"You're gay if you don't like football", "you're wasting your life if you don't want to get married and have kids", "you'll never find a husband if you don't wear makeup", "you're not a real man if you cry". The patriarchy is sexist to everyone, and that's why everyone should give a shit.
It's like when you talk to a small business owner. They'll talk about how the banks and big companies screw them left and right, but they'll also tell you that they think they'll end up Bill Gates. Same delusion
And my fiancé did weep a little during "the speech".
That movie hit hard. I'd love a man version of that speech, but it would have been wildly out-of-place, and I wouldn't have wanted America Ferrera's rant to have been watered down by a "both sides" thing.
"What are your thoughts on the "Barbie" movie?", would be a great dating site question for any of us. Weed out the assholes in a hurry.
I'd love a man version of that speech, but it would have been wildly out-of-place
I felt it applied to men in a lot of ways still. Sure, a lot of details, I had to adjust in my head, but I didn't feel like I need a man version to get it. There were some woman specific things in there and a whole lot of human things.
I find it interesting that, under a post on how men and, even more often, women, ignore men's mental health, you feel the need to specify that it's the men that lack understanding of the problem.
In conversations I've had around this I've found that women get this immediately, even if they hadn't considered it before. But men tend to be very resistant to the idea.
I hate this way of putting it, especially because it puts the blame on a single gender. It's not JUST men who shoehorn people into gender roles, we all do it.
It's off putting to me and I tend to dismiss the entire thing because it basically says that men being bad also hurts men. Had it said that men also are victims of gender roles I would immediately agree, and I can't imagine that I'm the only one who feels this way.
That's why it's so important to specify that men are victims of patriarchy, not victims of men. Everyone, regardless of gender, has an environmental tendency to reinforce the societal structure that we label "Patriarchy", as you say (and I/many agree), but there's far more to it than the idea of "men first women second". The idea behind the phrase is not "everyone vs. men" but rather "everyone vs. harmful but deeply engrained social construct".
Then why use the label "Patriarchy"? It has a very specific meaning that I don't feel applies to many western societies and definitely not to the sociatal structure and norms that we happen to live in, regardless of who is in charge. I think we agree on everything but the term.
Because it still puts men on top in most ways, even while it hurts them too.
And it definitely applies to all western societies.
You can see it in this very story. "Men are strong, they don't need help. Women are weak and emotional, that's why they need support." Yeah, it's devastating for men in this situation, but it's the same logic which makes people say men are natural leaders or whatever.
Don't forget that leadership is not a cakewalk either; it comes with responsibility and sacrifice. It is a burden as are most 'advantages' that men 'enjoy'.
In a just world it would be, but the consequence of being labelled and perceived as a "natural leader" is that one can get away with shirking their responsibility, avoiding sacrifice, and abusing their position without much repercussion.
The Patriarchs in question does not refer to all men. It specifically calls out the culture of the "elders"and those who have had ample opportunity to become established influences through the system. Those who subscribe to old fashioned beliefs and those at the top of the power structures that benefit from their compliance from younger, poorer generations. Emotionally distant men and limiting variability within the group makes the entire demographic more easily exploitable. A lot of roles in the family and society exist for men outside the title of "patriarch" but patriarchs specifically use their role to self legitimize their power over other people and make everyone in some way subservient.
It's kind of a shorthand for "old fashioned" conservative systems of organization that prime men to be "leaders in embryo". The gendered component is still valid because it is still a dominant model that is marbled with minor subversions of it. Women and non-standard men may have changed their place in the family but even when they reach the top they have to make themselves non-threatening to the cohort of established powers and play by their rules to succeed.
As a father who is very involved in my kids’ life, I feel this frequently. At the start of each school year I submit my contact info as the primary contact info and yet sometimes emails will circulate among the class moms anyway. Or I’ll get a text from another kid’s mom asking for my wife’s number so they can plan something.
When we started making friends with parents of my kid, all the moms in the group created a chat group which they still use to this day. The dads didn’t make one because that’s just not a thing you do, and I wasn’t invited to the moms group, even though I knew them at least as well as she did, and I am the extrovert and my wife is the introvert. So I frequently feel lonely and isolated (I also WFH) and my wife is socially overwhelmed.
Yes I could just buck the system and try to get the dads to have a group, or have my wife add me into the moms group, or similar things in other areas of life. But that’s the point: any time I do that I’ll be going against the grain.
I have struggled so hard with this. My child's school cannot seem to understand that I, the father, am the one who primarily takes care of my daughter. My wife and I have started to flat out refuse to give the school my wife's contact info, even as an "emergency contact", just to make them communicate with me. I did manage to make a bunch of faculty at her old school mad when I asked, publicly, why they felt the need to discriminate against me when trying to contact patents, and this had the unintended effect of making a bunch of other fathers in the group pop up and ask the same question. Now my daughter is old enough that she, herself, will call them out on it. Having a ten year old lose her shit and tell the teacher that she needs to contact the right parent is really funny, almost as funny as when they insisted on contacting my wife instead of me, again, to complain that my kid had yelled at them for not contacting me.
I deal with this also except my ex abandoned us to move states away. She will still get notifications via email or text that she forwarded to me because they have her information on file. They have her information because I was forced to provide divorce paperwork showing I had custody of the kids to enroll them in school. Wonder how many moms get asked for paperwork proving custody when they try enrolling their kids in school. It’s reduced over the last three years but the first couple were ridiculous. Finally have a mom of one kid and dad of another kid that recognize I’m a parent to my children. Everything is stupid though. Every doctors apt, school visit, dentist apt, hell even trips to the store. Some BS content like “where’s mom” or “oh you’re filling in today”. I’m so sick of it. I cope by telling myself that at least it would be worse if the love of my life died horrifically instead of going bananas and abandoning us and I had to deal with this shit. At some point I’m worried I’ll snap at people but I never want to say anything negative about her around the kids.
Very similar. With our work schedules I end up spending more time with the kids than Mom does. My commute is much shorter and I can work from home a day or so a week. I feel like there is this whole network I am freezed out of.
My husband has had virtually no emotional support from anyone, so much so that he doesn't understand how to communicate any of his feelings.
"How do you feel?"
"I don't know"
"Can I do something to help?"
"I don't know"
I definitely don't ignore his mental health but his lack of communication drives me up the pole. Often I have to just walk away out of frustration. I wish I understood how to get through to him without it making me want to bash my own skull against the wall. I think a big part of it is that he doesn't want to admit that he has any emotions at all
"How do you feel?" "I don't know" "Can I do something to help?" "I don't know"
Yeah. That's real fun isn't it? And I really don't know. I'm luckier than most men, in that I have an understanding wife who doesn't use my emotions against me.
My husband is usually functional, but when things go wrong he crawls up inside himself and just doesn't wanna come out. I deal with problems by facing them head-on, and he deals with them by pretending they don't exist. Obviously that creates conflict (which then doesn't help either of us. It's extremely frustrating to know there is a problem but not know what that problem is)
He's told me that he'll go to therapy. I'm hoping that a third party will be able to help him unravel why he doesn't know how he's feeling, and how to communicate his needs
I am like that too. When I go over my limits, my tendency is to isolate myself.
I am better now, but I've been with a psychotherapist since 2020 and I am a lot better now at identifying my emotions and not isolate myself.
For me what worked was learning to identify my emotions. My first reaction to pretty much any negative emotion is anger and I don't think that will change. However, I've learned to identify the emotion after the anger and then I speak it out. Sometimes, just a small statement to myself (" I acknowledge this emotion X") and sometimes, it leads to a long thinking about the situation that caused the emotion and how that made me feel.
So to help your other half, helping him identify the emotion after the anger would be the first step.
I concur, but after 3 years of me trying to help him identify what he's feeling, a third party has to get involved. The problem is that I get frustrated and that doesn't help anyone. He absolutely needs someone neutral to guide him. It can't be me
I suspect autism with him. He's an Engineer, so he has a lot of Braun power but I've had to teach him to greet me, say please and thank you, and introduce me to people I haven't met. He literally left me in his friends doorway when we were dating. (It was a party and he opened the door, walked in and started hanging out with their 3year old while I stood there dumbfounded until I started introducing myself as his girlfriend. Yes, we broke up over it, but we figured it out and now we're married)
Maybe this could help him? It's from a peer counselor who deals a lot with these types of problems, usually with fairly nerdy guys, many of them on the spectrum.
I think it's sadly one of those things that people don't understand until it happens to them. They'll leave other men to their private hells and when it's their turn they wonder why everyone has abandoned them like they did other men so many times before.
"Hanging on in quiet desperation...". Huh. That lyric always hit home, didn't know why. LOL, I'm not even English!
We have all learned through experience to shut the fuck up. I've dated, a lot in the past 35-years of adulthood. Know what happens when a woman sees you cry? Dumped. Every. Damned. Time. And none of them ever expressed that it was a problem. But after enough experience, even my dumb ass can draw a cause -> effect line. And some asshole will try to be kind and say, "She wasn't a good person anyway!" Whatever. I still got dumped, over and over again. STFU, both of us.
Hell, I'm getting married next week. Third time's a charm! Seriously, no woman has ever loved me so deeply. No woman has ever treated me so finely. I have never felt so comfortable, and more importantly, secure with a woman. It's all a bit hard to get my head around, honestly struggling to internalize it. But read on...
Last night I tried to tell her how much cracking stress I'm under this month.
Thanksgiving week, I'm getting my young children (8 and 10), for the first time in 4 fucking years. I'm scared to fucking death.
My company just did a re-org. A welcome change to be sure! But I got a new boss in 2-days, and while I love him to death, and many people clamored to join his team, he's going to be challenging to sync with. It's next door to starting a whole new job.
I'm getting married on Black Friday.
"Oh! You are having second thoughts about marrying me?" (Her tone was "scared shitless", not "antagonistic".)
See what I mean guys? I should have just sucked it up. All I did was hurt her and gained nothing for my own mental health.
We gain nothing, and stand to lose everything, by showing weakness to our women. It's not their fault and I'm not condemning them. They're every bit the primates we are.
EDIT: She just came home from work and her first words were, "Are you still scared?" Damn what a woman. And how so very nice to be wrong this time.
I knew he was the one when my husband (then boyfriend) cried in the theater when (spoiler alert) ET died. I wish more women had empathy for men's unique struggles, but some of us do exist.
After his best friend moved away, my husband gradually settled into this dynamic where I was his only emotional support. Meanwhile I actively nurtured friendships with several women in my life. When he died, I had a network of people checking on me. I shudder to think how he would have fared if the situation were reversed.
Many friends and family asked me how they could help. I always replied that I wanted them to include my then-21-year-old son in their family plans occasionally, especially those who could provide a male role model. I asked male friends and relatives to check in on him occasionally and encourage him as he struggled through a deep depression to finish his degree. Only one person bothered. I am still angry about this.
We all need to be the change we want to see. Women need to be more aware and more accepting of men's emotions. Men need to work harder at forming and maintaining deep friendships. Look around and notice men in your circle who are struggling. Ask yourself how you can reach out to them.
Society is doing a crap job at creating ways for men to get support. So stop waiting for that to happen and do it yourself.
It sounds like you have enough self knowledge to begin to connect with your emotions. I suggest you tune your soon-to-be wife into this process, it sounds like she will be understanding when you get on the same page. Best of luck!
It's true though. The patriarchy has perpetuated the idea that men are strong and stoic and women are weak and emotional, so it falls to men to be the leaders. The idea that men also need protection and understanding runs counter to the concept of patriarchy, hence why it hurts men as well as women.
I think most of us understand how things are. The problem is the one's whose opinions matter don't give a fuck about changing anything because they're at the top of the hierarchy. They benefit from treating the rest of us like shit.
The ones at the top of the hierarchy aren't the ones instilling these toxic ideals of masculinity in to young men. Parents and peers are perpetuating this on a personal level.
Media perpetuates these ideals but they didn't originate with them. These ideals of masculinity have been around for hundreds of years before the modern media.
You say yourself here, "the media influences gender norms... at least as much as". Yeah, of course, it is a problem throughout all layers of society. Your earlier comment seemed to be saying that blame should be mostly with the 1%? I'm not sure what you are saying here.
Because if you don't adhere to these ideals you won't be successful in life. You won't get anywhere in your career. Women aren't going to date you. You'll be bullied and beaten down at every turn. Until something changes at the top these parents and peers are doing them a favor.
I've rejected these ideals my whole life. I was bullied as a kid but once I got out of school I found my people and never looked back. Never had a problem with women, the ones I dated found my emotional openness attractive. I'm successful in my professional life, tech lead at a financial software company.
I understand that different places have different degrees of pressures for this kind of thing, but what you're saying is a lie. You've been programmed by the system to believe it and it is probably making you miserable. And if you have kids, it'll make them miserable too. It doesn't have to be that way. I feel bad for you.
I might really misunderstand what patriarchy means in this context. But I'm using the definition "a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it".
I don't see how this is relevant to the "masculinity that gets taught to men", as this idea is also perpetuated by women, so I don't see how having a matriarchal or neutral society would fix this.
It seems to be more the result of the expectation that men need to be providers and protectors, which can be an expectation regardless of if the society is patriarchal or matriarchal or neither.
Sorry if I'm being ignorant. I'm just trying to understand better
To my mind the central mechanism for systemic control by the patriarchy is enforcement of gender roles. Men should be like this, women should be like that. Of course there will be ideas of masculinity in any society, patriarchal or not, but I think the aggressive enforcement of those roles and punishment for deviation from them is specifically an aspect of patriarchal systems.
On top of that, given the systematic exclusion of men from child rearing, re teaching elementary school, babysitting, or even parenting while male is all but criminalized in the Western world so nearly no men serve in those roles, I'm left to question who is responsible for "the masculinity that gets taught to men."
I'm saying it has the same energy as one of those insufferable Christians popping their heads into every conversation at all and saying "And that's why ya'll need Jesus^TM^."
Someone starts blabbering about the "patriarchy" in a discussion about men's issues, they're not contributing to the discussion. They don't genuinely care about the topic at hand. They've found an excuse to insert themselves into conversation.
Thanks for articulating that. I've always felt that the title for a phenomenon that oppresses people based on their gender shouldn't be named for one of them. It doesn't help anyone.
Men do understand it. We live through it every day. It's the women who need to understand it. It's the women who seem to think that men have great lives and everything is given to them. That's not the case at all.
Men might understand that they are unhappy, but I don't think most men blame that on the cultural ideals of masculity that are pushed on them their whole lives. If most men do understand that, then why do they struggle so much to change? The common messaging in men's mental health is usually around telling men that it is ok to have feelings, ok to talk about them, ok to cry and show emotions. If men understand that they are being victimised by other men (and themselves) and the social pressures to conform, why is it so difficult to get those messages through to them?
And I mean, the fact that you feel the need throw blame on women here (who are also victimised by the same system) seems like you're not actually blaming the patriarchy?
Yup, I was trying to think of a way to say this succinctly, but you've done it. It's sad that the majority of the thinking here is "y'all are doing this to yourselves". I think I've basically given up trying to argue this point with people already. Seems like a lost cause, and not something that will change in my lifetime.
ehhhh. often it comes out as "I'm unhappy because of women". it takes a special kind of introspection to really understand that you're participating in and probably reinforcing the system that you're suffering from.
Maybe it is just that I have had a long day, but please explain how the wealth devide is causing people to feel like they need to conform to toxic gender roles.
why? you know what the "patriarchy" actually is? like, what actually enacts the problematic things people say is caused by the patriarchy? it's the capitalist class for the most part.
Fundamentally? capitalist structures are nothing new, the only real difference is the justification to the selective ownership of capital, and that is more pervasive and more predictable than any patriarchal structures throughout history.
As a staunch feminist whose friends are all feminists, I have never heard a single one say—or even imply—anything like that. I very much know how extremely painful it is to have your feelings ignored and invalidated, so garbage like that is a dealbreaker.
If you're hearing this claim from people irl, they're saying it because they're shitty people... not because they call themselves "feminists".
Whereas plenty of guys have. I'd like to consider myself a feminist, but in my experience, I'm not welcome to the label, since it seems that progressive women are less compassionate than "nonpolitical" ones when it comes to relating to the issues of men. It's obviously not some issue with feminism, but we don't get to have popular movements and also ignore their ills. The vast majority of educated feminists agree with you. The vast majority of people in the streets calling themselves feminist seem entirely in it for themselves, and it's really tiresome when well-meaning feminists who aren't just exercising their trauma, the people that men like these most-need to have honest conversations with, insist that men don't know what happens to them.
Apparently, there are no misandrists, according to online discourse. Should I tell my memories they're wrong, that I should have just been more open-minded as a young child when more than one teacher preached that men are evil and stupid, and deserve subjugation? Or maybe, just like how misogynists are good at covering it up around their friends, so are the handful of misandrists who do exist?
People always seem shocked when I'm offended by terms like "I hate men".
Like it's somehow wrong of me to be offended by blatant misandry because I should just "know what they mean". I'm one of "the good ones, they don't mean me when they say it". Horseshit.
The blatant misandry that some people carry around like a badge of honor is kinda horrifying, if I’m being honest. It’s almost like they don’t even realize that what they’re doing and how they feel about billions of people is inherently wrong.
The Venn diagram between people who go like "please don't say 'I hate men', it hurts men too" and people who think that a 12 year old Palestinian kid deserved to die for not distancing themselves from Hamas enough before being drone striked is a solid circle.
Well no. I wouldn't put it like that but I think that statement is sexist, but obviously don't agree with the Palestinian kid one. So hello from outside the circle.
Of course the point is technically correct. Men are being hurt by the patriarchy in many diverse ways, in the same way that anti-Black racism hurts white people (for example, through loss of bargaining power in segregated workplaces), and transphobia hurts cis people (through vilifying all kinds of gender nonconforming expressions or even simply being a woman born with masculine looking physiology).
Not sure about the race example but yes exactly, thank you.
But articles like these are literally not written to help the men affected by it, they are written to police victims' language and turn around the blame for sexism on women once again.
This is your framing from your own personal perspective. You were originally responding to someone who surely isn't attempting to blame sexism on women. I'm sure you can see how a statement like "men are trash" is sexist. Just like feminists are correct to call out anyone saying "women are trash," men are totally within their rights to call this out and discuss how sexism in society affects them too. This post is the perfect example, men need to be able to step outside of this context where they are treated like monsters (or rapists, as you said) or like their needs are less important. Things would be better for everyone if men had the emotional support offered to women. Even the bad ones might not be so bad if they felt less devalued and disposable.
I'm sorry if you've been traumatized and I totally see how having your words scrutinised like this is annoying as shit if you're just looking to vent, but the whole point is that nobody should have to experience sexism. And that includes men. Treat others how you want to be treated and all that.
Like only one conversation about gender discrimination is permitted to happen at one time, and any time on one is time taken away from the other. It's not either men's issues or women's, it should be both.
The second poster’s story so clearly shows why a man’s partner being their only emotional support is devastating to both people in the relationship, yet this idea is still so insidiously pervasive in our society. No one wins.
I am mid thirties male and getting divorced. Making friends as an adult is so hard. Even going to things I like, doesn't guarantee I'll click with anyone there really.
especially if your taste is a little off the beaten path. I really like a ton of music that most would consider "weird" or "an acquired taste," which means other fans tend to be condescending and douchey (I may be pretentious, but I try to draw the line at condescending). Add to that the fact that I live in a tiny town and that many of my other hobbies attract either edge-lords (i.e. TTRPGs) or bros (i.e. snowboarding and baseball), and it can feel like it's not even worth trying to get to know people with shared interests.
Luckily I work in a job where I can have meaningful relationships with several of my coworkers even if we have very little in common beyond the work (and my extroverted wife and kids mean I get about all the interactions my introverted self can handle).
edit: Almost forgot to offer you some support! Keep trying OP, there are people worth knowing out there, and you may already know some of them. I've had really good luck getting in touch with some college friends and doing discord or zoom game nights where we chat and play online card games or TTRPG's once a month.
Hey Thanks I appreciate it! I am in a really good headspace for the first time in months so things are going well :)
I also work with a Therapist and Psychiatrist so I have support there as well
Have you gotten the advice to make friends with other divorced dads yet? 🥲/s
Jokes aside, I’m sorry for your circumstances. I’m in my 20s and it’s already hard to make friends now, I can’t imagine how it’ll be in the future. Ironically enough, I have met and made friends with quite a few 30-40 year old divorced dad’s through local ttRPG groups and FFXIV.
If it’s any encouragement, most of them say they have bounced back after the roughest period of their lives in getting divorced, and are happier now than pre-divorce. I can’t really say if what they’re saying is truth or a lie, but I wish you all the best, from one internet rando to another!
I am doing pretty good honestly, I am shy and have social anxiety so it has always been hard to make friends and trust people, but I am on good terms with my ex and I go to a Board Game group weekly so eventually ill find some friends there :)
I also still talk to friends made starting in HS and College so I may move back to the PNW at some point.
I moved here to be by Family which is nice, but I kind of hate the south.
How did "grieve different" become don't grieve at all? I'd be willing to bet that if men started grieving exactly like women, they still wouldn't get the support they need.
I remember something similar to this when my mom died 15 years ago. Lots of aunt's and friends reaching out to my sister to support her, traveling across the country to visit. I don't think I ever even got a note.
But I do have the thing where I probably wouldn't have cared either, if not for watching the support my sister got, it never would have occurred to me someone could do those things. And I know those people aren't my actual friends, so I really had zero expectations from them. I think it was more the insult on top of injury that bothered me. "Not only do we not care, but we're going to show you what we would be doing if we did care."
I never took this as a boy/girl thing though. I never fit in in life, still to this day. Just sorta expected.
Feeling entitled is the primary manifestation of envy. It is there for this exact purpose to orient yourself. So that you feel what you expect for equalization, so you dont feel "shit on". Whether you want it or not, this is envy.
The only reason you have to deny that is because of the negative connotations you associate with envy. You are deluding yourself.
I just watched Netflix anime 'Blue Eye Samurai.' Highly recommended. There's a scene where a princess is talking to the madam of a notorious bordello that specializes in the unusual. The madam goes on and on about how weak and fragile men are, how they need their egos massaged and need to feel supported.
After reading the post, I realized that this is a pretty common trope in fiction; sex workers talking about how most of their clients are only there because they need something that their jobs/families/communities deny them.
It's not just a thing in fiction either; I've seen plenty of threads and discussions over the years where real-life sex workers have essentially been saying the same thing. A lot of men are lonely.
Even in Japanese love hotels, I've heard it's common for men to book someone and just..cuddle for a while. Fall asleep being held. I don't have to live it to believe it.
I am seeing a lot of pushback--presumably from feminists--towards men that are expressing their experiences.
Guys it's okay to cry.
It's ok to have emotions.
It's ok to not be ok.
...But that has not been my experience.
Should it be? Yes, absolutely. But is it now? No. And unfortunately, in my experience, the women that are saying such things--almost always self-identifying feminists--are also often then ones that are unaccepting of any display of emotion in men that aren't coming from a place of strength. Men are e.g., expected to shrug off grief and depression and go back to work the day after a funeral. I shan't be too specific for risk of doxxing myself, but I've noted that I'm expected to muscle through physical pain and mental exhaustion, while none of my partners--either current or former--will hold themselves to the same standard that I am held to by them.
I cynically think that many self-identifying feminists don't want to abolish patriarchy, they just want to be able to benefit from it the same way that men do, without paying any of the costs for that benefit that men shoulder.
You do distinguish "self-identifying feminists" individuals who are "pushing back" from the ideology of feminism which is a worthwhile distinction. Because even with a boilerplate feminism 101 ideology around dismantling the patriarchy (and oppressive gender norms) recognizes it harms men as well, and advocates for a full appreciation and humanization of both men and women (and others) as complex sentient and emotional beings (see, equality). The first time I encountered anything about creating space for men to express emotions 15 years ago was through feminists. There's an entire field of men's health focused on mental health and dealing with masculinities in health contexts that were built on understandings of gender pioneered by feminist/critical academia.
The people "pushing back" against such emotional space and empathy are advocating for things more aligned with misandry rather than feminism.
Yes, I agree; I don't think that the people that have given me shit are actually living what they claim to believe. (...Which could also be hypocrisy.) I agree with the primary goals of feminism, if that primary goal is the dismantling of gendered power structures and gender norms so that people can be who they are rather than artificially--and negatively-constrained. OTOH, there are plenty of self-identified feminists that make broad generalizations about negative behavior, and apply that generalization to all men; I don't think that's helpful, unless your goal is to drive away potential allies such that you can feel justified in your rage.
The problem here is that the cases that I'm referring to are people saying that they're feminist without believing in or following core tenets of feminism. If I said, for instance, that I was a Christian, and that I believed in sacrificing animals in the temple for receiving forgiveness from sins, you would quite rightly say that I was not a Christian at all, because I didn't believe in or follow one of the primary tenets of Christianity (e.g., that Jesus dies for our sins, and that he fulfilled the law such that animal sacrifice was no longer necessary; I am not, for the record, Christian, nor do I believe in the idea of sin). Most feminists would argue that the primary tenet of feminism is tearing down gendered power structures; reinforcing gender stereotypes would therefore be not feminist.
Well no, I wasn't making a judgement of whether or not those people were "true feminists". I was making a judgement of their actions as being unaligned with the beliefs they claimed.
Humans do things that don't align with their core values all the time. It's called making a mistake or doing a bad thing. For example I'm staunchly anti-racism and try to check my actions. Doesn't mean I never do racist things. Nor does it mean if I do a racist thing, suddenly I'm no longer anti-racist forever and all time. Who tf knows where the line is, but probably it's around the point where you stop trying.
I've had similar experiences and when I've shared this previously all the response I got was "well date better people" as if I have a line of women waiting for their chance with me to select from.
I've lost a few relationships for exposing myself as a man with emotions. I don't plan to make that mistake again. It sucks, but until society changes I can't.
I have made quite different experiences, the people I felt safest to open were feminists.
Edit: I am sorry for your experience and didn't wanted to downplay it. However, as there are many answers in a similar direction as yours, i wanted to give an alternative experience.
Yes obviously. Actually, the people i was thinking about, were basically advocating for a fair society where every person can live ther own way. As women are currently structurally at disadvantage, this leads them to feminism.
I'm genuinely glad that you've had good experiences. It's possible that my age--I'm pretty sure I'm 20+ years older than the average Lemmy user--has made a difference in the interactions I've had. It's also possible that being neurodivergent has influenced my experiences. I truly don't know; I've only got a single test subject, n=1.
Ah, fuck it. We’re supposed to suffer in silence. We’re men. Man up, guys! Grit your teeth and bear it! (/s)
No one checks on me and that’s fine. I don’t really need people to check on me like I’m fragile. I fight my own battles; always have, always will. But for those who do need the more frequent check-ins, they should absolutely have them and should be able to ask for them without fear of ridicule or mockery.
The fact that, statistically speaking, no one cares about lonely folk is pretty discouraging, but you can’t force people to care. And even if you could, it wouldn’t be worthwhile or heartfelt. I sure as hell don’t want people to feel like they have to give a shit.
Stay strong, gents. It’s not weak to ask for help if you need it, even from internet strangers.
I remember when I was having a really rough time at work. My boss was pressuring me into leaving due to repeated underperformance, and I was working well into the night and all of my weekends, for a solid year and a half.
One day I came back from work fully dejected, feeling like a useless sack of dumb crap. My roommate asked me what was up and why we never hang out.
I told him that it was all just a bit too much. His reaction: "man up, or quit." The automatic lack of sympathy stunned me a little, though he might have been right that I really should have just quit. (Full story: I didn't, it did get better, and I even turned some of my detractors into friends, but it was a long road, and I definitely have an unhealthy relationship with work.)
Yesterday I had a comment from a woman friend along the line of "my daughter says you're always serious but nice. You should work on that". She didn't think of asking me why I am always serious...
Gotta love that even the very emotional "men have feelings and need support too" post ends with "treat them as wretched because they are wretched." Absolutely fucking tonedeaf to bring that type of negativity and derogatory generalization about men to this context. Big "not all men, but..." energy
Now you're reading it incorrectly: it is "treat [wretched people] as wretched because [wretched people] are wretched", not "treat [men] as wretched because [men] are wretched "
It's written incorrectly. "Only some men are sad. Don't treat all men as though they're sad." How insightful and almost converse of the point, which is, "Gender doesn't determine sensitivity or need."
Quote me a single part of that third post that is explicitly gender neutral rather than explicitly about men, without adding your own interpretation in brackets.
don't treat them as wretched just because they are men
Why would gender-neutral language be appropriate for this venue? It's a discussion of how men are treated, and people who parrot "men are scum" will automatically say "yeah but what about the bad men? are we just supposed to feel bad for them?". It's written for an audience that is not specifically you.
Gender neutral language would not be appropriate for this venue, but it would be required for the "it's about wretched people, not wretched men" interpretation in the comment I was replying to
It's less that the statement is false. But more that the statement is being made at all.
It's like writing a post about how people are too quick to dismiss women as being overemotional, and someone commenting on it by saying
I'm not saying you have to be nice to or defend hysterical women, but don't treat them as crazy just because they are women. Treat them as crazy because they are crazy.
It's just bringing up a stereotype that acts as an excuse to deny men empathy, in the same way as mine does to dismiss women.
I don't disagree with the general message of "Judge people for who they are", but the way it's written is tone death at best.
Maybe the circle they're in is just pretty misandrist so it needs saying. But it just seems unnecessary to me.
I can totally understand your point.
While trying to argue against it, i find myself agreeing even more to it.
Only one remark: As you say, the message is in any case not really appropriate for the preceding texts.
However, i still think the statement can be interpreted in a constructive view and i try to give the benefit of doubt.
This is a post talking about mother’s and father’s dead children and their imbalance of support, yet the third slide boils it down to “saying all men are disgusting pigs hurts my feelings.”
As a military veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan, this shit hits home. I've seen men break down and men who push it down until it is safe to let the feelings come out. Both are common, but for men you have to be able to keep the emotions in during a crisis situation. The men and women who are unable to do that pose risks of sudden suicide or uncontrollable behavior. Everyone has to let them out, that is extremely important.
A good friend of mine served in Afghanistan up until the very end. Never seemed to have any issues, was always cool and made the military seem like the most boring place on earth.
Flash forward to like a year ago and he's got PTSD triggered by seeing his own kid and can't sleep at night. No idea what happened, but yeah. It hits people.
I think it also has a lot to do with the influence of patiarchy and toxic masculinity on the grieving person.
If you managed to push back against some of society's expectations on men, know how to express more emotions than "angry" and "horny" and have shown vulnerability in the past, people will find it much easier to approach you.
On the other hand, if someone is working super hard to keep up their "manliness", you may realize that they're struggling, but you'll have reservations about tearing down the crumbling facade they're desparately trying to preserve.
My best friend of 15 years told me, when I had a rough patch, that he's there for me just reach out but unless I initiate he would treat any interaction as just a normal day.
Throughout the rough patch I choose not to speak of it and just treated our hang outs as a chance to get away. He choose to support me in the only way he knew how and the only way he was comfortable with. I was not comfortable and didn't know how to ask for more support. It's about 7 years from then and my parents still don't know, I just don't know how to ask for and engage with emotional support. I am completely weirded out by the concept of talking about my emotions and somebody else caring, it gives me a high level of anxiety.
TLDR: small male friend groups with limited experience providing or receiving emotional support are unlikely to provide explicit emotional support and there's a good chance if you're a man who needs it you don't know how to ask
It's 100% natural to not want to bring up personal/emotional shit as a guy, it's hardcoded into our DNA it seems.
I for one, don't because when I do get a rare chance to hang with the guys I'm not going to Buzzkill it, and neither do they like it's an unspoken man code. Our therapy is not talking it out like women do. Our therapy IS the hanging out/activities we do with our friends.
dude its because you guys were never taught how to express your emotion in a healthy and productive way. you probably don't even know where to start to express grief, just "I don't know" and "yeah I'm fine".
I would say start small, reach out to a trusted friend. and say that you would like to connect with people more genuinely. ask them about their days and take an actual interest in their wellness. ask them if they mind you sharing with them your feelings.
however, you might not have someone like that and making friends as adults is difficult so therapy is another method. make it clear that you're there to learn to express your emotions in a healthy way. and let the therapist guide you through them.
this process is not the easiest, you would need to learn to be vulnerable. and unlearn behaviors and tactics that you've grown accustomed to. but there is strength in acknowledging weaknesses. and I wish you the best.
I used to be all feminism when I was younger. Now I have two kids, I realized man do a sht ton of things without being recognized. It's always that "you are the man, you are supposed to do it" kind of thing. But when it's the other way around like when I asked the ladies what about their "women duties", it's all excuse and argument. It can suck balls being a responsible man.
Also, isn't that still under the umbrella of feminism? Feminism isn't "only women rule". Recognizing gender stereotypes affecting men's mental health sounds very much like a feminist thing.
Nowadays this seems to really be the case. Not only do "only women rule", it becomes "men suck" as well. See the recent "I hate all men" thing, as an example. There's some people who say it as a joke, but there are tons who actually believe it, and worse, act on it.
I'd say misandrism isn't really as "mainstream" as it used to be a few years ago. Tumblr used to be misandrism central and now you have posts like these. Even now when someone makes sexist comments about men, a lot of the time they happen to be TERFs, further demotivating new people from agreeing with them.
Yeah, currently you can still find misandrist groups, but they are either confined to twitter (either crazy twitter randos or influencers) or to niche communities that have isolated themselves from the world.
Other than that, there's still the ever present sexist jokes, stereotypes, etc against men that have ingrained themselves in society, but also seem to be dying out too as new generations grow. I wouldn't really consider it a rising problem unless there is some female Andrew Tate brainwashing teenagers on this side too.
Well, yes, but they're still not mutually exclusive. For example, I like apples but I also like other fruits as well. Me liking all fruits doesn't override my liking of apples.
I felt very much the same way when I was trying to figure out what was going on and what I believed. What I ultimately landed on is that feminism is really the only game in town when it comes to identifying what is actually happening. I found Bell Hooks' The Will To Change immensely useful in sorting it out -- it's not men vs women, it's the patriarchy vs all of us. One thing she wrote in that book that really resonated with me, and is basically what this post is about, is something along the lines of "the first act of violence that patriarchy demands of men is the destruction of their own emotional selves."
On average women do more things like give up careers for child rearing, still do tons of daily drudgery like family organizing, housework, Dr. appointments or school activities, cooking, etc. that all goes unrecognized. Dudes go out and do some yard work on a weekend and then hit the couch like they moved the world and should be waited upon for it. I’m a dad and keep my damn mouth shut about my work because my other half has to deal with all the shit when I’m gone at work.
So unless you’re directly acknowledging, lavishing praise and love on all the thankless stuff your wife is doing, you don’t have a leg to stand on.
E: huh. Didn’t know this was a red pill /c. Guess men are justified in complaining while we ignore women facing the same problem.
I’m a dad and keep my damn mouth shut about my work because my other half has to deal with all the shit when I’m gone at work
Well, that seems unhealthy as hell as well. This is the whole stoic to a fault bullshit for both partners now. I'd say vent to your partner and let your partner vent to you about your shitty days. Why live your life together but not be able to share your burdens? Just my two cents though.
Because when you leave work, you generally don't have to keep doing it when you get home. Being a stay at home parent tends to be from eyes open to eyes closed kind of gig. There's a lot of planning that goes into every day, and some of it needs to be planned ahead of time. Things like dinners, for example. Or the doctors appointments someone else mentioned. Or that laundry needs to get done, dishes out away, shit I still need to go shopping for food for the next week, and while I'm out I need to fill this prescription, and after that I need to make sure I'm on time to pick the kids up from school. And once we all get home I need to make sure that they do any assigned homework or practice their instrument. And FUCK I FORGOT TO PULL MEAT OUT OF THE FREEZER.
Being the stay at home parent is a LOT of work... And it never ends. Parents don't get weekends off or union mandated lunch breaks.
And when the other half gets home from work, a lot of times the expectation is that they won't have to do much at home.
A lot of times going to work means you get to focus on something else and don't have to make all the decisions. The mental load gets shifted. You're getting told what to do rather than having to plan it all out. It's not always the case, but I'd argue that the majority of times it is.
And that's one of the things that can be difficult about being a parent and in a relationship. Making sure you're doing what you can to help lighten the load on your other half. And hell .. I'd argue that should be the case regardless of your parental status. Always be trying to make life easier for each other. Don't ever let it be one way.
Maybe pre 2000s. NOwadays, man are very much involved in every aspect of the family if given the chance. I get most men still don't care but it's changing!
This might be a rare scenario. Both me and my wife work long hours. I am more in charge of the family, kids, chores, and fixing our house. She took everything for granted until one day I stopped doing chores that i have been nagging her for years to do so i can focus on issues surrounding the house(we own a large century old house) I am also the one on top of our kids health, diet, and education. Oh, I cook for the family. Sometimes I told her I am the MoM and the Dad and she's the friend. Friend can't raise friends.
Every time I confront the responsibility among us and that she should Mom up, my mom, her mom, and my wife starts accusing me for being difficult.
I had home cooked food on the table every night and I got no recognition from the 3 women in my life. When she made something once in a bluemoon, she got all the praise. My mom dare to gell me I gotta start cooking more for the family. Lmao. I can never win.
I'm gender queer, and am biologically male, but presented femininely and used she/her and a feminine name for 7 years or so.
The first time I experienced a good friend seeming like we only interact regularly because they're interested in dating/hooking up with me warped the way I relate to other people and really helped me understand why women are often so guarded against advances. Men and women deal with very different issues, but both are very real. It's nice to see people talking about the issues men face also. The way our society treats people on the basis of gender sucks dogshit :(
Men have it really hard. So hard, in fact, that people are increasingly turning towards the manosphere.
Rather than taking the terminally online Reddit mod approach of ostracizing MRA's, incels, MGTOW, red pillers, etc, we should be asking ourselves why people increasingly turn to these movements.
Andrew Tate is a symptom, not a cause of our societal ills, and that is hugely concerning. A deeply misogynistic sex trafficker should not be the role model that today's youth look up to.
Reddit acknowledges and allows subreddits like r/TheRedPill and r/FemaleDatingStrategy, it is a sponsor of hate and controversy because it allows more profit through sensationalist engagement and data collection.
Yeah I can't even say you're many suicide hotline dm's I've got for having a different opinion than someone. Ha ha, so funny, this site and its ilk (reddit) do their best to inflame, pass judgement and exacerbate.
I've got two trans guy friends and I often check in with them on my discord server to make sure they're doing okay. Unfortunately we have one person who is the total opposite of the rest of us. I mean the "the trans idea is pushed by big medicine" type. Other than their views, they get along well in the server and i accommodate everyone there. If one of the two trans guys wish for the other person to be blocked from their channel, I do that, so they have a place they can talk without being looked down upon.
There's. Ricky Gervais show called Derrick, every time I feel I need to just bawl my eyes out I binge that show, it hits you right in the emotions but in a way that makes you feel good.
I highly suggest anyone who feels like they're nothing or can't contribute to society or just anyone who enjoys a feel good mockumentary to give that show a burl
I wish my dad would reach out and talk with someone about issues. My sister died last year and he decided he didn't want to talk to his good friend about it because his friend still has two daughters and won't know what it is like.
He doesn't have anyone to talk to except for me and my mom, he won't do therapy to get through his guilt of surviving cancer while she didn't survive it which if he went to therapy he would realize is ridiculous to have because they were different cancers.
My mom at least is going through therapy which is helping her get through the loss.
Got 2 similar situations here these days, very hard times for my cousin. Try to be there as much as I can & unconditionally, of course. Hope it helps a little bit. On the other side of the spectrum: my father is slowly dying and the male part of his (numerous) new family is completely oblivious about talking about it or doing something different than "supporting the emotional women". That contrast is baffling. Guess what part lives out in the country and what part is more "city folks"...
You've gone off the deep end. What you have written above is so filled with rage I would take a break from this discussion.
I accept that you truly believe what you have written above, but it doesn't help people heal to play victim olympics. And it doesn't help anyone when you dismiss their expression of the systemic injustices they face.
Honestly, whete I am coming from is that I think you are more aware of the injustices that you face than injustices others face. It is tricky to really empathise with the 'other' or 'out' group.
Yes, this is an example of the kind of comment that someone might interpret to mean a devaulation of the problems they experience. Not really something that is helpful to have in a post about grief at a lost child.
Ranting about your issue on a post about someone else's issue isn't cool.
If you'd like to talk about policing victim's language, or even your friend who is struggling, that is fine. This is a big platform and there's space for that.
OP has a legit issue and a legit gripe. It's a shitty thing to try to make this thread about something else.
I dont think anyone here said the main issue is women, and if they said they're in the minoriy(I hope)
Patriarchy created many issues for both women and men, tho more for women
This thread is talking about a serious and real issue, and you are diverting the topic
This thread is about how often men going through hard times arent helped and told to deal with it, I dont think its their fault for wanting to be helped
Meanwhile, if she plays with women or the rare non-toxic guy, none of that is a problem, they congratulate each other, give constructive feedback and say good luck, have fun, good game.
Can you imagine how it is to go through that every single day? No matter if you're sick or pissed or depressed? To try and relax in a fun game of Valorant after a super frustrating work day, and immediately being screamed at by a rabid male teenager who very obviously just thinks that insulting others makes him more likeable and "alpha"? Every time you want to relax?
I like how in attacking the original image's message you only support it
As a man who is basically dead inside, probably, in the long run, due to men. I tend to use the phrase "I hate people" not because I'm avoiding the whole thing of saying I hate men or I hate women but people generally suck. All of the reasons you have listed above apply to people as a whole.
I'm not defending the opposing side of your argument because I fully understand it, women probably do face those things in large proportions due to men, but I have been told, in the grand scheme of things, probably an equal number of times to man up or grow a pair by men and women alike. When I say I'm dead inside, I don't physically know how to display any actual emotion, (anger and humour are the 2 most prominent if you count humour as an emotion) so simply by voicing something that I don't like or making a complaint is enough for people to think I'm not being manly enough.
I still have a circle of people I care about and I'm almost sure they care about me but I would still say I hate people.
And after sharing my experiences, you wonder why I might be that way. You argue for the reasoning why some women say they hate men and as soon as someone says women aren't all angels you get defensive. Look in the mirror, the patriarchy you hate, you're part of it.
Said someone who doesn't understand what that actually means. The toxic masculinity in this post is the exact type of shit to go "lol but guys the patriarchy" like it isn't a fully fuckin defined concept in sociology. Don't let the patriarchy win, don't be toxic.
The belief that toxic masculinity is harmful to men as much as women is not incompatible with recognizing that women still deal with systemic misogyny. In fact, they're two sides of the same coin, the outdated perception that men must always be strong and stoic to protect the weak and emotional women.
Maybe you should actually talk to men rather than talking for them.
You're not all knowing.
Even in that post the two men both said they got support from men but not women.
Time and time again you can look up question on the Internet like "Men why don't you open up to women?" "Why don't you cry in front of your girlfriend?" Etc etc. Its always full on men saying "I did that is was a huge mistake, I learnt my lesson." Then they say women either lost respect for them and dumped them immediately or as soon as an argument happened they used their insecurities against them.
What women don't seem to understand is guys can call each other cocksuckers but also be there for them when they need it. Girls don't call their guy friends names but importantly they aren't there for them.
Maybe you could use this as a learning exercise? I have been in very macho environments and with guys. Most have been approachable and helpful. Girls not so much.
I have been in very macho environments and with guys. Most have been approachable and helpful. Girls not so much.
Have you considered that your experiences in macho environments with guys could be primarily due to your appearance and demeanor? And that your experiences with women being unapproachable could be due to that same appearance and demeanor, as well as the institutionalized power dynamics and physical inequalities between men and women?
I'm not saying that it's easy to connect on a deep emotional level with platonic female friends (or romantic partners) as a man. I'm just saying that it's not necessarily because women are intentionally excluding you; like someone elsewhere in the thread said, many men have been victimized of the patriarchy, too.
Maybe I should give more context. I have been in macho environments but not exclusively. I'm saying a typical macho environments that some women think is horrific and uncaring, is actually more caring and better for mental health of a man than any female relationship outside of a close intimate one.
I'm an guy with a bang in the middle BMI. But I have played rugby a lot and I have done things like camping, fighting, roughhousing, drinking. I'm a typical man's, man not an extreme example just an average one. I grew up with females friends, had female friends in school, uni and post. Lived with girls. Best friend in work was a girl. Old friendship group from my hometown is 50:50 guys:girls
I believe I'm fairly approachable as a guy and not threatening.
Women are terrible at giving sympathy or comfort to men. Whenever you voice your insecurities to them it's a mistake. The "worst", most "toxic masculinitiy" environments are better than the best women encounter (outside of relationships or your mum)
The additional context is helpful, and I'm not trying to minimize your experiences. I'm just saying that an average guy who's played rugby and is a "typical man's man" can be inherently and unintentionally threatening to women, even if you personally have a friendly relationship with those women. Now some of this is likely cultural and country specific. I'm guessing from your reply times and mentioning rugby, uni, and camping that you're from Aus (or at least not the US). Most of my background is in the western US, so I understand that in your situation, things are probably totally different than my experiences. However, I have also spent lots of time in mixed friend groups, in traditional male-dominated areas (including rugby teams, interestingly), in very conservative spaces (as a very liberal person), and my experiences have been markedly different than yours.
I believe I’m fairly approachable as a guy and not threatening.
The issue isn't necessarily you. Women have been trained through long and often traumatic personal histories that men, especially traditionally masculine men, are dangerous. Add to that the fact that when you start to open up about emotional issues, your behavior starts to deviate from "normal" guy behavior. Not a problem, except that now you're an average guy (which usually means significantly larger and stronger than an average woman) who is behaving in unexpected ways, which means you're unpredictable from the point of view of a woman.
None of her perception or fear is your fault, but it is literally a dangerous situation from the woman's point of view.
Women are terrible at giving sympathy or comfort to men.
I don't necessarily disagree; I'm just trying to get you to think about whether that's because women don't care or because in nearly every culture, women need to be exceptionally cautious around men, especially men in emotional distress that might behave unpredictably. Even if they know you really well under normal circumstances, when you start to deviate from "normal" behavior, women need to be on their guard.
The “worst”, most “toxic masculinitiy” environments are better than the best women encounter
And that's where you lose me. Yes, "masculine environments" can be a great place to open up and get emotional support, but they can also reinforce harmful habits and act as an echo chamber (much like male-dominated internet discourse). I'm not saying that you should replace your male friends with female friends, or that you should stop talking to your male friends. I'm just saying that women can also provide that support in many circumstances (in my experience).
If you're consistently having bad experiences when you talk about emotional issues with women, then it may be the way you present the issues, the group dynamics, or the specific women that you choose to open up to. To say point blank that "The worst, most 'toxic masculinity' environments are better than the best women encounter" is where I disagree.
I'm saying women being horrible and hurtful to men is something they need to work on. Using men as an excuse for why women can be horrible is unacceptable.
Let me ask you a question. Are all the stereotypical incels right how they treat women because some women have treated some man bad? No. So why are you saying the inverse is acceptable? That's the only point I'm making. Women need to do a lot better with handling themselves. That's not mens fault. Honestly this conversation is a waste of time.
For thr record. I'm Welsh and I was in Aus for a time but now I'm in NZ. Coincidently I seen two guys get dumped, one from each country. One happened just after dad died. Other happened when he went home to his nans funeral over the phone.
Rugby is integral to all three of those cultures and women are regularly involved. All blacks are everywhere and are a cultural icon on every from of adverstimement. You're mistaking how men only that is.
Lol. Yeah, maybe start by being open with women? Like it or not, conforming to what you think a woman expects is you being dishonest; when you only later open up, your own actions contradict the expectation that you previously set.
And, no, the entire Internet is not filled with this incel crap. Maybe the corners you frequent? Who knows.
Perpetuating the failures of our broken patriarchal system does not, in fact, justify it's existence. Furthermore, starting with this misogynistic crap is nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy. But you know what? You do you. At least the chances of you passing this ignorant hatred to your kids will be practically non-existent...
Oh, and uh, no, i have no reason to "learn" misogyny; I happen to be blessed with an amazing relationship specifically because I do NOT subscribe to this useless crap.
In short, you're wrong, and always will be. Feel free to whine about it, I don't care. I'm done with this discussion.
But you got to be realistic. Generally women are sexist, they do like things certain ways, they do expect ideals.
Surprise surprise women aren't as perfect as you think. Not all problems in the world are due to men.
Women can do a lot better and they should. Rather than just passing the blame they should improve on their own sexist views.
I don't know why women treating men like shit is mens fault. It happens from childhood too, are you going to say a 5 year old boy is responsiblefor being mistreated by an adult woman? Belive it or not women are responsible for their actions
Didn't say they were perfect, and didn't say their actions are your fault. I did say YOUR actions are yours, and yours alone.
And, dude...that's the only thing you can control. Frankly, whether you are right or wrong in the views you've stated is irrelevant. All you're gonna accomplish is twisting yourself up inside over things you cannot change.
Most importantly, if you use other people's choices as an excuse to be a shit person, that just guarantees a pattern of lose-lose scenarios in your life. If you're trying to be miserable, then go for it. But if not, well, you can only control yourself; all other "power" is an illusion.
Another way to put it: the only problems that matter are the ones that are yours. Other people's problems or choices are just a distraction; that shit ain't gonna take you anywhere. At least not anywhere you want to be. If you're not satisfied with something in life, that's on you to figure out. Blame is useless - it's not a solution, it's a trap.
Sometimes it is nice to have help with your problems though. If you are a man and want help with your problems your only choice is to confide in another man.
Women do not want to help men but they expect help from them.
That doesn't make me miserable that's just accepting the world the way it is and it's a life lesson men tend to learn the hard way. That does that mean you should be a shit person at all, it doesn't mean you should be miserable. All it is is reality that women will expect you to help with their problems but they will not help with yours. Its a harsh truth and life is better once you see it.
No it’s not. Biologically speaking there is no difference between male and female brains that justifies having half the human population’s emotional needs neglected. It’s all down to arbitrary social rules and barriers about male stoicism that do not apply to modern day society.
If you want to tough it out, feel free to, but only because you personally chose to do it. Not because “That’s how it has always been” or because you’ll be ridiculed by others. All men should be able to choose what emotions they show, when to show them, and how to show them without fearing ridicule.
so if i tell you for example that my life sucks and i've lost everything and fucked up every chance that i was given by some miraculous faith you would care like there's not enough shit going on in your own life? we, men, are who we are because everyone got their own problems and their own shit going on in their own lives, so it's just a waste of time, energy and sanity to care about other men's wellbeing if you don't have a real bond with them. if i start to care about every guy on the internet and care about their problems i will just kill myself eventually, and i don't expect a different treatment to myself either. it is what it is.
I mean I would care as much as I can for an internet stranger.
I never said anything about caring about every man ever, but you don’t seem to realize that you don’t even care about the men in your life if you apply the same “Tough it out then kill yourself” attitude to them as you’re espousing right now.
And do you think women don’t have equally heavy issues going on in their lives? Do you think no woman out there has ever lost everything and fucked up every chance they get? But societally speaking it’s more acceptable to get help and talk about their fuck ups without judgement.
I’m clearly not going to change your mind, but like…I hope you can talk to someone about the stuff you’re dealing with, or at least give yourself some grace and forgiveness. Existence is really hard already.
I care and I sincerely hope that your life doesn't suck. Also, I personally don't find it to be a waste of time to care about anyone's well being or problems, so if you need to unload anything, I'll listen.
Totally unrelated to my last reply, but you might find this interesting. Not sure I've read anything that explains so much about human behavior. I read it a time or two a year. Let me know what you think.
"Men are victims of the patriarchy too" is an incredibly powerful message that I wish more men understood.
"You're gay if you don't like football", "you're wasting your life if you don't want to get married and have kids", "you'll never find a husband if you don't wear makeup", "you're not a real man if you cry". The patriarchy is sexist to everyone, and that's why everyone should give a shit.
When I found out the patriarchy wasn’t about horses, I lost interest.
It's like when you talk to a small business owner. They'll talk about how the banks and big companies screw them left and right, but they'll also tell you that they think they'll end up Bill Gates. Same delusion
Heads up, the message you're replying to was a joke from the Barbie movie.
The amount of people who didn't understand the whole thing about ken in that movie was scary.
No shit! I wanted to cry for him. I GOT him.
And my fiancé did weep a little during "the speech".
That movie hit hard. I'd love a man version of that speech, but it would have been wildly out-of-place, and I wouldn't have wanted America Ferrera's rant to have been watered down by a "both sides" thing.
"What are your thoughts on the "Barbie" movie?", would be a great dating site question for any of us. Weed out the assholes in a hurry.
I felt it applied to men in a lot of ways still. Sure, a lot of details, I had to adjust in my head, but I didn't feel like I need a man version to get it. There were some woman specific things in there and a whole lot of human things.
Thank you.
I find it interesting that, under a post on how men and, even more often, women, ignore men's mental health, you feel the need to specify that it's the men that lack understanding of the problem.
In conversations I've had around this I've found that women get this immediately, even if they hadn't considered it before. But men tend to be very resistant to the idea.
If anything, "resisting the idea" sounds an awful lot like "not wanting to set yourself up for disappointment".
Yup, the alarm bells aren't ringing, we learned to turn them off.
I hate this way of putting it, especially because it puts the blame on a single gender. It's not JUST men who shoehorn people into gender roles, we all do it.
It's off putting to me and I tend to dismiss the entire thing because it basically says that men being bad also hurts men. Had it said that men also are victims of gender roles I would immediately agree, and I can't imagine that I'm the only one who feels this way.
That's why it's so important to specify that men are victims of patriarchy, not victims of men. Everyone, regardless of gender, has an environmental tendency to reinforce the societal structure that we label "Patriarchy", as you say (and I/many agree), but there's far more to it than the idea of "men first women second". The idea behind the phrase is not "everyone vs. men" but rather "everyone vs. harmful but deeply engrained social construct".
Then why use the label "Patriarchy"? It has a very specific meaning that I don't feel applies to many western societies and definitely not to the sociatal structure and norms that we happen to live in, regardless of who is in charge. I think we agree on everything but the term.
Because it still puts men on top in most ways, even while it hurts them too.
And it definitely applies to all western societies.
You can see it in this very story. "Men are strong, they don't need help. Women are weak and emotional, that's why they need support." Yeah, it's devastating for men in this situation, but it's the same logic which makes people say men are natural leaders or whatever.
Don't forget that leadership is not a cakewalk either; it comes with responsibility and sacrifice. It is a burden as are most 'advantages' that men 'enjoy'.
In a just world it would be, but the consequence of being labelled and perceived as a "natural leader" is that one can get away with shirking their responsibility, avoiding sacrifice, and abusing their position without much repercussion.
That's fair enough. I guess it depends how you view leadership.
The Patriarchs in question does not refer to all men. It specifically calls out the culture of the "elders"and those who have had ample opportunity to become established influences through the system. Those who subscribe to old fashioned beliefs and those at the top of the power structures that benefit from their compliance from younger, poorer generations. Emotionally distant men and limiting variability within the group makes the entire demographic more easily exploitable. A lot of roles in the family and society exist for men outside the title of "patriarch" but patriarchs specifically use their role to self legitimize their power over other people and make everyone in some way subservient.
It's kind of a shorthand for "old fashioned" conservative systems of organization that prime men to be "leaders in embryo". The gendered component is still valid because it is still a dominant model that is marbled with minor subversions of it. Women and non-standard men may have changed their place in the family but even when they reach the top they have to make themselves non-threatening to the cohort of established powers and play by their rules to succeed.
because those gender roles are largely decided by men
As a father who is very involved in my kids’ life, I feel this frequently. At the start of each school year I submit my contact info as the primary contact info and yet sometimes emails will circulate among the class moms anyway. Or I’ll get a text from another kid’s mom asking for my wife’s number so they can plan something.
When we started making friends with parents of my kid, all the moms in the group created a chat group which they still use to this day. The dads didn’t make one because that’s just not a thing you do, and I wasn’t invited to the moms group, even though I knew them at least as well as she did, and I am the extrovert and my wife is the introvert. So I frequently feel lonely and isolated (I also WFH) and my wife is socially overwhelmed.
Yes I could just buck the system and try to get the dads to have a group, or have my wife add me into the moms group, or similar things in other areas of life. But that’s the point: any time I do that I’ll be going against the grain.
I have struggled so hard with this. My child's school cannot seem to understand that I, the father, am the one who primarily takes care of my daughter. My wife and I have started to flat out refuse to give the school my wife's contact info, even as an "emergency contact", just to make them communicate with me. I did manage to make a bunch of faculty at her old school mad when I asked, publicly, why they felt the need to discriminate against me when trying to contact patents, and this had the unintended effect of making a bunch of other fathers in the group pop up and ask the same question. Now my daughter is old enough that she, herself, will call them out on it. Having a ten year old lose her shit and tell the teacher that she needs to contact the right parent is really funny, almost as funny as when they insisted on contacting my wife instead of me, again, to complain that my kid had yelled at them for not contacting me.
I deal with this also except my ex abandoned us to move states away. She will still get notifications via email or text that she forwarded to me because they have her information on file. They have her information because I was forced to provide divorce paperwork showing I had custody of the kids to enroll them in school. Wonder how many moms get asked for paperwork proving custody when they try enrolling their kids in school. It’s reduced over the last three years but the first couple were ridiculous. Finally have a mom of one kid and dad of another kid that recognize I’m a parent to my children. Everything is stupid though. Every doctors apt, school visit, dentist apt, hell even trips to the store. Some BS content like “where’s mom” or “oh you’re filling in today”. I’m so sick of it. I cope by telling myself that at least it would be worse if the love of my life died horrifically instead of going bananas and abandoning us and I had to deal with this shit. At some point I’m worried I’ll snap at people but I never want to say anything negative about her around the kids.
I'm not even a parent and this shit pisses me off.
Very similar. With our work schedules I end up spending more time with the kids than Mom does. My commute is much shorter and I can work from home a day or so a week. I feel like there is this whole network I am freezed out of.
Agreed.
My husband has had virtually no emotional support from anyone, so much so that he doesn't understand how to communicate any of his feelings.
"How do you feel?" "I don't know" "Can I do something to help?" "I don't know"
I definitely don't ignore his mental health but his lack of communication drives me up the pole. Often I have to just walk away out of frustration. I wish I understood how to get through to him without it making me want to bash my own skull against the wall. I think a big part of it is that he doesn't want to admit that he has any emotions at all
Yeah. That's real fun isn't it? And I really don't know. I'm luckier than most men, in that I have an understanding wife who doesn't use my emotions against me.
Seems like you two chose each other well!
My husband is usually functional, but when things go wrong he crawls up inside himself and just doesn't wanna come out. I deal with problems by facing them head-on, and he deals with them by pretending they don't exist. Obviously that creates conflict (which then doesn't help either of us. It's extremely frustrating to know there is a problem but not know what that problem is)
He's told me that he'll go to therapy. I'm hoping that a third party will be able to help him unravel why he doesn't know how he's feeling, and how to communicate his needs
I am like that too. When I go over my limits, my tendency is to isolate myself.
I am better now, but I've been with a psychotherapist since 2020 and I am a lot better now at identifying my emotions and not isolate myself.
For me what worked was learning to identify my emotions. My first reaction to pretty much any negative emotion is anger and I don't think that will change. However, I've learned to identify the emotion after the anger and then I speak it out. Sometimes, just a small statement to myself (" I acknowledge this emotion X") and sometimes, it leads to a long thinking about the situation that caused the emotion and how that made me feel.
So to help your other half, helping him identify the emotion after the anger would be the first step.
I concur, but after 3 years of me trying to help him identify what he's feeling, a third party has to get involved. The problem is that I get frustrated and that doesn't help anyone. He absolutely needs someone neutral to guide him. It can't be me
I understand. And a therapist will have a multitude of tools to help him find the right one to start the journey.
I wish you the best and hope that your situation will get better soon.
Therapy and/or an ADHD diagnosis (not joking, one symptom of neuroatypical people is the inability to identify emotions in themselves (like me lol)).
I suspect autism with him. He's an Engineer, so he has a lot of Braun power but I've had to teach him to greet me, say please and thank you, and introduce me to people I haven't met. He literally left me in his friends doorway when we were dating. (It was a party and he opened the door, walked in and started hanging out with their 3year old while I stood there dumbfounded until I started introducing myself as his girlfriend. Yes, we broke up over it, but we figured it out and now we're married)
Maybe this could help him? It's from a peer counselor who deals a lot with these types of problems, usually with fairly nerdy guys, many of them on the spectrum.
I think it's sadly one of those things that people don't understand until it happens to them. They'll leave other men to their private hells and when it's their turn they wonder why everyone has abandoned them like they did other men so many times before.
"Hanging on in quiet desperation...". Huh. That lyric always hit home, didn't know why. LOL, I'm not even English!
We have all learned through experience to shut the fuck up. I've dated, a lot in the past 35-years of adulthood. Know what happens when a woman sees you cry? Dumped. Every. Damned. Time. And none of them ever expressed that it was a problem. But after enough experience, even my dumb ass can draw a cause -> effect line. And some asshole will try to be kind and say, "She wasn't a good person anyway!" Whatever. I still got dumped, over and over again. STFU, both of us.
Hell, I'm getting married next week. Third time's a charm! Seriously, no woman has ever loved me so deeply. No woman has ever treated me so finely. I have never felt so comfortable, and more importantly, secure with a woman. It's all a bit hard to get my head around, honestly struggling to internalize it. But read on...
Last night I tried to tell her how much cracking stress I'm under this month.
"Oh! You are having second thoughts about marrying me?" (Her tone was "scared shitless", not "antagonistic".)
See what I mean guys? I should have just sucked it up. All I did was hurt her and gained nothing for my own mental health.
We gain nothing, and stand to lose everything, by showing weakness to our women. It's not their fault and I'm not condemning them. They're every bit the primates we are.
EDIT: She just came home from work and her first words were, "Are you still scared?" Damn what a woman. And how so very nice to be wrong this time.
Sounds like you finally found the right woman.
I knew he was the one when my husband (then boyfriend) cried in the theater when (spoiler alert) ET died. I wish more women had empathy for men's unique struggles, but some of us do exist.
After his best friend moved away, my husband gradually settled into this dynamic where I was his only emotional support. Meanwhile I actively nurtured friendships with several women in my life. When he died, I had a network of people checking on me. I shudder to think how he would have fared if the situation were reversed.
Many friends and family asked me how they could help. I always replied that I wanted them to include my then-21-year-old son in their family plans occasionally, especially those who could provide a male role model. I asked male friends and relatives to check in on him occasionally and encourage him as he struggled through a deep depression to finish his degree. Only one person bothered. I am still angry about this.
We all need to be the change we want to see. Women need to be more aware and more accepting of men's emotions. Men need to work harder at forming and maintaining deep friendships. Look around and notice men in your circle who are struggling. Ask yourself how you can reach out to them.
Society is doing a crap job at creating ways for men to get support. So stop waiting for that to happen and do it yourself.
It sounds like you have enough self knowledge to begin to connect with your emotions. I suggest you tune your soon-to-be wife into this process, it sounds like she will be understanding when you get on the same page. Best of luck!
LOL, check my edit.
Yeah, the 99% of us have far more in common with each other than with the 1%. It's oligarchy through plutocracy, not patriarchy.
Ideals of masculinity aren't instilled in children by the 1%, they are perpetuated by parents and peers at a personal level.
![email protected]
It's true though. The patriarchy has perpetuated the idea that men are strong and stoic and women are weak and emotional, so it falls to men to be the leaders. The idea that men also need protection and understanding runs counter to the concept of patriarchy, hence why it hurts men as well as women.
I think most of us understand how things are. The problem is the one's whose opinions matter don't give a fuck about changing anything because they're at the top of the hierarchy. They benefit from treating the rest of us like shit.
It's kind of a worthless statement really.
The ones at the top of the hierarchy aren't the ones instilling these toxic ideals of masculinity in to young men. Parents and peers are perpetuating this on a personal level.
Media perpetuates these ideals but they didn't originate with them. These ideals of masculinity have been around for hundreds of years before the modern media.
You say yourself here, "the media influences gender norms... at least as much as". Yeah, of course, it is a problem throughout all layers of society. Your earlier comment seemed to be saying that blame should be mostly with the 1%? I'm not sure what you are saying here.
Because if you don't adhere to these ideals you won't be successful in life. You won't get anywhere in your career. Women aren't going to date you. You'll be bullied and beaten down at every turn. Until something changes at the top these parents and peers are doing them a favor.
I've rejected these ideals my whole life. I was bullied as a kid but once I got out of school I found my people and never looked back. Never had a problem with women, the ones I dated found my emotional openness attractive. I'm successful in my professional life, tech lead at a financial software company.
I understand that different places have different degrees of pressures for this kind of thing, but what you're saying is a lie. You've been programmed by the system to believe it and it is probably making you miserable. And if you have kids, it'll make them miserable too. It doesn't have to be that way. I feel bad for you.
Nah. It's just an attempt to steer the conversation back to women's issues. It's just less on the nose than "...And that's why you need feminism^TM^!"
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here? You don't think that the masculinity that gets taught to men is a problem for their mental health?
I might really misunderstand what patriarchy means in this context. But I'm using the definition "a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it".
I don't see how this is relevant to the "masculinity that gets taught to men", as this idea is also perpetuated by women, so I don't see how having a matriarchal or neutral society would fix this.
It seems to be more the result of the expectation that men need to be providers and protectors, which can be an expectation regardless of if the society is patriarchal or matriarchal or neither.
Sorry if I'm being ignorant. I'm just trying to understand better
To my mind the central mechanism for systemic control by the patriarchy is enforcement of gender roles. Men should be like this, women should be like that. Of course there will be ideas of masculinity in any society, patriarchal or not, but I think the aggressive enforcement of those roles and punishment for deviation from them is specifically an aspect of patriarchal systems.
On top of that, given the systematic exclusion of men from child rearing, re teaching elementary school, babysitting, or even parenting while male is all but criminalized in the Western world so nearly no men serve in those roles, I'm left to question who is responsible for "the masculinity that gets taught to men."
I think unfortunately over the past 50 years the "masculinity that gets taught to men" comes from movies and TV shows.
I'm saying it has the same energy as one of those insufferable Christians popping their heads into every conversation at all and saying "And that's why ya'll need Jesus^TM^."
Someone starts blabbering about the "patriarchy" in a discussion about men's issues, they're not contributing to the discussion. They don't genuinely care about the topic at hand. They've found an excuse to insert themselves into conversation.
Yep "well if men weren't such assholes they wouldn't hold the few good apples down like this"
I literally quoted from the Tumblr post about patriarchy. You sound way too online.
Thanks for articulating that. I've always felt that the title for a phenomenon that oppresses people based on their gender shouldn't be named for one of them. It doesn't help anyone.
Men understand it already. It's the women who don't.
I don't find this to be true, in my experience. Most men I've discussed this with are very resistant to the idea.
Men do understand it. We live through it every day. It's the women who need to understand it. It's the women who seem to think that men have great lives and everything is given to them. That's not the case at all.
Men might understand that they are unhappy, but I don't think most men blame that on the cultural ideals of masculity that are pushed on them their whole lives. If most men do understand that, then why do they struggle so much to change? The common messaging in men's mental health is usually around telling men that it is ok to have feelings, ok to talk about them, ok to cry and show emotions. If men understand that they are being victimised by other men (and themselves) and the social pressures to conform, why is it so difficult to get those messages through to them?
And I mean, the fact that you feel the need throw blame on women here (who are also victimised by the same system) seems like you're not actually blaming the patriarchy?
You seem to conflate "men" and "patriarchy".
Yup, I was trying to think of a way to say this succinctly, but you've done it. It's sad that the majority of the thinking here is "y'all are doing this to yourselves". I think I've basically given up trying to argue this point with people already. Seems like a lost cause, and not something that will change in my lifetime.
ehhhh. often it comes out as "I'm unhappy because of women". it takes a special kind of introspection to really understand that you're participating in and probably reinforcing the system that you're suffering from.
incels are not representative of anyone
It's all very much a class war that gets masqueraded as a sex/political war
There can be more than one thing.
Maybe it is just that I have had a long day, but please explain how the wealth devide is causing people to feel like they need to conform to toxic gender roles.
Rich people indoctrinate the poor masses
The one track mind of communists
Well if there were any force in history with such a well-established power to affect change besides wealth we might build a second track.
why? you know what the "patriarchy" actually is? like, what actually enacts the problematic things people say is caused by the patriarchy? it's the capitalist class for the most part.
you can tell because non capitalist societies dont have one
Fundamentally? capitalist structures are nothing new, the only real difference is the justification to the selective ownership of capital, and that is more pervasive and more predictable than any patriarchal structures throughout history.
I have more in common as a CIS "white" male with any race of gay, trans, person than I do any rich white male
Most feminists don't even acknowledge this. Or they say even if men are victims, they deserve it for participating in the patriarchy.
Wrong, this is something almost universally acknowledged in feminist circles.
As a staunch feminist whose friends are all feminists, I have never heard a single one say—or even imply—anything like that. I very much know how extremely painful it is to have your feelings ignored and invalidated, so garbage like that is a dealbreaker.
If you're hearing this claim from people irl, they're saying it because they're shitty people... not because they call themselves "feminists".
Whereas plenty of guys have. I'd like to consider myself a feminist, but in my experience, I'm not welcome to the label, since it seems that progressive women are less compassionate than "nonpolitical" ones when it comes to relating to the issues of men. It's obviously not some issue with feminism, but we don't get to have popular movements and also ignore their ills. The vast majority of educated feminists agree with you. The vast majority of people in the streets calling themselves feminist seem entirely in it for themselves, and it's really tiresome when well-meaning feminists who aren't just exercising their trauma, the people that men like these most-need to have honest conversations with, insist that men don't know what happens to them.
Apparently, there are no misandrists, according to online discourse. Should I tell my memories they're wrong, that I should have just been more open-minded as a young child when more than one teacher preached that men are evil and stupid, and deserve subjugation? Or maybe, just like how misogynists are good at covering it up around their friends, so are the handful of misandrists who do exist?
People always seem shocked when I'm offended by terms like "I hate men".
Like it's somehow wrong of me to be offended by blatant misandry because I should just "know what they mean". I'm one of "the good ones, they don't mean me when they say it". Horseshit.
The blatant misandry that some people carry around like a badge of honor is kinda horrifying, if I’m being honest. It’s almost like they don’t even realize that what they’re doing and how they feel about billions of people is inherently wrong.
Thanks for a great example of how men's concerns are often ignored or downplayed.
I think just having some empathy would really help you here. The point is not difficult to understand
This article is about how everyone needs support, only the last comment on it even mentioned the language.
Well no. I wouldn't put it like that but I think that statement is sexist, but obviously don't agree with the Palestinian kid one. So hello from outside the circle.
Not sure about the race example but yes exactly, thank you.
This is your framing from your own personal perspective. You were originally responding to someone who surely isn't attempting to blame sexism on women. I'm sure you can see how a statement like "men are trash" is sexist. Just like feminists are correct to call out anyone saying "women are trash," men are totally within their rights to call this out and discuss how sexism in society affects them too. This post is the perfect example, men need to be able to step outside of this context where they are treated like monsters (or rapists, as you said) or like their needs are less important. Things would be better for everyone if men had the emotional support offered to women. Even the bad ones might not be so bad if they felt less devalued and disposable.
I'm sorry if you've been traumatized and I totally see how having your words scrutinised like this is annoying as shit if you're just looking to vent, but the whole point is that nobody should have to experience sexism. And that includes men. Treat others how you want to be treated and all that.
Crazy how you just completely ignored what I said and propped up the most blatant strawman.
Keep it up.
Like only one conversation about gender discrimination is permitted to happen at one time, and any time on one is time taken away from the other. It's not either men's issues or women's, it should be both.
The second poster’s story so clearly shows why a man’s partner being their only emotional support is devastating to both people in the relationship, yet this idea is still so insidiously pervasive in our society. No one wins.
I am mid thirties male and getting divorced. Making friends as an adult is so hard. Even going to things I like, doesn't guarantee I'll click with anyone there really.
especially if your taste is a little off the beaten path. I really like a ton of music that most would consider "weird" or "an acquired taste," which means other fans tend to be condescending and douchey (I may be pretentious, but I try to draw the line at condescending). Add to that the fact that I live in a tiny town and that many of my other hobbies attract either edge-lords (i.e. TTRPGs) or bros (i.e. snowboarding and baseball), and it can feel like it's not even worth trying to get to know people with shared interests.
Luckily I work in a job where I can have meaningful relationships with several of my coworkers even if we have very little in common beyond the work (and my extroverted wife and kids mean I get about all the interactions my introverted self can handle).
edit: Almost forgot to offer you some support! Keep trying OP, there are people worth knowing out there, and you may already know some of them. I've had really good luck getting in touch with some college friends and doing discord or zoom game nights where we chat and play online card games or TTRPG's once a month.
Hey Thanks I appreciate it! I am in a really good headspace for the first time in months so things are going well :) I also work with a Therapist and Psychiatrist so I have support there as well
Have you gotten the advice to make friends with other divorced dads yet? 🥲/s
Jokes aside, I’m sorry for your circumstances. I’m in my 20s and it’s already hard to make friends now, I can’t imagine how it’ll be in the future. Ironically enough, I have met and made friends with quite a few 30-40 year old divorced dad’s through local ttRPG groups and FFXIV.
If it’s any encouragement, most of them say they have bounced back after the roughest period of their lives in getting divorced, and are happier now than pre-divorce. I can’t really say if what they’re saying is truth or a lie, but I wish you all the best, from one internet rando to another!
I am doing pretty good honestly, I am shy and have social anxiety so it has always been hard to make friends and trust people, but I am on good terms with my ex and I go to a Board Game group weekly so eventually ill find some friends there :) I also still talk to friends made starting in HS and College so I may move back to the PNW at some point.
I moved here to be by Family which is nice, but I kind of hate the south.
Need to bring back men only clubs.
That's how most men bond. In a group.
still missing the point eh?
How did "grieve different" become don't grieve at all? I'd be willing to bet that if men started grieving exactly like women, they still wouldn't get the support they need.
Even worse, we'd probably get made fun of
This sounds like a massive cry for help
I remember something similar to this when my mom died 15 years ago. Lots of aunt's and friends reaching out to my sister to support her, traveling across the country to visit. I don't think I ever even got a note.
But I do have the thing where I probably wouldn't have cared either, if not for watching the support my sister got, it never would have occurred to me someone could do those things. And I know those people aren't my actual friends, so I really had zero expectations from them. I think it was more the insult on top of injury that bothered me. "Not only do we not care, but we're going to show you what we would be doing if we did care."
I never took this as a boy/girl thing though. I never fit in in life, still to this day. Just sorta expected.
my condolences
This is pure envy and you can not do anything about it. Part of being a human.
Im an envious guy myself.
Dude got outright shit on and u call it envy...wow...just delusional.
Feeling entitled is the primary manifestation of envy. It is there for this exact purpose to orient yourself. So that you feel what you expect for equalization, so you dont feel "shit on". Whether you want it or not, this is envy.
The only reason you have to deny that is because of the negative connotations you associate with envy. You are deluding yourself.
I thought men were supposed to suffer in silence then die early from stress and chemical numbing?
Edit: Funny this popped up in lemmy today https://lemmy.world/post/8222670
On the bright side it is 6 crappy years. Not the good ones of your 20s. Just means a few less rounds of bridge and less years in a home in Florida.
Personally, I'm going to die young even if it kills me. I've seen my ancestors' attempts at old age. I'll have none of it.
I just watched Netflix anime 'Blue Eye Samurai.' Highly recommended. There's a scene where a princess is talking to the madam of a notorious bordello that specializes in the unusual. The madam goes on and on about how weak and fragile men are, how they need their egos massaged and need to feel supported.
After reading the post, I realized that this is a pretty common trope in fiction; sex workers talking about how most of their clients are only there because they need something that their jobs/families/communities deny them.
Just a thought.
It's not just a thing in fiction either; I've seen plenty of threads and discussions over the years where real-life sex workers have essentially been saying the same thing. A lot of men are lonely.
That's what's amazing to me. Everyone knows about it, but it's treated like a big secret.
Even in Japanese love hotels, I've heard it's common for men to book someone and just..cuddle for a while. Fall asleep being held. I don't have to live it to believe it.
I am seeing a lot of pushback--presumably from feminists--towards men that are expressing their experiences.
...But that has not been my experience.
Should it be? Yes, absolutely. But is it now? No. And unfortunately, in my experience, the women that are saying such things--almost always self-identifying feminists--are also often then ones that are unaccepting of any display of emotion in men that aren't coming from a place of strength. Men are e.g., expected to shrug off grief and depression and go back to work the day after a funeral. I shan't be too specific for risk of doxxing myself, but I've noted that I'm expected to muscle through physical pain and mental exhaustion, while none of my partners--either current or former--will hold themselves to the same standard that I am held to by them.
I cynically think that many self-identifying feminists don't want to abolish patriarchy, they just want to be able to benefit from it the same way that men do, without paying any of the costs for that benefit that men shoulder.
100% agree. and most, if not all, don't realize the burdens men shoulder.
You do distinguish "self-identifying feminists" individuals who are "pushing back" from the ideology of feminism which is a worthwhile distinction. Because even with a boilerplate feminism 101 ideology around dismantling the patriarchy (and oppressive gender norms) recognizes it harms men as well, and advocates for a full appreciation and humanization of both men and women (and others) as complex sentient and emotional beings (see, equality). The first time I encountered anything about creating space for men to express emotions 15 years ago was through feminists. There's an entire field of men's health focused on mental health and dealing with masculinities in health contexts that were built on understandings of gender pioneered by feminist/critical academia. The people "pushing back" against such emotional space and empathy are advocating for things more aligned with misandry rather than feminism.
Yes, I agree; I don't think that the people that have given me shit are actually living what they claim to believe. (...Which could also be hypocrisy.) I agree with the primary goals of feminism, if that primary goal is the dismantling of gendered power structures and gender norms so that people can be who they are rather than artificially--and negatively-constrained. OTOH, there are plenty of self-identified feminists that make broad generalizations about negative behavior, and apply that generalization to all men; I don't think that's helpful, unless your goal is to drive away potential allies such that you can feel justified in your rage.
The problem here is that the cases that I'm referring to are people saying that they're feminist without believing in or following core tenets of feminism. If I said, for instance, that I was a Christian, and that I believed in sacrificing animals in the temple for receiving forgiveness from sins, you would quite rightly say that I was not a Christian at all, because I didn't believe in or follow one of the primary tenets of Christianity (e.g., that Jesus dies for our sins, and that he fulfilled the law such that animal sacrifice was no longer necessary; I am not, for the record, Christian, nor do I believe in the idea of sin). Most feminists would argue that the primary tenet of feminism is tearing down gendered power structures; reinforcing gender stereotypes would therefore be not feminist.
Well no, I wasn't making a judgement of whether or not those people were "true feminists". I was making a judgement of their actions as being unaligned with the beliefs they claimed.
Humans do things that don't align with their core values all the time. It's called making a mistake or doing a bad thing. For example I'm staunchly anti-racism and try to check my actions. Doesn't mean I never do racist things. Nor does it mean if I do a racist thing, suddenly I'm no longer anti-racist forever and all time. Who tf knows where the line is, but probably it's around the point where you stop trying.
I've had similar experiences and when I've shared this previously all the response I got was "well date better people" as if I have a line of women waiting for their chance with me to select from.
I've lost a few relationships for exposing myself as a man with emotions. I don't plan to make that mistake again. It sucks, but until society changes I can't.
I have made quite different experiences, the people I felt safest to open were feminists.
Edit: I am sorry for your experience and didn't wanted to downplay it. However, as there are many answers in a similar direction as yours, i wanted to give an alternative experience.
I guess it depends on if they're actual feminists or misandrists parroting the words and rhetoric. I imagine a terf for example wouldn't be great
Yes obviously. Actually, the people i was thinking about, were basically advocating for a fair society where every person can live ther own way. As women are currently structurally at disadvantage, this leads them to feminism.
I'm genuinely glad that you've had good experiences. It's possible that my age--I'm pretty sure I'm 20+ years older than the average Lemmy user--has made a difference in the interactions I've had. It's also possible that being neurodivergent has influenced my experiences. I truly don't know; I've only got a single test subject, n=1.
fucking facts. This has been exactly my experience.
Ah, fuck it. We’re supposed to suffer in silence. We’re men. Man up, guys! Grit your teeth and bear it! (/s)
No one checks on me and that’s fine. I don’t really need people to check on me like I’m fragile. I fight my own battles; always have, always will. But for those who do need the more frequent check-ins, they should absolutely have them and should be able to ask for them without fear of ridicule or mockery.
The fact that, statistically speaking, no one cares about lonely folk is pretty discouraging, but you can’t force people to care. And even if you could, it wouldn’t be worthwhile or heartfelt. I sure as hell don’t want people to feel like they have to give a shit.
Stay strong, gents. It’s not weak to ask for help if you need it, even from internet strangers.
I remember when I was having a really rough time at work. My boss was pressuring me into leaving due to repeated underperformance, and I was working well into the night and all of my weekends, for a solid year and a half.
One day I came back from work fully dejected, feeling like a useless sack of dumb crap. My roommate asked me what was up and why we never hang out.
I told him that it was all just a bit too much. His reaction: "man up, or quit." The automatic lack of sympathy stunned me a little, though he might have been right that I really should have just quit. (Full story: I didn't, it did get better, and I even turned some of my detractors into friends, but it was a long road, and I definitely have an unhealthy relationship with work.)
Yesterday I had a comment from a woman friend along the line of "my daughter says you're always serious but nice. You should work on that". She didn't think of asking me why I am always serious...
Wtf does that even mean?
Honestly it would be the easiest solution lol
International Men's Day -- 19th of November.
https://internationalmensday.com/
Talk to each other. Don't let someone go through their life alone.
Actually, June is pride month.
Gotta love that even the very emotional "men have feelings and need support too" post ends with "treat them as wretched because they are wretched." Absolutely fucking tonedeaf to bring that type of negativity and derogatory generalization about men to this context. Big "not all men, but..." energy
Now you're reading it incorrectly: it is "treat [wretched people] as wretched because [wretched people] are wretched", not "treat [men] as wretched because [men] are wretched "
It's written incorrectly. "Only some men are sad. Don't treat all men as though they're sad." How insightful and almost converse of the point, which is, "Gender doesn't determine sensitivity or need."
Quote me a single part of that third post that is explicitly gender neutral rather than explicitly about men, without adding your own interpretation in brackets.
Why would gender-neutral language be appropriate for this venue? It's a discussion of how men are treated, and people who parrot "men are scum" will automatically say "yeah but what about the bad men? are we just supposed to feel bad for them?". It's written for an audience that is not specifically you.
Gender neutral language would not be appropriate for this venue, but it would be required for the "it's about wretched people, not wretched men" interpretation in the comment I was replying to
Except that's literally what I quoted.
I don't read it that way. For me they argue that you should take a different view on wretched people and not blame their personality on their gender.
It's less that the statement is false. But more that the statement is being made at all.
It's like writing a post about how people are too quick to dismiss women as being overemotional, and someone commenting on it by saying
It's just bringing up a stereotype that acts as an excuse to deny men empathy, in the same way as mine does to dismiss women.
I don't disagree with the general message of "Judge people for who they are", but the way it's written is tone death at best.
Maybe the circle they're in is just pretty misandrist so it needs saying. But it just seems unnecessary to me.
I can totally understand your point. While trying to argue against it, i find myself agreeing even more to it.
Only one remark: As you say, the message is in any case not really appropriate for the preceding texts. However, i still think the statement can be interpreted in a constructive view and i try to give the benefit of doubt.
That's right. Judge someone not by the length of their dick , but by the content of their character.
But why even bring up wretched people at all.
Because they want to feel victimized and are using dead children to do so.
This is a post talking about mother’s and father’s dead children and their imbalance of support, yet the third slide boils it down to “saying all men are disgusting pigs hurts my feelings.”
Disgusting.
As a military veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan, this shit hits home. I've seen men break down and men who push it down until it is safe to let the feelings come out. Both are common, but for men you have to be able to keep the emotions in during a crisis situation. The men and women who are unable to do that pose risks of sudden suicide or uncontrollable behavior. Everyone has to let them out, that is extremely important.
A good friend of mine served in Afghanistan up until the very end. Never seemed to have any issues, was always cool and made the military seem like the most boring place on earth.
Flash forward to like a year ago and he's got PTSD triggered by seeing his own kid and can't sleep at night. No idea what happened, but yeah. It hits people.
I think it also has a lot to do with the influence of patiarchy and toxic masculinity on the grieving person.
If you managed to push back against some of society's expectations on men, know how to express more emotions than "angry" and "horny" and have shown vulnerability in the past, people will find it much easier to approach you.
On the other hand, if someone is working super hard to keep up their "manliness", you may realize that they're struggling, but you'll have reservations about tearing down the crumbling facade they're desparately trying to preserve.
Friends?
My best friend of 15 years told me, when I had a rough patch, that he's there for me just reach out but unless I initiate he would treat any interaction as just a normal day.
Throughout the rough patch I choose not to speak of it and just treated our hang outs as a chance to get away. He choose to support me in the only way he knew how and the only way he was comfortable with. I was not comfortable and didn't know how to ask for more support. It's about 7 years from then and my parents still don't know, I just don't know how to ask for and engage with emotional support. I am completely weirded out by the concept of talking about my emotions and somebody else caring, it gives me a high level of anxiety.
TLDR: small male friend groups with limited experience providing or receiving emotional support are unlikely to provide explicit emotional support and there's a good chance if you're a man who needs it you don't know how to ask
It's 100% natural to not want to bring up personal/emotional shit as a guy, it's hardcoded into our DNA it seems.
I for one, don't because when I do get a rare chance to hang with the guys I'm not going to Buzzkill it, and neither do they like it's an unspoken man code. Our therapy is not talking it out like women do. Our therapy IS the hanging out/activities we do with our friends.
Man... You couldn't be more wrong and all you're doing is perpetuating the problem.
dude its because you guys were never taught how to express your emotion in a healthy and productive way. you probably don't even know where to start to express grief, just "I don't know" and "yeah I'm fine".
I wasn't. I'm working on it. How do I do that?
I would say start small, reach out to a trusted friend. and say that you would like to connect with people more genuinely. ask them about their days and take an actual interest in their wellness. ask them if they mind you sharing with them your feelings.
however, you might not have someone like that and making friends as adults is difficult so therapy is another method. make it clear that you're there to learn to express your emotions in a healthy way. and let the therapist guide you through them.
this process is not the easiest, you would need to learn to be vulnerable. and unlearn behaviors and tactics that you've grown accustomed to. but there is strength in acknowledging weaknesses. and I wish you the best.
I used to be all feminism when I was younger. Now I have two kids, I realized man do a sht ton of things without being recognized. It's always that "you are the man, you are supposed to do it" kind of thing. But when it's the other way around like when I asked the ladies what about their "women duties", it's all excuse and argument. It can suck balls being a responsible man.
You can be both a feminist and recognize that men have major struggles too, they're not mutually exclusive
Also, isn't that still under the umbrella of feminism? Feminism isn't "only women rule". Recognizing gender stereotypes affecting men's mental health sounds very much like a feminist thing.
Nowadays this seems to really be the case. Not only do "only women rule", it becomes "men suck" as well. See the recent "I hate all men" thing, as an example. There's some people who say it as a joke, but there are tons who actually believe it, and worse, act on it.
I'd say misandrism isn't really as "mainstream" as it used to be a few years ago. Tumblr used to be misandrism central and now you have posts like these. Even now when someone makes sexist comments about men, a lot of the time they happen to be TERFs, further demotivating new people from agreeing with them.
Yeah, currently you can still find misandrist groups, but they are either confined to twitter (either crazy twitter randos or influencers) or to niche communities that have isolated themselves from the world.
Other than that, there's still the ever present sexist jokes, stereotypes, etc against men that have ingrained themselves in society, but also seem to be dying out too as new generations grow. I wouldn't really consider it a rising problem unless there is some female Andrew Tate brainwashing teenagers on this side too.
Egalitarianism > all other isms. Except autism. autism trumps all.
Well, yes, but they're still not mutually exclusive. For example, I like apples but I also like other fruits as well. Me liking all fruits doesn't override my liking of apples.
I felt very much the same way when I was trying to figure out what was going on and what I believed. What I ultimately landed on is that feminism is really the only game in town when it comes to identifying what is actually happening. I found Bell Hooks' The Will To Change immensely useful in sorting it out -- it's not men vs women, it's the patriarchy vs all of us. One thing she wrote in that book that really resonated with me, and is basically what this post is about, is something along the lines of "the first act of violence that patriarchy demands of men is the destruction of their own emotional selves."
Oh man do I feel that quote at the end
"Man up", "Boys don't cry", "Grow a pair", and so much more (and worse)
Not only coming from the men in my life but the women as well. My grandmothers were particularly bad about it.
And it started as early as I can remember.
The destruction of the emotional self. Being told the only emotions men are allowed to feel are anger and content.
I'm going to have to check out that book, I think it will help being able to bring my thoughts on the matter into a more easily communicable way.
Sounds like you didn't stop feministing, sounds like your feminism just got more humanizing, nuanced, and inclusive rather than less.
TBF…
On average women do more things like give up careers for child rearing, still do tons of daily drudgery like family organizing, housework, Dr. appointments or school activities, cooking, etc. that all goes unrecognized. Dudes go out and do some yard work on a weekend and then hit the couch like they moved the world and should be waited upon for it. I’m a dad and keep my damn mouth shut about my work because my other half has to deal with all the shit when I’m gone at work.
So unless you’re directly acknowledging, lavishing praise and love on all the thankless stuff your wife is doing, you don’t have a leg to stand on.
E: huh. Didn’t know this was a red pill /c. Guess men are justified in complaining while we ignore women facing the same problem.
Well, that seems unhealthy as hell as well. This is the whole stoic to a fault bullshit for both partners now. I'd say vent to your partner and let your partner vent to you about your shitty days. Why live your life together but not be able to share your burdens? Just my two cents though.
Why is working put forward as some sort of prize?
Because when you leave work, you generally don't have to keep doing it when you get home. Being a stay at home parent tends to be from eyes open to eyes closed kind of gig. There's a lot of planning that goes into every day, and some of it needs to be planned ahead of time. Things like dinners, for example. Or the doctors appointments someone else mentioned. Or that laundry needs to get done, dishes out away, shit I still need to go shopping for food for the next week, and while I'm out I need to fill this prescription, and after that I need to make sure I'm on time to pick the kids up from school. And once we all get home I need to make sure that they do any assigned homework or practice their instrument. And FUCK I FORGOT TO PULL MEAT OUT OF THE FREEZER.
Being the stay at home parent is a LOT of work... And it never ends. Parents don't get weekends off or union mandated lunch breaks.
And when the other half gets home from work, a lot of times the expectation is that they won't have to do much at home.
A lot of times going to work means you get to focus on something else and don't have to make all the decisions. The mental load gets shifted. You're getting told what to do rather than having to plan it all out. It's not always the case, but I'd argue that the majority of times it is.
And that's one of the things that can be difficult about being a parent and in a relationship. Making sure you're doing what you can to help lighten the load on your other half. And hell .. I'd argue that should be the case regardless of your parental status. Always be trying to make life easier for each other. Don't ever let it be one way.
Maybe pre 2000s. NOwadays, man are very much involved in every aspect of the family if given the chance. I get most men still don't care but it's changing!
This might be a rare scenario. Both me and my wife work long hours. I am more in charge of the family, kids, chores, and fixing our house. She took everything for granted until one day I stopped doing chores that i have been nagging her for years to do so i can focus on issues surrounding the house(we own a large century old house) I am also the one on top of our kids health, diet, and education. Oh, I cook for the family. Sometimes I told her I am the MoM and the Dad and she's the friend. Friend can't raise friends.
Every time I confront the responsibility among us and that she should Mom up, my mom, her mom, and my wife starts accusing me for being difficult.
I had home cooked food on the table every night and I got no recognition from the 3 women in my life. When she made something once in a bluemoon, she got all the praise. My mom dare to gell me I gotta start cooking more for the family. Lmao. I can never win.
I am trans, mtf...
Being a woman is easier and this is why
I'm gender queer, and am biologically male, but presented femininely and used she/her and a feminine name for 7 years or so.
The first time I experienced a good friend seeming like we only interact regularly because they're interested in dating/hooking up with me warped the way I relate to other people and really helped me understand why women are often so guarded against advances. Men and women deal with very different issues, but both are very real. It's nice to see people talking about the issues men face also. The way our society treats people on the basis of gender sucks dogshit :(
Homie's got a Yu-Gi-Oh card description for gender xD
Lol, I don't generally describe how I got where I am with gender, but the context is relevant to describing the experience I had with that friend
But if I had a yu-gi-oh card it'd have some dope art 😤 I want a sweet-ass mech monster
Yeah I'm just playing 😅. Mech monster sounds dope af though
Men have it really hard. So hard, in fact, that people are increasingly turning towards the manosphere.
Rather than taking the terminally online Reddit mod approach of ostracizing MRA's, incels, MGTOW, red pillers, etc, we should be asking ourselves why people increasingly turn to these movements.
Andrew Tate is a symptom, not a cause of our societal ills, and that is hugely concerning. A deeply misogynistic sex trafficker should not be the role model that today's youth look up to.
Not trying to downtalk your overall point, but I've not really seen young guys talk about Tate. It's mostly end 20s in my experience.
Definitely not the case here in England. My SIL works as a Science teacher and the amount of Andrew Tate stuff she's seen pupils spreading around...
Reddit acknowledges and allows subreddits like r/TheRedPill and r/FemaleDatingStrategy, it is a sponsor of hate and controversy because it allows more profit through sensationalist engagement and data collection.
Yeah I can't even say you're many suicide hotline dm's I've got for having a different opinion than someone. Ha ha, so funny, this site and its ilk (reddit) do their best to inflame, pass judgement and exacerbate.
I've got two trans guy friends and I often check in with them on my discord server to make sure they're doing okay. Unfortunately we have one person who is the total opposite of the rest of us. I mean the "the trans idea is pushed by big medicine" type. Other than their views, they get along well in the server and i accommodate everyone there. If one of the two trans guys wish for the other person to be blocked from their channel, I do that, so they have a place they can talk without being looked down upon.
There's. Ricky Gervais show called Derrick, every time I feel I need to just bawl my eyes out I binge that show, it hits you right in the emotions but in a way that makes you feel good.
I highly suggest anyone who feels like they're nothing or can't contribute to society or just anyone who enjoys a feel good mockumentary to give that show a burl
I wish my dad would reach out and talk with someone about issues. My sister died last year and he decided he didn't want to talk to his good friend about it because his friend still has two daughters and won't know what it is like.
He doesn't have anyone to talk to except for me and my mom, he won't do therapy to get through his guilt of surviving cancer while she didn't survive it which if he went to therapy he would realize is ridiculous to have because they were different cancers.
My mom at least is going through therapy which is helping her get through the loss.
Yes, it's his fault for not doing this thing. We've incorporated the message.
Love this. 🫂
Got 2 similar situations here these days, very hard times for my cousin. Try to be there as much as I can & unconditionally, of course. Hope it helps a little bit. On the other side of the spectrum: my father is slowly dying and the male part of his (numerous) new family is completely oblivious about talking about it or doing something different than "supporting the emotional women". That contrast is baffling. Guess what part lives out in the country and what part is more "city folks"...
You've gone off the deep end. What you have written above is so filled with rage I would take a break from this discussion.
I accept that you truly believe what you have written above, but it doesn't help people heal to play victim olympics. And it doesn't help anyone when you dismiss their expression of the systemic injustices they face.
No to all of what you just said.
Honestly, whete I am coming from is that I think you are more aware of the injustices that you face than injustices others face. It is tricky to really empathise with the 'other' or 'out' group.
Yes, this is an example of the kind of comment that someone might interpret to mean a devaulation of the problems they experience. Not really something that is helpful to have in a post about grief at a lost child.
Ranting about your issue on a post about someone else's issue isn't cool.
If you'd like to talk about policing victim's language, or even your friend who is struggling, that is fine. This is a big platform and there's space for that.
OP has a legit issue and a legit gripe. It's a shitty thing to try to make this thread about something else.
I dont think anyone here said the main issue is women, and if they said they're in the minoriy(I hope) Patriarchy created many issues for both women and men, tho more for women This thread is talking about a serious and real issue, and you are diverting the topic
This thread is about how often men going through hard times arent helped and told to deal with it, I dont think its their fault for wanting to be helped
Yes, what you said here was true, the issue was mostly created by men. But most people here didnt blame it on women, you were the one to think that
I like how in attacking the original image's message you only support it
Please show me where this was said or implied anywhere in the image. It literally says the exact opposite of this.
As a man who is basically dead inside, probably, in the long run, due to men. I tend to use the phrase "I hate people" not because I'm avoiding the whole thing of saying I hate men or I hate women but people generally suck. All of the reasons you have listed above apply to people as a whole.
I'm not defending the opposing side of your argument because I fully understand it, women probably do face those things in large proportions due to men, but I have been told, in the grand scheme of things, probably an equal number of times to man up or grow a pair by men and women alike. When I say I'm dead inside, I don't physically know how to display any actual emotion, (anger and humour are the 2 most prominent if you count humour as an emotion) so simply by voicing something that I don't like or making a complaint is enough for people to think I'm not being manly enough.
I still have a circle of people I care about and I'm almost sure they care about me but I would still say I hate people.
So you didn't even bother reading the whole reply. You're part of the problem.
And after sharing my experiences, you wonder why I might be that way. You argue for the reasoning why some women say they hate men and as soon as someone says women aren't all angels you get defensive. Look in the mirror, the patriarchy you hate, you're part of it.
Only if you look down on women, I don't. Maybe you should have a little more respect for women.
Also, I never said I hate women, in fact, I said that I don't use that phrase because people are equal in my eyes and people cause the problems.
you got some black friends too?
"Patriarchy"
Said someone who doesn't understand what that actually means. The toxic masculinity in this post is the exact type of shit to go "lol but guys the patriarchy" like it isn't a fully fuckin defined concept in sociology. Don't let the patriarchy win, don't be toxic.
Sociology is a bit silly.
Women don't care about men. "It's the men that are in the wrong"
Had me until the last point. Maybe women need to change their behaviours? Maybe they are responsible for themselves and not controlled by men 24/7?
The belief that toxic masculinity is harmful to men as much as women is not incompatible with recognizing that women still deal with systemic misogyny. In fact, they're two sides of the same coin, the outdated perception that men must always be strong and stoic to protect the weak and emotional women.
Did I say anything to disagree with you?
What I am talking about is women not making a change that they are responsible for and instead avoiding responsibility and blaming it on men.
Maybe they already know that. Not to mention, self destructive views of masculinity, perpetuated primarily by MEN, is obviously the fault of women.
Besides, any woman who dared act like you need their help would almost certainly earn nothing but your scorn.
Take your foolish hot take and go home. Adults are talking.
Maybe you should actually talk to men rather than talking for them.
You're not all knowing.
Even in that post the two men both said they got support from men but not women.
Time and time again you can look up question on the Internet like "Men why don't you open up to women?" "Why don't you cry in front of your girlfriend?" Etc etc. Its always full on men saying "I did that is was a huge mistake, I learnt my lesson." Then they say women either lost respect for them and dumped them immediately or as soon as an argument happened they used their insecurities against them.
What women don't seem to understand is guys can call each other cocksuckers but also be there for them when they need it. Girls don't call their guy friends names but importantly they aren't there for them.
Maybe you could use this as a learning exercise? I have been in very macho environments and with guys. Most have been approachable and helpful. Girls not so much.
Have you considered that your experiences in macho environments with guys could be primarily due to your appearance and demeanor? And that your experiences with women being unapproachable could be due to that same appearance and demeanor, as well as the institutionalized power dynamics and physical inequalities between men and women?
I'm not saying that it's easy to connect on a deep emotional level with platonic female friends (or romantic partners) as a man. I'm just saying that it's not necessarily because women are intentionally excluding you; like someone elsewhere in the thread said, many men have been victimized of the patriarchy, too.
Maybe I should give more context. I have been in macho environments but not exclusively. I'm saying a typical macho environments that some women think is horrific and uncaring, is actually more caring and better for mental health of a man than any female relationship outside of a close intimate one.
I'm an guy with a bang in the middle BMI. But I have played rugby a lot and I have done things like camping, fighting, roughhousing, drinking. I'm a typical man's, man not an extreme example just an average one. I grew up with females friends, had female friends in school, uni and post. Lived with girls. Best friend in work was a girl. Old friendship group from my hometown is 50:50 guys:girls
I believe I'm fairly approachable as a guy and not threatening.
Women are terrible at giving sympathy or comfort to men. Whenever you voice your insecurities to them it's a mistake. The "worst", most "toxic masculinitiy" environments are better than the best women encounter (outside of relationships or your mum)
The additional context is helpful, and I'm not trying to minimize your experiences. I'm just saying that an average guy who's played rugby and is a "typical man's man" can be inherently and unintentionally threatening to women, even if you personally have a friendly relationship with those women. Now some of this is likely cultural and country specific. I'm guessing from your reply times and mentioning rugby, uni, and camping that you're from Aus (or at least not the US). Most of my background is in the western US, so I understand that in your situation, things are probably totally different than my experiences. However, I have also spent lots of time in mixed friend groups, in traditional male-dominated areas (including rugby teams, interestingly), in very conservative spaces (as a very liberal person), and my experiences have been markedly different than yours.
The issue isn't necessarily you. Women have been trained through long and often traumatic personal histories that men, especially traditionally masculine men, are dangerous. Add to that the fact that when you start to open up about emotional issues, your behavior starts to deviate from "normal" guy behavior. Not a problem, except that now you're an average guy (which usually means significantly larger and stronger than an average woman) who is behaving in unexpected ways, which means you're unpredictable from the point of view of a woman.
None of her perception or fear is your fault, but it is literally a dangerous situation from the woman's point of view.
I don't necessarily disagree; I'm just trying to get you to think about whether that's because women don't care or because in nearly every culture, women need to be exceptionally cautious around men, especially men in emotional distress that might behave unpredictably. Even if they know you really well under normal circumstances, when you start to deviate from "normal" behavior, women need to be on their guard.
And that's where you lose me. Yes, "masculine environments" can be a great place to open up and get emotional support, but they can also reinforce harmful habits and act as an echo chamber (much like male-dominated internet discourse). I'm not saying that you should replace your male friends with female friends, or that you should stop talking to your male friends. I'm just saying that women can also provide that support in many circumstances (in my experience).
If you're consistently having bad experiences when you talk about emotional issues with women, then it may be the way you present the issues, the group dynamics, or the specific women that you choose to open up to. To say point blank that "The worst, most 'toxic masculinity' environments are better than the best women encounter" is where I disagree.
I'm saying women being horrible and hurtful to men is something they need to work on. Using men as an excuse for why women can be horrible is unacceptable.
Let me ask you a question. Are all the stereotypical incels right how they treat women because some women have treated some man bad? No. So why are you saying the inverse is acceptable? That's the only point I'm making. Women need to do a lot better with handling themselves. That's not mens fault. Honestly this conversation is a waste of time.
For thr record. I'm Welsh and I was in Aus for a time but now I'm in NZ. Coincidently I seen two guys get dumped, one from each country. One happened just after dad died. Other happened when he went home to his nans funeral over the phone.
Rugby is integral to all three of those cultures and women are regularly involved. All blacks are everywhere and are a cultural icon on every from of adverstimement. You're mistaking how men only that is.
Lol. Yeah, maybe start by being open with women? Like it or not, conforming to what you think a woman expects is you being dishonest; when you only later open up, your own actions contradict the expectation that you previously set.
And, no, the entire Internet is not filled with this incel crap. Maybe the corners you frequent? Who knows.
Perpetuating the failures of our broken patriarchal system does not, in fact, justify it's existence. Furthermore, starting with this misogynistic crap is nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy. But you know what? You do you. At least the chances of you passing this ignorant hatred to your kids will be practically non-existent...
Oh, and uh, no, i have no reason to "learn" misogyny; I happen to be blessed with an amazing relationship specifically because I do NOT subscribe to this useless crap.
In short, you're wrong, and always will be. Feel free to whine about it, I don't care. I'm done with this discussion.
I'm open enough with women.
But you got to be realistic. Generally women are sexist, they do like things certain ways, they do expect ideals.
Surprise surprise women aren't as perfect as you think. Not all problems in the world are due to men.
Women can do a lot better and they should. Rather than just passing the blame they should improve on their own sexist views.
I don't know why women treating men like shit is mens fault. It happens from childhood too, are you going to say a 5 year old boy is responsiblefor being mistreated by an adult woman? Belive it or not women are responsible for their actions
Didn't say they were perfect, and didn't say their actions are your fault. I did say YOUR actions are yours, and yours alone.
And, dude...that's the only thing you can control. Frankly, whether you are right or wrong in the views you've stated is irrelevant. All you're gonna accomplish is twisting yourself up inside over things you cannot change.
Most importantly, if you use other people's choices as an excuse to be a shit person, that just guarantees a pattern of lose-lose scenarios in your life. If you're trying to be miserable, then go for it. But if not, well, you can only control yourself; all other "power" is an illusion.
Another way to put it: the only problems that matter are the ones that are yours. Other people's problems or choices are just a distraction; that shit ain't gonna take you anywhere. At least not anywhere you want to be. If you're not satisfied with something in life, that's on you to figure out. Blame is useless - it's not a solution, it's a trap.
I agree the only problems are your own.
Sometimes it is nice to have help with your problems though. If you are a man and want help with your problems your only choice is to confide in another man.
Women do not want to help men but they expect help from them.
That doesn't make me miserable that's just accepting the world the way it is and it's a life lesson men tend to learn the hard way. That does that mean you should be a shit person at all, it doesn't mean you should be miserable. All it is is reality that women will expect you to help with their problems but they will not help with yours. Its a harsh truth and life is better once you see it.
Uh, sure buddy. My partner is apparently imaginary, given that women who want to help men don't exist.
Anyway, choosing to harbor a prejudice against literally half of the human race does, in fact, make you a shit person.
well, you learn to cope with that eventually. the man is the strong one, the woman is the sentimental one, no matter what equality people want.
Or they just kill themselves. Male suicide rates are way higher than woman's.
yeah, some guys can't cope with all the responsibility they have. well, "some"... many.
"Yeah what if they kill themselves? Their fault"
Who taught you this, and why are you still listening to them?
life taught me that. it's just how it is mate.
Well…I’m really sorry that you were never emotionally supported by your social circles because of your gender. That truly is unfair.
why? it is fair, it's how it's been for thousands if not millions of years. it's just who we are.
No it’s not. Biologically speaking there is no difference between male and female brains that justifies having half the human population’s emotional needs neglected. It’s all down to arbitrary social rules and barriers about male stoicism that do not apply to modern day society.
If you want to tough it out, feel free to, but only because you personally chose to do it. Not because “That’s how it has always been” or because you’ll be ridiculed by others. All men should be able to choose what emotions they show, when to show them, and how to show them without fearing ridicule.
so if i tell you for example that my life sucks and i've lost everything and fucked up every chance that i was given by some miraculous faith you would care like there's not enough shit going on in your own life? we, men, are who we are because everyone got their own problems and their own shit going on in their own lives, so it's just a waste of time, energy and sanity to care about other men's wellbeing if you don't have a real bond with them. if i start to care about every guy on the internet and care about their problems i will just kill myself eventually, and i don't expect a different treatment to myself either. it is what it is.
I mean I would care as much as I can for an internet stranger.
I never said anything about caring about every man ever, but you don’t seem to realize that you don’t even care about the men in your life if you apply the same “Tough it out then kill yourself” attitude to them as you’re espousing right now.
And do you think women don’t have equally heavy issues going on in their lives? Do you think no woman out there has ever lost everything and fucked up every chance they get? But societally speaking it’s more acceptable to get help and talk about their fuck ups without judgement.
I’m clearly not going to change your mind, but like…I hope you can talk to someone about the stuff you’re dealing with, or at least give yourself some grace and forgiveness. Existence is really hard already.
I care and I sincerely hope that your life doesn't suck. Also, I personally don't find it to be a waste of time to care about anyone's well being or problems, so if you need to unload anything, I'll listen.
"so if i tell you for example that my life sucks and i’ve lost everything and fucked up every chance that i was given"
Have you considered that your depression might be influencing your perspective on this?
Totally unrelated to my last reply, but you might find this interesting. Not sure I've read anything that explains so much about human behavior. I read it a time or two a year. Let me know what you think.
https://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html
Sorry you're taking such an ass beating here. But I guess you deserve it for expressing your opinions and hurt, daring to say how it is out loud.
These people are proving your points with every fucking downvote.
"Shut up. Suck it up. Take a beating otherwise."
Yeah, I get you.
That shit ain't fair mate, don't gaslight yourself
Strange way to say “my parents treated me like garbage, and I failed to break the cycle.”
Strange way to victim blame here...
I'm sorry you've been misled.
that's the issue bro. that's why we need change
There's much to be said regarding our primate brains. We can't just "improve society" and change hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.
We can certainly do better, but there are practical limits on our monkey brains.