How can anyone trust our current justice system to prove guilt well enough to avoid killing innocent people?
Shit, even if they are guilty, there isn't a humane way to kill people. Every currently used form of capital punishment is barbaric as fuck. Not to mention that killing a murderer doesn't actually decrease the number of killers, it's just creating a legal avenue to murder with impunity.
What do you mean? who? for what? euthanasia? ask the procurement dept for a hospital that does it. state sanctioned killing? ask the state's procurement dept
I know the answers to these questions. I'm trying to figure out if you actually understand why this system works in the barbaric way it does rather than the idealized way you're talking about.
The united states of America has killed innocent kids with the death penalty. Whenever the death penalty is brought up around the dinner table please remind your friends and family that despite their personal opinion, the government cannot be trusted with this power.
Studies have shown that a life imprisonment costs less overall than seeking the death penalty (in the US at least). So in addition to the ethical issues of execution, and the clear risk of convicting and executing the wrong person, we have a financial incentive to abolish execution. Getting rid of capitol punishment is a win-win-win proposition.
Abolish it. If anything, its impractical because it discourages extradition.
Its not worth letting even one crook get away with something because they crossed a border.
I do have a hot take though.
Since a death penalty conviction basically means "this person is beyond rehabilitation," I think it should be replaced with prison labor. Not inhumane labor, but "its work or solitary," and the threshold for conviction should be extremely high.
Why? Its the most politically palatable way to get rid of the death penalty in the US. It stands the best chance in death penalty friendly states.
Ethically questionable, yes. Problematic incentives, yes. But its still better than killing the convict, and it would stigmatize more general forced prison labor.
Since a death penalty conviction basically means “this person is beyond rehabilitation,” I think it should be replaced with prison labor. Not inhumane labor, but “its work or solitary,” and the threshold for conviction should be extremely high.
That's basically what some US prisons are like already tho. There are states where refusal to work, sometimes with no wage, results in disciplinary action.
I think the only realistic solution for this is for hollywood to start pumping out biopics about every single innocent person put to death by the state. Let people sympathize with the protagonist being framed and locked up for doing nothing, and then hit them with what an execution of that protagonist looks like.
After the revolution they must make a biopic about the couple who helped the soviets with nuclear tech, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. Kissing and singing L'Internationale while being strapped to an electric chair for helping a socialist nation survive against the empire? C'mon, that's some prime Communetflix material.
I feel labour could also help people who aren't beyond rehabilitation. Not necessarily forced labour... But I mean with work they might get to socialize, learn something useful which isn't related to drugs or crime... And they might find some perspective on life after prison?!
Also the only good argument for death penalty I ever heard is cost... Unfortunately in reality it's reportedly 2.5 to 5 times as expensive as life imprisonment. So the taxpayer is paying quite a decent amount for the pleasure of getting people executed.
By the way: I'm fairly sure in Germany, where I live, prisoners are obligated to work. Not sure how that works in practice. But seems at least on paper we have forced labour for prisoners here. And not just the ones on death row (which we don't have)...
It sounds nice on paper, but its problematic because it creates a perverse incentives, as prisoners become profitable:
Incentive for more convictions, for more prison workers.
For abusive working conditions, since they are captive with no rights.
To keep prisoners as long as possible, instead of reforming them.
Potential for all sorts of exploits and embezzlement since money is now flowing, for both private and govt prisons.
Its not theoretical either. There are real cases of corruption related to all these.
Hence prison labor is controversial, and if implemented has to be done VERY carefully.
But I find "death penalty convicts" to be a better use case, as they arent leaving anyway, the threshold is very high, it gives them some quality of life, and even a less-than-ideal system is still better than dying, mostly.
I guess one issue would be ability. Some are too crazy to work, or ineffective in groups.
Though I feel there's a big rift between the USA and the majority of other places. In the US (and some other countries), prisons can be private companies. So they'll logically do all the for-profit things like exploit workers... I mean the ethics of it all is complicated. But I feel that one can easily be solved. Just have the prisons be ran by the government and come up with some law regarding separation of powers, and a minimum wage which makes it unprofitable.
Also probably what we should do, because they're getting paid on average 1.55€ an hour. Which is close to being paid nothing at all.
Obviously private prisons are bad, but as long as the prisoners are generating cash with their labor, making the prisons government-run and well-payed does not dispel some of the dangerous incentives.
Sure. I wish there was a way to make government run closer to perfect. That'd solve a lot of issues. They're frequently incentivised to not invest in infrastructure, or they'll strike some corrupt deals with private companies, which is going to make my day worse, or at best waste my taxpayer money. They wield the power to ruin people's lives because it's their job to make the education system work, they're bothered with healthcare which can kill people if not done right... That's all cash flow through the government and the regulations they come up with. And especially vulnerable people tend to find themselves at the receiving end once something goes wrong, which it definitely does.
23 replies
How can anyone trust our current justice system to prove guilt well enough to avoid killing innocent people?
Shit, even if they are guilty, there isn't a humane way to kill people. Every currently used form of capital punishment is barbaric as fuck. Not to mention that killing a murderer doesn't actually decrease the number of killers, it's just creating a legal avenue to murder with impunity.
I mean there are ways to do it humanely, but most people wouldn't be satisfied with a peaceful death anyway.
Such as?
High dose anti anxiety med, followed by sedation, followed by opioid overdose is one. Any of the methods used for euthanasia, basically
And how do they acquire those drugs?
What do you mean? who? for what? euthanasia? ask the procurement dept for a hospital that does it. state sanctioned killing? ask the state's procurement dept
these are regular drugs, nothing archane abt them
So why aren't they used?
I know the answers to these questions. I'm trying to figure out if you actually understand why this system works in the barbaric way it does rather than the idealized way you're talking about.
few things
That saying always bothered me, if the same person sends multiple murderers to death, total number of killers does go down.
Is that not just allowing for serial killing, then?
Sure it is, I'm not saying it's great. I'm just saying the quote always puts my brain into a folly.
The united states of America has killed innocent kids with the death penalty. Whenever the death penalty is brought up around the dinner table please remind your friends and family that despite their personal opinion, the government cannot be trusted with this power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stinney
Studies have shown that a life imprisonment costs less overall than seeking the death penalty (in the US at least). So in addition to the ethical issues of execution, and the clear risk of convicting and executing the wrong person, we have a financial incentive to abolish execution. Getting rid of capitol punishment is a win-win-win proposition.
Abolish it except for police, military, and government for gross violations of their duties against the people they're meant to protect.
Abolish it. If anything, its impractical because it discourages extradition.
Its not worth letting even one crook get away with something because they crossed a border.
I do have a hot take though.
Since a death penalty conviction basically means "this person is beyond rehabilitation," I think it should be replaced with prison labor. Not inhumane labor, but "its work or solitary," and the threshold for conviction should be extremely high.
Why? Its the most politically palatable way to get rid of the death penalty in the US. It stands the best chance in death penalty friendly states.
Ethically questionable, yes. Problematic incentives, yes. But its still better than killing the convict, and it would stigmatize more general forced prison labor.
That's basically what some US prisons are like already tho. There are states where refusal to work, sometimes with no wage, results in disciplinary action.
I think the only realistic solution for this is for hollywood to start pumping out biopics about every single innocent person put to death by the state. Let people sympathize with the protagonist being framed and locked up for doing nothing, and then hit them with what an execution of that protagonist looks like.
After the revolution they must make a biopic about the couple who helped the soviets with nuclear tech, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. Kissing and singing L'Internationale while being strapped to an electric chair for helping a socialist nation survive against the empire? C'mon, that's some prime Communetflix material.
I feel labour could also help people who aren't beyond rehabilitation. Not necessarily forced labour... But I mean with work they might get to socialize, learn something useful which isn't related to drugs or crime... And they might find some perspective on life after prison?!
Also the only good argument for death penalty I ever heard is cost... Unfortunately in reality it's reportedly 2.5 to 5 times as expensive as life imprisonment. So the taxpayer is paying quite a decent amount for the pleasure of getting people executed.
By the way: I'm fairly sure in Germany, where I live, prisoners are obligated to work. Not sure how that works in practice. But seems at least on paper we have forced labour for prisoners here. And not just the ones on death row (which we don't have)...
There is already prison labor in the US too.
It sounds nice on paper, but its problematic because it creates a perverse incentives, as prisoners become profitable:
Incentive for more convictions, for more prison workers.
For abusive working conditions, since they are captive with no rights.
To keep prisoners as long as possible, instead of reforming them.
Potential for all sorts of exploits and embezzlement since money is now flowing, for both private and govt prisons.
Its not theoretical either. There are real cases of corruption related to all these.
Hence prison labor is controversial, and if implemented has to be done VERY carefully.
But I find "death penalty convicts" to be a better use case, as they arent leaving anyway, the threshold is very high, it gives them some quality of life, and even a less-than-ideal system is still better than dying, mostly.
I guess one issue would be ability. Some are too crazy to work, or ineffective in groups.
Though I feel there's a big rift between the USA and the majority of other places. In the US (and some other countries), prisons can be private companies. So they'll logically do all the for-profit things like exploit workers... I mean the ethics of it all is complicated. But I feel that one can easily be solved. Just have the prisons be ran by the government and come up with some law regarding separation of powers, and a minimum wage which makes it unprofitable.
Also probably what we should do, because they're getting paid on average 1.55€ an hour. Which is close to being paid nothing at all.
Obviously private prisons are bad, but as long as the prisoners are generating cash with their labor, making the prisons government-run and well-payed does not dispel some of the dangerous incentives.
Sure. I wish there was a way to make government run closer to perfect. That'd solve a lot of issues. They're frequently incentivised to not invest in infrastructure, or they'll strike some corrupt deals with private companies, which is going to make my day worse, or at best waste my taxpayer money. They wield the power to ruin people's lives because it's their job to make the education system work, they're bothered with healthcare which can kill people if not done right... That's all cash flow through the government and the regulations they come up with. And especially vulnerable people tend to find themselves at the receiving end once something goes wrong, which it definitely does.
April 21, they added 1 to the favoring side out of nowhere.