It's a classic problem with mass civil disobedience. All the elites have to do is simply wait for a selfish minority who'll choose to use the opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of their fellows. Then they can frame the entire movement as violent and base.
Im not advocating against civil disobedience, but you need solidarity to avoid this.
Every last human is capable of the evils any given human comitted
If you strip away everything that has made them an individual, yes you're right. But I think that just highlights that your argument is a pointless distinction.
If you swapped me out at birth with a Nazi general, there's a good chance I'd be driven down the same life path.
Likewise this means you have to accept that there are many people, due to their upbringing and the principles they've adopted in life, that wouldn't destroy a corner shop for no reason. That wouldn't assault a woman trying to protect her place of work.
Likewise this means you have to accept that there are many people, due to their upbringing and the principles they've adopted in life, that wouldn't destroy a corner shop for no reason.
No human chose how to be brought into the world. Your argument is not substantive.
Empathy is the path forward. Othering outgroups is not. We have plenty of research to back this up.
Bad people distort narratives regardless of the actions of others.... No matter what she did, my first wife was always the victim. DARVO is a thing, identify it and ignore it. These people looting a market for resources after a long night of rioting does not disqualify their complaints. Their complaints must be evaluated and addressed independently of their reaction to the original violation against them.
Their complaints must be evaluated and addressed independently of their reaction
I 100% agree.
These people looting a market for resources after a long night of rioting
But this doesn't mean that revolutionary action demands we hold the delusional belief that this market was looted because the protestors were on the brink of starvation or had no access to clean water or medical supplies.
They smashed that shop to bits because it was fun and an opportunity to rob some vapes.
All the elites have to do is simply wait for a selfish minority who'll choose to use the opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of their fellows.
Which is EXACTLY what the Elites do as matter of routine. They just don't like it when it gets turned on THEM.
So I'm sure you'll agree it's much better to loot an apple store or burn down a billionaires mansion rather than smash a corner shop to bits and assault other working class people.
It's still a good cause. Just because a few hundred assholes take advantage of the situation doesn't mean the hundred of thousands that went to the street to protest peacefully are wrong
FYI the topic of protest was "life is too expensive." So there's really no mystery as to why people are stealing.
More generally, looting is to be expected in a society that constantly tells us the meaning of life and our our moral worth is based on what we own, all the while denying most people any chance to actually own anything. Looting is one of the monstrous avatars of capitalism.
Trickle Down Economics created all these Sociopathic Oligarchs, and it has been obvious for decades that the benefits of Trickle Down Economics were fraudulent from the beginning. They refuse to surrender Trickle Down, so now society is spontaneously pivoting to Robin Hood Economics, and it's going to spread.
It happens in every worthwhile protest. If you see it more it's partly because the media wants you to, partly because things are so bad your country has been letting more people feel this is okay.
Also, everyone thinks the French revolution was so cool, but beheadings weren't normal back then either, it probably wasn't the most well-spoken of the protestors doing that violence either.
I mean I see people stealing stuff, but there are a lot of valid reasons for stealing. I'm just wondering how they know the motivation behind the stealing.
if they are taking a bottle of water and a sandwich because they are exhausted, that's fine. If they are taking expensive electronics and brand clothes, they are low-life scum deliberately allowed to behave like this by the oppressive class, to taint the protests. It's hard to see which is happening on this video, but I am assuming the latter.
I don't know, could it be that they're running around in their Nike sneakers while breaking and entering, coming back out with beer and kinder surprise? They're not exactly lamenting "we have no bread"...
Even if they were taking only bread, what do the brand of sneakers matter? What are you suggesting? An ethical looter would fashion their own footwear out of burlap and string or something instead of wearing whatever footwear they have handy?
If you can afford Nike, you can afford a loaf of bread. I've met people in developing countries who are wearing sandals worn paper thin and are pushing most of what they own around on a cart. They get only one meal a day, and still refuse to steal - instead, they do whatever they can to make an honest living, however modest it may be. Those are the ones who deserve sympathy and respect, not the hooligans barging their way into shops to help themselves.
Yes, but that doesn't by default make someone evil or selfish. There are stories like Robin Hood, an obvious thief, in which stealing is considered completely fine, admirable even. I'm not saying that's the case here, I'm just wondering how the original commenter knows the motivation behind people's stealing here.
During riots, people often loot markets for food and water. Which makes perfect sense: they aren't carrying a lot of resources and a night of high adrenaline rioting will exhaust and dehydrate people.
The only real solution is to provide access to cheap or free food and water throughout and after, but who is going to do that?
The stores themselves could lock up the pricey stuff and offer water access and cheapo food stuff, ask for payment, but not lock their doors or make a huff if people don't pay. But they'd have to plan for it, and not every business is going to be riot savey.
Besides, most biz are covered by insurance, so not really a big deal.
In most civilized countries, that is illegal and not happening, since that would defeat the entire point of insurance. I had a fire in my home, the insurance paid, I'm still with the same insurer and my rate stayed the same.
I don't give a hoot about the goods from a giant corporation. Take it all, and take the fixtures and equipment, too. Insurance will have to cover it, and another giant corporation will feel the effects, too.
Hands off Mom & Pop shops, they're not the problem, they're part of the solution.
The giant corporation...I think you need to re-read their comment. They don't care about any losses for major corps (honestly a fully reasonable position) but condemned theft or destruction against businesses owned by regular people.
In this situation two major corps suffer loses, that's a win for the common folk.
The giant corporations love this. Majority of these shops will go under and big business can scoop up these properties for cheap. Looting is trashy and makes the common folk want more security.
... you mean like how periods of unrest like this almost always result in a reactionary power grab? You either overthrow the government or it happens without fail.
It's actually a fairly stupid position because random theft helps the other side paint the side you presumably care about as criminals whilst others actually care about the issues.
The side that believes those things will view any protest that way if they didn't already believe in the cause, no matter how peaceful it is. The sacks of shit looting really don't move the needle on public opinion and as long as they stick to mega corps they are still the least of the problems.
Also the police everywhere on the planet routinely will infiltrate protests and start shit like this to do exactly what you have described, there truly is no way to have a meaningful protest without things getting ugly.
And finally...why must everything that ever occurs during a protest be blamed on the protesters and the cause? Why are any looters automatically assumed to be part of it and not just opportunistic pieces of shit or even straight up agitators and saboteurs?
You are part of the problem here, whether you realize it or intend for it.
Actual people rarely use the same insurance companies that the major corps use, sure some genuine small businesses will get mixed up in it but majority of them are with the small time insurance companies.
For the most part it will only affect the regular people if the government provides subsidies and bailouts to the insurance company, which is a practice that needs to end or at least come with the caveat of forced removal and investigation of all leadership positions from board to CEO to management as well as turning the company over to the employees.
There were around 6 to 800 000 people across the country. There's been a handful of incidents, looting included, in a handful of cities, by a small number of people. It's going to happen. Saying it delegitimizes the whole movement is just playing the fascist agenda.
This is so stupid. They ruin the look of the protest for pennies. They don't even have bags so whatever they take isn't worth even a 10th of a week's grocery shopping.
It's a multi-national grocery store. You're ruining the look of the protest because you can only focus on this. You're playing into Macron's hand by reacting like they want you to be.
Just more white tears, "someone please think of the businesses". Riots are a natural response to extreme injustice. She has no political analysis on what's happening, it's sad. The good protester vs bad protester narrative misses the point entirely. This is the result of the accumulated trauma imposed by the racial and wealth hierarchy of capitalism onto people. Even many small businesses can be corrupt and exploit their workers and communities. She wants to protect her comfortable neoliberal reality, the same one that causes black and brown kids she doesn't care about to starve or freeze to death
Breaking into businesses and taking things isn't a response to injustice its just opportunistically enriching yourself under the cover of unrest. People who are angry fight vote convince others disrupt normal operations and forcing a reckoning. Lazy greedy people take random shit and stupid people defend them.
A++ addition to include random bigotry further degrading the discourse while adding nothing to the discussion because you and you personally are incapable of adding anything of value to the world.
The productive class is choked from the two sides of the parasite class: the billionaire parasites and the low-life parasites. Time to fight back on both. Words will not fix this.
Hey man the French revolution involved actual beheadings and it brought much of the prosperity you have today. It's not this scum ruining your life. It's untouchable billionaires far away from consequences.
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Started out with a good cause, but it was quickly turned to shit by selfish, evil people. Not the first time it's happened in France, I'm afraid.
It's a classic problem with mass civil disobedience. All the elites have to do is simply wait for a selfish minority who'll choose to use the opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of their fellows. Then they can frame the entire movement as violent and base.
Im not advocating against civil disobedience, but you need solidarity to avoid this.
Greed. Its in all of us, and the filthy rich love exploiting the them, as they easier to manipulate.
This is something the greedy want you to believe, and an insult to the majority of humanity who would never act like this.
Every human is a human. We are a product of our (largely shared) genetics and circumstance.
Every last human is capable of the evils any given human comitted. We are all the same.
People get very defensive about this, but the only counter I ever hear is "nuh uh."
If you strip away everything that has made them an individual, yes you're right. But I think that just highlights that your argument is a pointless distinction.
If you swapped me out at birth with a Nazi general, there's a good chance I'd be driven down the same life path.
Likewise this means you have to accept that there are many people, due to their upbringing and the principles they've adopted in life, that wouldn't destroy a corner shop for no reason. That wouldn't assault a woman trying to protect her place of work.
First of all that was just a "nuh uh." But,
No human chose how to be brought into the world. Your argument is not substantive.
Empathy is the path forward. Othering outgroups is not. We have plenty of research to back this up.
Well if your rebuttal is simply determinism then I think you'll find that nobody's arguments can possibly contain any substance.
Agreed.
Nobody has been othered. In fact using it in this way dilutes the word as its simply rhetoric intended to censor discussion behind a purity test.
Doesn't change that it's in all of us even if you don't personally act on it.
We all have it in our capacity to do great good or great evil in the world.
But that's exactly why this makes all the difference. The capacity for action is meaningless, as you state, we all possess it.
Bad people distort narratives regardless of the actions of others.... No matter what she did, my first wife was always the victim. DARVO is a thing, identify it and ignore it. These people looting a market for resources after a long night of rioting does not disqualify their complaints. Their complaints must be evaluated and addressed independently of their reaction to the original violation against them.
I 100% agree.
But this doesn't mean that revolutionary action demands we hold the delusional belief that this market was looted because the protestors were on the brink of starvation or had no access to clean water or medical supplies.
They smashed that shop to bits because it was fun and an opportunity to rob some vapes.
Which is EXACTLY what the Elites do as matter of routine. They just don't like it when it gets turned on THEM.
So I'm sure you'll agree it's much better to loot an apple store or burn down a billionaires mansion rather than smash a corner shop to bits and assault other working class people.
This is why I'm glad for videos like this one, showing the reasonable people
It's still a good cause. Just because a few hundred assholes take advantage of the situation doesn't mean the hundred of thousands that went to the street to protest peacefully are wrong
FYI the topic of protest was "life is too expensive." So there's really no mystery as to why people are stealing.
More generally, looting is to be expected in a society that constantly tells us the meaning of life and our our moral worth is based on what we own, all the while denying most people any chance to actually own anything. Looting is one of the monstrous avatars of capitalism.
Trickle Down Economics created all these Sociopathic Oligarchs, and it has been obvious for decades that the benefits of Trickle Down Economics were fraudulent from the beginning. They refuse to surrender Trickle Down, so now society is spontaneously pivoting to Robin Hood Economics, and it's going to spread.
It happens in every worthwhile protest. If you see it more it's partly because the media wants you to, partly because things are so bad your country has been letting more people feel this is okay.
Also, everyone thinks the French revolution was so cool, but beheadings weren't normal back then either, it probably wasn't the most well-spoken of the protestors doing that violence either.
How do you know they're selfish, evil people?
Yo can't see?
I mean I see people stealing stuff, but there are a lot of valid reasons for stealing. I'm just wondering how they know the motivation behind the stealing.
if they are taking a bottle of water and a sandwich because they are exhausted, that's fine. If they are taking expensive electronics and brand clothes, they are low-life scum deliberately allowed to behave like this by the oppressive class, to taint the protests. It's hard to see which is happening on this video, but I am assuming the latter.
I don't know, could it be that they're running around in their Nike sneakers while breaking and entering, coming back out with beer and kinder surprise? They're not exactly lamenting "we have no bread"...
Even if they were taking only bread, what do the brand of sneakers matter? What are you suggesting? An ethical looter would fashion their own footwear out of burlap and string or something instead of wearing whatever footwear they have handy?
If you can afford Nike, you can afford a loaf of bread. I've met people in developing countries who are wearing sandals worn paper thin and are pushing most of what they own around on a cart. They get only one meal a day, and still refuse to steal - instead, they do whatever they can to make an honest living, however modest it may be. Those are the ones who deserve sympathy and respect, not the hooligans barging their way into shops to help themselves.
Where do you live where Nike is only a luxury brand and doesn't have any common, cheap footwear? Nobody in this video is wearing a US$300 pair.
People here are actually ridiculous, defending looters. What kind of planet are you from where looting is okay?
Since when is asking where you got your weird ideas about shoes defending looting?
They are stealing.
Yes, but that doesn't by default make someone evil or selfish. There are stories like Robin Hood, an obvious thief, in which stealing is considered completely fine, admirable even. I'm not saying that's the case here, I'm just wondering how the original commenter knows the motivation behind people's stealing here.
Not every thievery is evil.
They aren't stealing bread for their children
There is no stealing under capitalism, it's rightful retribution /s
During riots, people often loot markets for food and water. Which makes perfect sense: they aren't carrying a lot of resources and a night of high adrenaline rioting will exhaust and dehydrate people.
The only real solution is to provide access to cheap or free food and water throughout and after, but who is going to do that?
The stores themselves could lock up the pricey stuff and offer water access and cheapo food stuff, ask for payment, but not lock their doors or make a huff if people don't pay. But they'd have to plan for it, and not every business is going to be riot savey.
Besides, most biz are covered by insurance, so not really a big deal.
Yeah then you make a claim and your rates go up 10fold on renewal.
In most civilized countries, that is illegal and not happening, since that would defeat the entire point of insurance. I had a fire in my home, the insurance paid, I'm still with the same insurer and my rate stayed the same.
If they're looting from a business with a c-suite - fuck 'em, let it burn.
Looting from an independent business is scum.
A much stronger message would be sent if multinational chains were left in ruins, but the locally owned businesses untouched and protected.
I don't give a hoot about the goods from a giant corporation. Take it all, and take the fixtures and equipment, too. Insurance will have to cover it, and another giant corporation will feel the effects, too.
Hands off Mom & Pop shops, they're not the problem, they're part of the solution.
Who do you think pays for the insurance?
You think they just give it away for free?
The giant corporation...I think you need to re-read their comment. They don't care about any losses for major corps (honestly a fully reasonable position) but condemned theft or destruction against businesses owned by regular people.
In this situation two major corps suffer loses, that's a win for the common folk.
The giant corporations love this. Majority of these shops will go under and big business can scoop up these properties for cheap. Looting is trashy and makes the common folk want more security.
Lmao open a history book
... you mean like how periods of unrest like this almost always result in a reactionary power grab? You either overthrow the government or it happens without fail.
History? I prefer Herstory.
It's actually a fairly stupid position because random theft helps the other side paint the side you presumably care about as criminals whilst others actually care about the issues.
The side that believes those things will view any protest that way if they didn't already believe in the cause, no matter how peaceful it is. The sacks of shit looting really don't move the needle on public opinion and as long as they stick to mega corps they are still the least of the problems.
Also the police everywhere on the planet routinely will infiltrate protests and start shit like this to do exactly what you have described, there truly is no way to have a meaningful protest without things getting ugly.
And finally...why must everything that ever occurs during a protest be blamed on the protesters and the cause? Why are any looters automatically assumed to be part of it and not just opportunistic pieces of shit or even straight up agitators and saboteurs?
You are part of the problem here, whether you realize it or intend for it.
It's always funny reading bad economics, it almost always seems to boil down to: someone else will pay
You're going to be so surprised when you find out who pays for the insurance in the end
Actual people rarely use the same insurance companies that the major corps use, sure some genuine small businesses will get mixed up in it but majority of them are with the small time insurance companies.
For the most part it will only affect the regular people if the government provides subsidies and bailouts to the insurance company, which is a practice that needs to end or at least come with the caveat of forced removal and investigation of all leadership positions from board to CEO to management as well as turning the company over to the employees.
that’s right, it’s the people!
If the cost of insurance goes up, the input cost to the business goes up and that gets passed on to the consumer
Good, it gives small businesses a chance to compete. The people can support local instead.
Do local businesses not need insurance? and have you seen any signs the french looters are differentiating between local and big businesses?
https://lemmy.world/post/53300012
Unpopular opinion but these looting are destroying any legitimacy protesters have. It's so cringe.
There were around 6 to 800 000 people across the country. There's been a handful of incidents, looting included, in a handful of cities, by a small number of people. It's going to happen. Saying it delegitimizes the whole movement is just playing the fascist agenda.
Nah, saying it delegitimizes the whole movement is valid. You're the one that's validating fascist agenda by justifying unjust behavior.
Protests are not binary, some are better than others.
“C'est pas la cause!”; an extraordinary brave act while surrounded by pubescent morons with short fuses.
That's depressing.
Why?
Why do you think?
They are destroying her livelihood.
She's a bystander. This is an insured storefront of a multinational.
People will militantly defend their own bondage.
The loot is also given to people in need. It’s not just greed. https://loops.video/v/iPH3tC5-W8
Edit: Also the French cops seem to be false-flagging here and there:
Supposedly trying to get to protestors while other cops watch: https://mamot.fr/@[email protected]/117376147530779571
Setting a trashbin on fire. His pal in the black hoodie seems to have a gun holster (triangular shape in his back): https://mamot.fr/@[email protected]/117462157042917063
Stealing shoes from a damaged shop, right into the police motorcycles: https://mamot.fr/@[email protected]/117463417826681166
Violent "protestors" accessing police vehicle as needed: https://mamot.fr/@[email protected]/117464474742537372
Source
Can someone translate this? Is there anything in there, why specifically she's trying to stop them, like is it her shop or sth?
She is basically saying stop stop! this shop is not the cause (not what we are protesting about)
they say that he (the shopkeeper) is not her father
the white guy comes over and says they won't listen to her and she could get injured
She keeps shouting: why are you doing this, this is not the cause
inside they are saying take the wine while the shopkeeper looks on sadly
at the end they say they went shopping! and does anyone want some shampoo or ice
Will leave to someone actually french to translate but this is the gist of it i think
I can confirm that's basically it
This is so stupid. They ruin the look of the protest for pennies. They don't even have bags so whatever they take isn't worth even a 10th of a week's grocery shopping.
The guys took fruits and shampoo, the protest is against the cost of living!
Bizarely some other shops were more heavily guarded by cops, like the chocolate family shop of president's wife
It's a multi-national grocery store. You're ruining the look of the protest because you can only focus on this. You're playing into Macron's hand by reacting like they want you to be.
The only way people have to take back what corporations take from us.
CEOs singlehandedly ruining whit people's PR. Sounds just as dumb.
I also agree with that. You can never generalize, but you can conclude a good probabilistic distribution based on such facts and observations.
White people really don't have much good PR to begin with.
These kids are playing exactly into the racial stereotypes.
Only if you’re the type of person who looks at these people and the first thing you see is “black”
That’s on you homie
Just more white tears, "someone please think of the businesses". Riots are a natural response to extreme injustice. She has no political analysis on what's happening, it's sad. The good protester vs bad protester narrative misses the point entirely. This is the result of the accumulated trauma imposed by the racial and wealth hierarchy of capitalism onto people. Even many small businesses can be corrupt and exploit their workers and communities. She wants to protect her comfortable neoliberal reality, the same one that causes black and brown kids she doesn't care about to starve or freeze to death
Or you know, brain cells. Blind destruction of legitimate service is a response of a toddler not a just individual.
Breaking into businesses and taking things isn't a response to injustice its just opportunistically enriching yourself under the cover of unrest. People who are angry fight vote convince others disrupt normal operations and forcing a reckoning. Lazy greedy people take random shit and stupid people defend them.
A++ addition to include random bigotry further degrading the discourse while adding nothing to the discussion because you and you personally are incapable of adding anything of value to the world.
The productive class is choked from the two sides of the parasite class: the billionaire parasites and the low-life parasites. Time to fight back on both. Words will not fix this.
i didn't have much faith in humanity left, but there goes the rest of it.
Hey man the French revolution involved actual beheadings and it brought much of the prosperity you have today. It's not this scum ruining your life. It's untouchable billionaires far away from consequences.
how do you think i lost the first part of my faith in humanity?
Assuming an arrow to the knee, or smth
A few beheadings brought much of the prosperity, then the reign of terror occurred.
People tend to forget about that bit.