The point you're missing is that it doesn't matter if their intentions are honest or not now because even if they are (that conditional is a seriously important word there!) there's no way to ensure they will remain that way.
There is no safe way to bring surveillance capitalism into a commons, no matter how pure the motive may or may not be at the moment.
Does Meta have a plan to stop Fediverse instances from defederating with meta?
Unlike consumers, server hosts and admins have actual material stakes in the Fediverse and are fully capable of coordination. So rather than an ineffective consumer boycott, there'd be actual power behind it.
I finally arrive at a platform that I believe in, open source, hosted by the people, developed by the people and financed by the people. Barely a day later I learn that even this wretched gaze of Facebook looks over to us with an hungry eye.
Yet, as much as I despise them. I can only feel pity for those who join them. This is our corner of the web, they are our enemy and wish to invade and destroy us to feed their never ending greed. They are an aged paranoid king trying to kill a potential usurper right in the crib.
They do not own the web, and they can only usurp us if we let then. We are a federation, and we hold the keys to our world. We may have to grow slowly, and may even be the smaller portion of the Fediverse.
But you know what? That's okay, we don't have to be the biggest, to have the capacity for the world's masses. Our members are the geeks that founded this place, as well as the refugees that believe that power belongs in a democracy, not in an unaccountable dictatorship.
As they squeeze their audience we may soon find the last missing piece come to us, creators. They have their fears of course, ad revenue hardly exists on these lands, yet many find themselves just as or even more reliant on fan support than what their platform provides. On one hand always worrying about the ever present executioner's axe that will cut month's worth of work if they dare be mature or step out of what's acceptable for a bitter, old, lonesome soul while seeing utter filth fly unscathed to every eyeball imaginable because they are advertisers and paid for the front row seats. Nothing in life comes free, but we can help make the systems that make it easier and better for all of us.
I don't know what the future holds, but I know what I want out of this little corner of the web, and that is to exist as a person, part of a community, not a fucking walking credit card.
Going deep into the academic rabbit hole (and pushing myself to contribute more) - take a look at Julie Cohen's work if you haven't. She frames a lot of this out - namely the need to actively code the conditions for human flourishing into digital architecture - and It helps her book (Configuring the Networked Self) is freely available online.
Me, a stubborn old gen x'er. : "I will leave every platform, until none are left!" Im very saddened to hear "we" have caught the hungry eye of the beast. "Can't beat em? Join em.... Then beat them..."
That's why I'm not only on kbin.social, I have a Tildes account, a Squabbles account, and other small forum accounts. I also lurk Fark, Metafilter and Hacker News. It feels like playing whack-a-mole but I'm the mole. But I figure spreading myself around will help me not have to scramble, as I did with Reddit (and Twitter, and some other forums I'm on that disappeared overnight or were infiltrated by trolls and are almost impossible to visit now).
I don't have a Facebook, I don't use messenger, Instagram, whatever new crap they make, and I certainly don't want them to gather data on me, just because we happen to use the same protocol. Fuck meta.
Bit out of the loop - What's Meta, and what's its issue with joining Fediverse? I assume Meta isn't the same as the company behind Facebook (if it is, why does it want to join Fediverse?)
That's exactly the Meta we're talking about. The most likely explanation is that Facebook wants to compete with Twitter and/or Bluesky and is planning to build an app using the ActivityPub protocol, which is what sites like Mastodon and Lemmy use to communicate with each other. Basically the idea seems to be that Instagram users will be able to communicate with the rest of the Fediverse.
Two weeks ago, it turned out a couple of mods of the larger instances had had secret (!) meetings with Meta. In a reaction, a group of instances decided to start a pact to preemptively block Meta.
These mods signed NDA's in order to meet with Meta. This means they cannot share what was discussed. This is one of the reasons there are so many rumours about Meta's plans and how these meetings fit in.
Fuck Facebook, but they kind of have to have those conversations under NDA. The rules on insider trading for publicly traded companies are strict, and you have to make sure conversations that impact your big picture strategy stay private and only become public through specific channels.
Yeah Meta is Facebook, the tl;dr is that it wants to use its "embrace extend extinguish" strategy to destroy the fediverse as we know it. That "How To Kill A Decentralised Network" article linked upthread explains how.
I'm starting to be convinced. Meta will probably really fuck with the ecosystem of apps and standards. That's going to be a pain. I could still be convinced that federation with a standards compliant Meta server is bad, though I'm not quite there yet.
You're still stuck in the mindset of surveillance capitalism. To an instance, users are a cost item, not a profit item. Meta/Alphabet/et al want all teh yoozers because that's where they siphon up the data that makes them their money. Users are a small cost item compared to the income they get from that data.
A Mastodon or Calckey or Lemmy or whatever instance doesn't make bank from having a huge user count. There's no incentive to vacuum up all teh yoozers.
As for living with Meta: I've been living fine without Meta for almost a decade now. If Meta fucks up the fediverse, I live without the fediverse. Easy peasy. I genuinely don't comprehend this whole defeatist attitude. "Well, it sucks, but we have to use it." No. No you fucking don't. You can just, you know, not use it. It really is that simple.
Maybe it's the fact I spent my formative years without the Internet being a thing that has me not think of Internet services as essential-cannot-live-without-OMG things.
similar things have happened in the past, How to Kill a Decentralised Network (such as the Fediverse)
Yes, that's an excellent post as well. I would add this one too: https://ianbetteridge.com/2023/06/21/meta-and-mastodon-whats-really-on-peoples-minds/
I was one of the people who thought meta joining the fediverse could be good, but that convinced me that we need to keep them out.
Thanks for posting that
all the big players want is to eradicate competitions, especially one that can threaten their position.
It could be good, but it won't be.
Even if their current intentions are honest, someday that will change and some exec or VP will see an untapped revenue source and exploit it.
It's meta. Their intentions are never honest.
The point you're missing is that it doesn't matter if their intentions are honest or not now because even if they are (that conditional is a seriously important word there!) there's no way to ensure they will remain that way.
There is no safe way to bring surveillance capitalism into a commons, no matter how pure the motive may or may not be at the moment.
Embrace Extend Extinguish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
It sounds like the evil empire's motto in a scifi. But this is their business plan.
Does Meta have a plan to stop Fediverse instances from defederating with meta?
Unlike consumers, server hosts and admins have actual material stakes in the Fediverse and are fully capable of coordination. So rather than an ineffective consumer boycott, there'd be actual power behind it.
I finally arrive at a platform that I believe in, open source, hosted by the people, developed by the people and financed by the people. Barely a day later I learn that even this wretched gaze of Facebook looks over to us with an hungry eye.
Yet, as much as I despise them. I can only feel pity for those who join them. This is our corner of the web, they are our enemy and wish to invade and destroy us to feed their never ending greed. They are an aged paranoid king trying to kill a potential usurper right in the crib.
They do not own the web, and they can only usurp us if we let then. We are a federation, and we hold the keys to our world. We may have to grow slowly, and may even be the smaller portion of the Fediverse.
But you know what? That's okay, we don't have to be the biggest, to have the capacity for the world's masses. Our members are the geeks that founded this place, as well as the refugees that believe that power belongs in a democracy, not in an unaccountable dictatorship.
As they squeeze their audience we may soon find the last missing piece come to us, creators. They have their fears of course, ad revenue hardly exists on these lands, yet many find themselves just as or even more reliant on fan support than what their platform provides. On one hand always worrying about the ever present executioner's axe that will cut month's worth of work if they dare be mature or step out of what's acceptable for a bitter, old, lonesome soul while seeing utter filth fly unscathed to every eyeball imaginable because they are advertisers and paid for the front row seats. Nothing in life comes free, but we can help make the systems that make it easier and better for all of us.
I don't know what the future holds, but I know what I want out of this little corner of the web, and that is to exist as a person, part of a community, not a fucking walking credit card.
Absolutely.
Going deep into the academic rabbit hole (and pushing myself to contribute more) - take a look at Julie Cohen's work if you haven't. She frames a lot of this out - namely the need to actively code the conditions for human flourishing into digital architecture - and It helps her book (Configuring the Networked Self) is freely available online.
Me, a stubborn old gen x'er. : "I will leave every platform, until none are left!" Im very saddened to hear "we" have caught the hungry eye of the beast. "Can't beat em? Join em.... Then beat them..."
That's why I'm not only on kbin.social, I have a Tildes account, a Squabbles account, and other small forum accounts. I also lurk Fark, Metafilter and Hacker News. It feels like playing whack-a-mole but I'm the mole. But I figure spreading myself around will help me not have to scramble, as I did with Reddit (and Twitter, and some other forums I'm on that disappeared overnight or were infiltrated by trolls and are almost impossible to visit now).
Yeah, I'm sick of being Zucc'd, Musk'd, and Spez'd.
Not to say I don't trust Meta, but I don't trust them...
I trust meta implicitly. I don't like what I trust them to do. But I trust that they will do it
I don't have a Facebook, I don't use messenger, Instagram, whatever new crap they make, and I certainly don't want them to gather data on me, just because we happen to use the same protocol. Fuck meta.
Oh even if youβve never made an account, FB is tracking you and has data on you.
FB has its hooks on almost every website around.
If you don't know how to disable those hooks, yes.
Bit out of the loop - What's Meta, and what's its issue with joining Fediverse? I assume Meta isn't the same as the company behind Facebook (if it is, why does it want to join Fediverse?)
That's exactly the Meta we're talking about. The most likely explanation is that Facebook wants to compete with Twitter and/or Bluesky and is planning to build an app using the ActivityPub protocol, which is what sites like Mastodon and Lemmy use to communicate with each other. Basically the idea seems to be that Instagram users will be able to communicate with the rest of the Fediverse.
Two weeks ago, it turned out a couple of mods of the larger instances had had secret (!) meetings with Meta. In a reaction, a group of instances decided to start a pact to preemptively block Meta.
Technically every meeting is secret if you don't tell the public
These mods signed NDA's in order to meet with Meta. This means they cannot share what was discussed. This is one of the reasons there are so many rumours about Meta's plans and how these meetings fit in.
Fuck Facebook, but they kind of have to have those conversations under NDA. The rules on insider trading for publicly traded companies are strict, and you have to make sure conversations that impact your big picture strategy stay private and only become public through specific channels.
I agree, you can't blame Meta for asking for NDA's, but the mods could have refused to sign them. Others have done so since: https://fosstodon.org/@kev/110592625692688836
Yeah Meta is Facebook, the tl;dr is that it wants to use its "embrace extend extinguish" strategy to destroy the fediverse as we know it. That "How To Kill A Decentralised Network" article linked upthread explains how.
I found this to be a good explanation:
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
Thank you for the link, it explains a lot
It is Facebook Meta. The why is harder. I guess they want a piece of the Reddit pie, or want to take over the fediverse.
I'm starting to be convinced. Meta will probably really fuck with the ecosystem of apps and standards. That's going to be a pain. I could still be convinced that federation with a standards compliant Meta server is bad, though I'm not quite there yet.
Very useful. Finally something written in a way that everyone can understand
You're still stuck in the mindset of surveillance capitalism. To an instance, users are a cost item, not a profit item. Meta/Alphabet/et al want all teh yoozers because that's where they siphon up the data that makes them their money. Users are a small cost item compared to the income they get from that data.
A Mastodon or Calckey or Lemmy or whatever instance doesn't make bank from having a huge user count. There's no incentive to vacuum up all teh yoozers.
As for living with Meta: I've been living fine without Meta for almost a decade now. If Meta fucks up the fediverse, I live without the fediverse. Easy peasy. I genuinely don't comprehend this whole defeatist attitude. "Well, it sucks, but we have to use it." No. No you fucking don't. You can just, you know, not use it. It really is that simple.
Maybe it's the fact I spent my formative years without the Internet being a thing that has me not think of Internet services as essential-cannot-live-without-OMG things.