:
But you have added a temporal qualifier:
I think maybe that's where the disconnect is? I don't know. I don't know who or what you're arguing against.
The temporal qualifier is inherent in the grammar of the statement. Perhaps you didn't notice it?
In English, the present perfect continuous has/hasn't been taking implies a frequent and repeated action since a fixed time in the past - in this case, presumably, the start of the current conflict until now.
Since Hamas only took civilian hostages on one occasion, i.e. October 7th, and not again since, it is not true to say that Hamas "has been taking hostages". They took hostages. Once.
Israel, on the other hand, have been taking Palestinian civilians captive, repeatedly, since October 7th. That's the difference.
You're inferring the start point for the perfect continuous and assigning Oct 7; I'm assigning the start point to be the overall conflict in a broader context. I'm being charitable. I might be wrong, but I can't read OPs mind so I'm being charitable.
No you are changing the statement yourself. The statement is
Israel is widely kidnapping mostly innocent civilians whereas Hamas very much targeted military for kidnapping.
This is as obvious as the lower than 2/3 civilian casualty rate for Hamas whereas israel has a far higher civilian casualty rate.
Sources? Do I even want your sources at this point....last time I asked for evidence you gave me a verbal statement by the prime minister and that was good enough in your book. You really don't need much convincing when the evidence aligns with your bias, do you?
You mean Israel went into negotiations making unreasonable demands? Like almost every other time?
Oh come on. What kind of "return elderly people, pregnant women and other feeble hostages" is unreasonable demand? What would be reasonable demand? Keep them forever. Abuse them?
Why do you think those people would have survived six months of sustained bombing?
If they cared about negotiations, they would have kept them save. Which apparently they don't. Now they don't have any leverage.
Kept them safe how? Do they have force fields?
They kept themselves safe. There are bunch of tunnels or they could say here's a hostage here don't bomb this place.
If Hamas is able to keep themselves save from six months of Israeli bombing, maybe Israel shouldn't have spent six months bombing Gaza and killing over 10,000 children.
So based on your own claims, Israel is far better at killing innocent people than Hamas could even hope to be.
Maybe they shouldn't have kidnapped and killed people in the first place if they didn't want retribution.
What are the demands of each side? Can we lay them out and compare? Or do we know already that Hamas demands are reasonable? Do we always have to take sides? I personally want what's best for the Palestinian people so I want a ceasefire and return to negotiations. But this partisan flailing isn't helping the cause. Unless of course we're ok sacrificing more Palestinians? I don't get it.
Do sides have to be taken in a negotiation?
I would say yes. That's the whole point of a negotiation.
Should we grant:
I just don't understand why you're calling out only one party?
Because one party is demanding something the other party says it doesn't have.
Problem I think is why they don't have them now if they had them at some point.
Unless they never had them to begin with; having people and now no longer having them points to killing them which, surprise, hurts negotiation.
Who knows though, Israel might of taken them for innocent Palestinians and did it to themselves :(
Unless it wasn't Hamas who killed them.
The IDF didn't put a magical force field around the hostages as they bombed the shit out of Gaza.
The IDF has already admitted to "mistakenly" killing hostages that had been released- https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/16/israeli-hostages-mistakenly-killed-in-gaza-were-had-a-white-flag-official
And those were the ones they were caught killing or even were aware themselves that were killed. How many more were killed?
Yeah, I'm not ruling out Israel unknowingly killing their own (or even knowingly I guess) but I think regardless if an explanation (that's true) by either was possible, it'd be better.
THEY SHOULD HAVE, but they said they don't. Some 130 people are still missing. That means they killed hostages. Plain and simple. The request was to return first 40 hostages which should include all the women, elderly and others in a need of care, then fill whatever is left up to 40 with men. Then negotiations can start.
So, there are no hostages anymore. They either raped them to death or tortured them to death. And now Israel's retribution will get even worse.
Or Israel killed them. Why isn't that a possibility? Did a force field go up around them while Israel bombed all the places they claimed were Hamas locations?
That's bullshit excuse. If I hold you in front of oncoming bullets, I killed you, not whoever shot the bullets. If you jump in front of a car you killed yourself. Driver didn't kill you.
We can. Hamas has been very clear. End the blockade. Remove troops from West Bank. Recognize a Palestinian state. Allow Palestinian refugees to return. Release Palestinians being held without charge. (hostages but with a nicer veneer)
Israel wants their people back.
Those are the two positions.
So from the "River to the sea" has been taken out of Hamas charter? What does their charter state as their key objective now?
The 1969 borders. They still vote to resist Israel but they did actually change the charter in 2018.
Theyre dead, Jim
Okay how about 25? 24 and 3 fingers?...wrong cartel! Sinaloa guys, we'll get back to you later... At! I meant at you later. Sorry I'm new at this negotiation shit. Let's start over.
Okay, my name is...is....hmmm.... Pedro. What's your name? And you said Carlos does have the two testicles? Okay okay. Look let's not do someth....he has only one testicle not? Not his testicle. Oh man, poor kid, listen guy, I was just pooping and I picked up the phone without checking, I think you got the wrong number. Yeah I'm real sorry. I hope you find Carlo's friends, I really do.
Racism, everybody.
Don't pepe pecas pica papas me! I can say that with my ass backwards any day. And if your up for it I can anti tarabitatongulate any plank that your best tarabitatongular has entarabintantigulated. This is something that only a brown person from my colloquial origins would understand. So if you would please allow me to make fun of my own people in a language other than my original one, I would admire you deeply.
Y so no, pus no. Pero si si si. Ni miercoles!
What is amazing is that there are some that are ever ready to quote numbers given by Hamas, when they can't even track 40 hostages.
So...
Even the source of the article you posted is wrong?
Did you even read the article or just the headline?
The look of a poker player that ran out of chips....
They've found bodies of hostages all the time. One just yesterday. I suppose you could do some math to estimate probability of who is living. Only Hamas would know,except they claim not to.
They're saying less than 40...
Which is what CNN is saying...
The only one saying more is Israel, and how the hell would they know when they've spent 6 months flattening everything?
Do you think they know when they blow up and kill Israelis?
Like, you think they're going in and sorting thru the rubble to check?
There's no logical reason Israel would have any idea.
Like, you've been saying we need to listen to Israel's numbers. You're still saying we have to...
And then this:
There's no logical consistency, you're claiming two opposite things at the same time
Hamas made a statement like 1-2 months ago that said roughly said "If israel knew where the hostages were they would kill them all"
You are endorsing israel doing exactly that.
Ahh, yes, they aren't even hostages. hamas took them so they would be protected from Israel.
So would the argument then be if Hamas kidnaps all Israelis, Israelis would be better protected?
The argument is that israel is intentionally killing kidnapped israelis to remove leverage Hamas has over israel. And that he was endorsing israel doing that.
Hamas kidnapping all israelis would mean the IDF (somehow not being kidnapped) would try to kill all israels. Not sure how that makes them safer.
Okay. I just had never heard it suggested that it is actually Hamas keeping Israelis safe. Wanted to clarify I wasn't misunderstanding.
There are supposed to be 136 hostages in Gaza.
They are probably still there, check hospitals, community centres, school, emergency camps... you will probably find their corpses under all the rubble from Israeli fired American and British missiles.
The criteria are for women and the elderly to be released. The majority of the remaining hostages are men of military age (as Israel has mandatory conscription, they are military personnel by definition).
So what happened to the old women and children? Sold into slavery? Dead?
Probably dead or unknown. Terror organizations aren't usually known for their record keeping.
And even when they try their best, it’s hard when a larger terrorist organization is actively trying to genocide them and bomb everything they know to rubble.
However then umber of dead they provide is constantly quoted.
...
According to who?
The IDF?
Why would anyone be listening to them at this point? They lie constantly about damn near everything...
I mean this is publicly verifiable information in terms of who went missing on Oct. 7th. It would be foolish to lie about it.
And we all know Israel never makes foolish lies.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/09/middleeast/gaza-food-aid-convoy-deaths-eyewitness-intl-investigation-cmd/index.html
https://abcnews.go.com/International/world-central-kitchen-attack-on-aid-workers-gaza/story?id=108814150
https://time.com/6176045/israel-response-shireen-abu-akleh-killing/
I mean IDF has been dishonest certainly but this is something that has been thoroughly examined and vetted by this point. We would know if there were doubts about the number.
These events are also different because they are singular points in time—the lies serve to diffuse criticism until the public attention has faded so that less invested members of the public never learn the truth. So I’m not sure I agree they are foolish unfortunately, though there is of course a long term risk with using this tactic too often.
The hostage count is an ongoing thing. If they continued to stand by numbers that people are commonly discussing and have learned are incorrect, it would be much more embarrassing for them than the above incidents which are mostly forgotten by the general public, excepting perhaps the most recent one which did seem to break through a bit more.
No. Let's listen to Hamas and Qatar funded AlJazeera. They totally never lie to suit their own needs.
Well, OP linked a CNN article. And CNN says there aren't 40 noncombatant hostages...
So, no....
We don't have to just listen to Hamas or Israel.
Because Israel hasn't been able to kill every international journalist that investigated their genocide. They've killed a shit ton, but not all of them.
Demand was 40 hostages, but primarily non-combatant. Then fill the rest with the rest.
At least your honest about what kind of "negotiations" these are.
Israel made a demand that couldnt be followed, so they can say Hamas won't agree to cease fire.
You are really stretching logic here in order to justify your hate towards Israel or approval towards Hamas. Hamas kidnaps 100s of people, Israel wants 40 back and you say they are making unreasonable demands that can't be followed? What should they say... naah keep em for raping and playing? Consider it a token of good faith?
So are you saying this article you posted contains misinformation? Or did you not read it?
At one point both Israel and Hamas seemed to agree that there were approximately
200250 hostages.https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-do-we-now-about-hamas-hostages-2023-10-19/
Edit:
Wikipedia cites a slightly higher numberhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_prisoner_exchange
Edit 2: my mistake, they corroborate their numbers (250)