Before leaving Lemmygrad, I want to have a discussion on my "weird misogyny takes". No drama, just possibly a simple closure.
Final Edit: I have decided to take a break from here for undecided time. I might come back when sure of myself. Limited activity at main instance.
Edit: I am replying, so please refer to them to get an idea of my worldview.
Context: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/650259 and these removed comments of mine, before Forte temp banned me
::: spoiler a screenshot of my comments :::
Before I start off, I want to tell that it is true that I am a cis het male human that holds monogamist views with the mildest of traditional takes. It is also true that despite never having had a real mother or a girlfriend in my life, I never became an incel. My mindset at the core is unapologetically survivalist, independent and masculine. I have also been chivalrous with women, and have been inclusive of the non binary communities. Some people will try to portray this as me never getting female love in life and all kinds of assumption based crap, which I can counter with years of selfless privacy community work.
I want to know what is so misogynistic about:
- a woman having multiple boyfriends and being a social player, which is very common today in the dating scene
- traditional views like monogamy instead of promiscuity are better
- social code being different for men and women
- women often dating for free food
- Western feminism not being a true representation of feminism, and how much it currently harms mainly men, and creating polarisation between both sexes
- psychology of dominance and submission in relationships factoring into the stability of any long term relationships, including marriage
Is it not deceitful to deny these patterns exist, and to just call someone misogynistic and shut down the conversation? Or have I misunderstood what Lemmygrad means for these kinds of conversations?
When did this place become so lib, that people were straight up told to "change your ways before you end up ruining a poor girl’s life", or how "using 'male' and 'female' to refer to men and women as if they're animals" is a terminology that radical feminists would otherwise get excused for? What are these assumed ideas I have that are so batshit crazy, compared to the kinds of values that hardcore masculinity gurus, Tate fans, incels/femcels hold? And what is the defined threshold expected for this place to accommodate people?
I hope I do not see a "404:site_ban" before I get to engage and get answers on this, and have a decent conversation. I am not threatening. I merely want a dialogue.
Most radfems are also against trans people. Does this automatically give you the excuse to start being transphobic too? Despite that neither we use dehumanizing terms like "male" and "female"; nor do we believe in transphobic nonsense, so what's your excuse here?
Of course, you weren't being transphobic back in the thread but I mentioned this because, as you say, "radfems use it so it's okay if I use it too".
What, do you think we treat radfems like comrades or something? Lmfao no. Most of them can go to hell like their libfem counterparts.
It's not "lib" to see women as something more than what you imagine women to be (merely just a pre-programmed set of behaviors without any differences or chances of growth, improvements or changes whatsoever).
Sure, some could have a few traits as mentioned above (only human after all, and some humans are scummy regardless of gender); but to say all women are like that is straight up falling towards Incel/MGTOW territory.
Very, very interesting how rather than using polygamy, you used promiscuity though. 🙂
And besides...
So fucking what? You men can get away with bedding lots of women and society barely bats an eye. It's only when women do the same that you guys start seething. What, do you also believe in manospherical nonsenses like how virgin women are "magical" and that a "player" woman is just "used and dried up"?
Are these set in stone, huh? So much for being a fucking leftist if you believe in this regressing shit.
What, did you had like bad experiences with women in the past that made you develop these thoughts? Or is it the fact that you got exposed to misogynist youtubers (as a kid)? I know they are extremely popular on the subcontinent, living there myself.
That clarifies one point, thanks.
I never said all women. I do not engage in liberal/fascist generalisation behaviours like that. However, many women in urban areas do have one or more of these behaviours, thanks to the incredible amount of sexualisation of mass media creating construed images of reality in womens' heads.
Yes, I wanted to gauge a reaction on this. Polygamy is harmful for both sexes and for society as a whole. I want to cover this bit in the next part where you made a massive generalisation.
Let me tell you a few things. Women are the gatekeepers of relationships, which includes sexual relations. If a woman says no, man will go home. And these "you men" are not all men, but probably the 10% fuckboys that engage with a lot of misled women, again, thanks to oversexualisation of mass media. This happens mostly during post teenage years upto early 30s for both sexes.
Another point I want to make is that a woman is considered purer than men for the single most important reason – she has the womb and she has to be in a healthy state to carry the baby. Woman is the one who will procreate, not the man. I know that the fuckboys/fuckgirls rationalisation is imbalanced, which is precisely why I think sex is a sacred thing, and it is not meant to be abused by anyone. Obsession with sex, drugs et al is bad for a valid reason.
Chivalry is dead. Good men never get rewarded with healthy relationships in society, until an arranged marriage in most cases has to happen. Good women either are corrupted by mass media, or get tired of the incredibly conservative families they live in, and end up marrying people they do not inherently truly love.
There are certain social codes for men and women that are simply going to exist, unless bizarre things like artificial wombs come into existence, erasing the codependency of man and woman. Yes, there are things that can be improved on both ends, and it is a very long conversation.
No bad experiences made me develop particular thoughts. However, one feminist whose friend I loved back in college, did tell me that my self improvement did not matter to anyone, and tried to rage bait me as well. That solidified my thoughts on liberals and not women.
I never watched Tate or Shapiro or the likes, but I try to watch a healthy mix of content, mostly averaging as moderate on the spectrum. Matthew Hussey, Kevin Samuels, J-Hall and Whatever podcast. I keep a very tight hold on what views are shared there, selectively discarding anything that goes too conservative. These tubers are not incels or MGTOW, but closer to a mix of redpill/blackpill, mostly hovering around centre or centre-right.
Polygamy / Polyandry is not harmful to society in any way, in fact it was the default for most of human history.
It was only under feudalism that the control over women's bodies began, since sexual control / repression is needed to secure heirs for control of inherited capital. Under collectivist arrangements, unknown fathers are actually beneficial, since then children become those of the entire tribe. Many cultures even had beliefs that children had several fathers, and inherited the best traits of each of them.
Read sex at dawn, and the caliban and the witch for more on this.
Regarding polygamy, there is a study that many people will not like. I do not think it is healthy, and just because something has been done eternally, does not mean it is correct to continue doing. Is that not what breaking down the medieval ideas, that still exist in society as it is, all about?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-at-any-age/201304/the-long-term-psychological-effects-of-having-multiple-sex
I will try to skim through that literature, thanks for the rec.
Did you not even read that article? First of all, all the participants are from one country, which in itself limits its usefulness. Secondly, there is a huge issue with correlation/causation, is it that people who engage in casual sex might engage in more drinking/drugs?
Most importantly, even if we disregard everything above, it would prove nothing. It just says that people who have lots of sex also drink/use drugs more. It even mentions it in the article itself, the likely reason why women are more affected is due to the societal pressures.
We live in a society that is very hostile to polygamy. Which is probably the reason most people would find negative consequences for engaging in it. This will be the same for any people that are engaging in something considered “weird”.
Why is one country demographic so limiting in this case, when USA's per capita PPP is extremely high? I would instead argue USA's cultural westernisation effect carries over to almost all countries sufficiently for this study to be valuable.
You think alcohol and drug abuse leads to a healthy life? It is a sign of deep internal instability. Why can you not see it comes down to these people hating the concept of committing to a partner, using each other like meat, thus revealing personality issues and internalised horrible ideas of how a society should be?
First of all it is not from the USA but from New Zealand. I am not saying that a study that is done on one country cannot provide some useful insight, but you should be aware of that, especially in studies like this. Societal norms are widely different across the world, so trying to argue for something like this should be done from research across the world.
No, and I never claimed to. Personally, I really don't like both alcohol and drug use. But I certainly wouldn't make such sweeping statements as.
Alcohol use in particular is highly culturally dependent. For example, my country is one of the highest alcohol consumers per capita, but we are a fairly happy country (at least as much as possible in this capitalist hellhole).
Btw, I just looked at the original study that that article is based on. It only concerned itself with cannabis and alcohol, and it didn't differentiate between those two. So again, not really a good source. Overall, I wouldn't base your opinion on something on one random article, especially when it just tries to summarize a paper. Try to at least read the original paper.
Source? I could think of many reasons why. People don't know what they like, so they want to explore both romantically and sexually. People evolve and change over time, and sometimes the partner they though are perfect actually wasn't. Or there are people that don't mind that their partners are having sex with other people. There are so many explanations of why someone would want to have sex with multiple partners, I really don't see why you would come to such a conclusion.
This very first point of the article is the exact opposite of everything you're trying to say here.
I never said it was necessarily depression. Substance abuse and alcohol abuse clearly is shown there. The concept of pair bonding is true to an extent, depending on how loyal people are. People engaging in casual sex are not loyal or committing people.
I forgot to supplement this with another study, a mistake I will correct now.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220930172620/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/more-sexual-partners-unhappy-marriage_n_5698440
And in the same breath, I would recommend this one as well. https://web.archive.org/web/20220124003810/https://ifstudies.org/blog/counterintuitive-trends-in-the-link-between-premarital-sex-and-marital-stability/
The default assumption of those studies you linked, is that monogamous marriage is good, and multiple partners bad. You're linking studies from patriarchal viewpoints which already share your own status-quo assumptions.
Again, monogamy is not the norm of history, and only arose with class society. You haven't done the reading so you haven't learned this yet.
Ignorance is bliss.
I think this has got more to do with sexually frustrated men and women carrying out their dark thoughts, breaking down, healing themselves to become better men and women, ending up becoming more satisfied, since at this point they are over their internal frustration and possibly traumatic issues. Sexual act does serve as a venting outlet.
I am not going to analyze both of these the same way as your first source, but, firstly, the second one is not even a paper, just a bunch of graphs with no methodology etc. Secondly, I would look at where are your sources coming from. Both of these are not scientific institutions and both of these are basically from the same source, which is conservative “think tank”.
If you want someone who explains how these statistics are often misleading, I would look at this video. It basically deals with the exact same arguments from Lauren Southern.
Please don't use random articles as sources for such statements. At least use something that is based on some real research, even though it is often flawed.
Even if you try your best to keep yourself from having views which you consider too far right, as the political overton window shifts more to the right, what ideas do you truly consider to be "centrist" or "centre-right" and not just right wing (if not far right) ideas which have recently become acceptable in mainstream/liberal media?
Also, usage of the terms "redpill" and "blackpill" in these contexts was popularized by the MGTOW (and Anti-SJW) movement. (I was once part of those circles back in 2014 even if I was still very young back then. Once you're in there, it's not very easy to get out; You need a lot of self-reflection to truly escape it. In fact, while my old views were largely toned down over the years by a supportive community back when I was in Junior High School, it took an entire pandemic to get me to reflect and escape, and I was still at risk of returning to some more dangerous views before I finally got into Marxism.)
Self-reflection is not an easy thing, and hopefully it shouldn't be too late for you.
This is absolutely repulsive. You realize that the center is about maintaining status quo, yes? The status quo is misogyny.
I do not think the reality is this simple. There is not a speck of doubt that misogyny has existed in society, but men have had their share of inequalities, like being the only demographic group to be conscripted during wars or emergency (includes current Russian SMO), men being the dominant group to be in military or in any dangerous factories or industrial facilities, men never having had an equivalent brotherhood like women have sisterhood throughout the times, men mostly never being given child custody in a broken marriage, and so on.
Moreover, women overwhelmingly prefer traditionalism once they are post 30s, and feminists actively cherrypick traditionalist roles to conform to, despite the general notion being advertised as destroying traditional societal roles. How would you categorise this as, women being okay with misogyny as it benefits them in long term, or women being unfaithful to feminist movement, or feminist movement derailed in some capacity and/or by within itself, or some other explanation?
You really do enjoy making blanket statements about women don't you.
You need some serious deprogramming of your misogynist ideas. Less talking, more reading.
I will process more diverse literature on this subject, but time is going to tell a lot of things. I do not think society is headed down a very bright path, and we are about to see highly turbulent times which will affect both sexes.
I will keep a cool head and consume multiple sources instead of looking it as a way to deprogram, atleast this is what I can conclude. I am in no way righteous, but I think this is a subject where nobody has correct views. Social interaction goes so deep that even the most experienced extroverts get thrown off regularly.
men are not an unified front that plans things behind womens backs, similarly, some random woman you see on the street is not conspiring against you specifically
you should have a social codes for
thats marginally less weird
monogamy and poligamy are both social contracts all participants must agree on, both are morally neutral
that dominance/submission thing i think its called power play, you can read about it if you want to, but its not a thing a majority of people will agree with you about it being necesary for relationships
going on a date just to get free food under capitalism is wealth redistribution. a woman's gotta eat and we make less money
don't just downvote me, cowards, show yourselves. explain to me why feeding women is a bad thing without devolving into misogyny somehow. because I don't see it.
Commies are supposed to feed people, are we not?
Why is polygamy (or in your words promiscuity) inherently worse than monogamy?
As long as it is acknowledged and agreed upon by everyone involved, there should be no issue. The only problem comes when one person thinks it's monogamy and the other breaks that trust.
The social player thing is not just a woman problem, in fact I'd say it's worse coming from men. As another commenter said, men do that shit all the time and only when women start to engage in similar behaviors does it become a problem. I don't think there's anything wrong with holding certain values for yourself, I myself could never be a social "player" (meaning casually sleeping around, if I'm interpreting that right) and am not interested in anyone who is, but that doesn't give you or me the right to pretend we're morally superior in that regard. I guess the only time I'd feel comfortable shitting on someone is if they're sleeping around while their partner is unaware. But that could just be trauma on my part, someone educate me if I'm wrong lol.
Anyways, I really suggest you take the time to read what some of our comrades here are recommending and digest/think where these thoughts are coming from.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-at-any-age/201304/the-long-term-psychological-effects-of-having-multiple-sex
The only issues are not limited to verbal acceptance and consent. There is something post that.
Men can be really aggressive thanks to testosterone, and women are nurturing and the birthgivers of human society. This forms a very large basis behind the social constructs that are binary gender roles we have today, that have remained stagnant since centuries. Biochemistry does not change, our scientific and social understanding grows as humans.
Social player in the way I say means man/woman who plays around with multiple relationship partners, not necessarily having casual sex, but exploiting them for monetary or social validation favours, although in many cases, casual sex is a factor.
I threw myself out here to see the responses I get, so I can read them, and if there are any good recs, which I think is the most important quality of a true leftist – self-critique. I am not sure if I want to stick around because I did not like how I was called a misogynist, silenced for 4 days, and that just made me feel miserable for what are conflicting views and not necessarily Tate-ist ideas.
It is for this exact reason that I made my previous comments, you don't seem to realize that you are dehumanizing women by breaking them down into their literal chemical components to assume how they will, or should, behave. This is the sort of thing I expect from some insane right wing eugenics nutjob, not a principled leftist.
Testosterone is not what makes men aggressive. Men do need testosterone to feel normal. Male aggression is a part of gender roles but it's not an essential element of masculinity.
This would mostly be fine if you held them for yourself but it's immediately clear from your writing that you don't hold them only for yourself but you hold those positions as normative and when you communicate you impose that position on the world. I like monogamy for myself. What I don't do is say that monogamy is inherently better, or that it is better for society, or that it ought to be the norm because it leads to better outcomes. This is important for you to understand because it underlies a lot of the criticism you are receiving. You're allowed to believe things about yourself. It's when you apply these beliefs to others that you run into problems.
Having masculinity at your core is a red flag. I've been a cis man my whole life and I don't feel the need to establish masculinity as part of my core mindset. I don't even think masculinity is a real thing, I think it's a social construct that has a history, that is to say, it's a trope or a meme. Fish don't have a core mindset of fishyness. But for historical reasons men and women have concepts of what it means to manly and womanly. But when you look globally, you can see there are similarities and difference between these cultures on what they consider manly and womanly. And when you look at the similarities, they are usually the similarities that go along with reinforcing structures of oppression and the rest is just accidental historical window dressing.
This does not make you not misogynistic, just like having a black friend doesn't make you not racist. Also, the idea that being chivalrous is somehow not misogynistic is completely mistaken. Chivalry is literally derived from the word for knight, and we can pretty clearly see how the entire of medieval European society was misogynistic and how the knights, warriors with power, title, and sometimes even land, would be part and parcel of the oppression of women. Being chivalrous is not respecting women but rather having deep-seated oppressive beliefs about women and then respecting your own false beliefs more than actually respecting women.
Monogamy is found throughout the animal world, as is polygamy. Neither is better or worse. The belief that one is generally better or worse is problematic. Believing it for yourself, whether you personally prefer your relationship to be one way or another, is not problematic. Believing everyone in the world is playing in your ethical framework is the problem. Believing monogamy is better than polygamy is generally regarded as misogynistic because isolating women into the private home on pain of losing their livelihood is a form of oppression. It's traditional because traditionally women have been oppressed in society, not being allowed medical treatment without their husband's approval, not being allowed a bank account, not being allowed to own property, not being allowed to socialize without male supervision, not being allowed to vote, not being allowed to live alone, not being allowed to have woman roommates. Etc. Monogamy, traditionally, is misogynistic.
This is factually true and there is nothing misogynistic about this observation. Your problem arises when you see this and say "a ha! here is evidence that men and women are metaphysically different and that their social roles are good and proper". When non-misogynists see these social code differences, they say "it is what is because of history and in the future maybe it will change". When people with liberatory politics see these differences, they say "let us find the causes for these differences and let us change society so that these differences may be erased".
This isn't a traditional view. This is a false belief. No one has ever dated me for free food. No one I know has I ever dated anyone for free food. No one I know has ever talked about their friends dating someone for free food. From my experience of media, the only people who ever make this claim are misogynist men and the women who take advantage of them. The number of women who take advantage of them is statistically tiny in the grand scheme of things. Your actions and beliefs should not be influenced by the existence of this tiny portion of women. Further, you should examine the reason that the small number of women who do engage in those behaviors do so. What you'll find is systemic misogynistic oppression.
Also not a traditional view. This is a full on reactionary view. Feminism does not harm men. Feminism does not create polarization between the sexes. The polarization between men and women is quite literally the history of class society for millennia. Just go look at history and find for me a time when men and women did not relate in a polarized power dynamic. Men owned women. Men owned multiple women. Men took the labor from women and sold it. Men **** women and sold their children. These things were protected by law. They were practiced in all class societies. They always subordinated women to men. Feminism seeks to fix this and there is simply no comparison between feminism's effect on men and the historical and contemporary oppression of women. The fact that you don't understand this is itself a representation of social misogyny manifesting through you. You are replicating misogyny even if you don't understand it.
You don't see what's so misogynistic about believing that men must dominate women to establish a long-term relationship? Really? Come on now. Just write it down on paper. You believe that in order for a long-term relationship between a man and a women to be stable, the man must psychologically and physically dominate the woman and the woman must submit to the man. That in and of itself is quite misogynistic, but I bet you can do worse. Try to explain why this is true and you'll see that you believe that the woman will leave the man because the woman is not interested in the long-term relationship but the man is. You can just reconcile that right away and say that the woman must be dominated against her interest to satisfy the interest of the man and leave it there. But I'm sure if you keep going you'll come up with more and more repulsive statements that even you should be able to understand as misogynistic.
You are being told what the problem is. The threshold is that you accept the criticism and put in the effort to understand how your beliefs harm people and are part of a larger system of oppression. If you don't put in that effort, you don't belong here.
We should also recommend some reading materials for OP on the historical subjugation of women, and how OP's ideas are shaped by a deeply ingrained misogynist worldview.
I def recommend Gerda Lerner - the creation of the patriarchy, and Silvia Federici - Caliban and the witch, but those are both long. Also sex at dawn, for the feminist norms that took up most of human history.
Explain to me why is polygamy healthier for either of the sexes. In case of women, abusively having sex means personal issues and inability to spiritually bond with future partners, as the "threshold" for satisfaction becomes higher with every partner. In case of men, it simply means an incredible lack of emotion and an internalised hatred towards self and women (extreme conservative views from medieval era play a large role in shaping this idea).
Window dressing has been an incredible problem contributing to the worldview shaping. And by calling masculinity a social construct, that allows for everything to be called a social construct, throwing the basis of society's survival and existence to date out of the window. I do not think this is wise, and in that capacity I disagree. Conservatives act like its still the fucking 18th century, and the other end of the spectrum likes to act that sex is a cheap act and just a venting outlet for other issues, so it is both justified, and in line with the oversexualisation of mass media, so its "normal".
I did not mean to use it as an escape jail card. But I think it is rare enough that I can use that phrasing legitimately. Chivalry can be interpreted as misogynistic, because of binary gender norms playing into the equation, but I do not think being respectful and courteous is the same as that. Good and nice men exist, and most of them become toxic either because of extreme conservatism (what I try to avoid) or fuckboys/fuckgirls rewarding the wrong behaviours in society.
We are not animals with nothing else to do than chew on grass/meat and breed like rabbits. Humans have more than just intuition and intelligence. Humans have intellect that distinguishes them from animals. This is not pedanticism.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-at-any-age/201304/the-long-term-psychological-effects-of-having-multiple-sex
I strongly disagree. Freeloading exists significantly. I have no idea what to say if you think this does not exist. Women do it for two reasons – food, and being able to share selfies from lavish hotels on Instagram/Snapchat for social media validation.
I want you to watch what goes on in this debate on Jubilee. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOUGNGWmN0k (note: no side likes Derrick, the yellow jacket incel, feel free to ignore that idiot)
Feminism, atleast on Western side of the movement, actively seeks to not just harbor, but has also been harming men. Plenty cases of false shaming men in public and in gyms, actively misinterpreting and targeting MRA, and other issues exist.
I saw the boyslockerroom/girlslockerroom case last year in India, on Twitter, during the 3 days that it happened. The girls who faked Snapchat chats on boys allegedly discussing women in a nasty manner, caused one boy to commit suicide one day after feminists started screaming on Twitter, and how women's police commission must take action on the boy. The girl who fabricated it for social views is free, active on social media and doing whatever she wants. Men's lives get destroyed in a snap upon accusations these days.
I know what you are saying, and this is why I mentioned it, knowing an obvious response will come to it, and I have no problems saying that what you are saying is correct. But this has a lot to do with biochemistry. Ever seen women who gym and eat a lot of meat, or take testosterone? Ask them or read their testimonies of how they start thinking and acting aggressively. Testosterone causes anyone to be aggressive, which is why men have fought wars, done the physically stressful jobs and acted dominant in relationships and in society. Women being the nurturing caretaker is not some idea that was born out of "toxic mindset", but rather the simple fact that we are biologically designed in a way that woman is more sensitive, physically vulnerable and due to lack of testosterone, not as aggressive, the way a man is.
I do not think self critique is necessarily part of being a communist, but it is a mark of being a true leftist, which is why I put myself up here for perhaps what might be one of the most controversial posts on here.