FYI, lots of users are polling to defederate sh.itjust.works
Might- be worth knowing about.....
https://lemmyonline.com/comment/47545
Edit- And... (From beehaw...) https://lemmyonline.com/post/8944
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Comments314https://lemmyonline.com/comment/47545Open linkView original on lemmyonline.com
I just don't get it.
Block the c/TheDonald community. That's it. That's all you need to do.
When it gets no visits, no views, and only it's handful of users meme-ing each other, it'll die. One of the big reasons TheDonald took off on Reddit was because of all the attention it got.
So, don't give them attention. Don't feed the trolls.
I'm not saying to tolerate neo-nazis. But running from them isn't exactly a time proven strategy, either. They will exist, and it's up to all of us to remind them that their views are garbage.
You are preaching to the choir. I was just spreading the word of this crap here.
I just posted my comment in the Lemmy.ml thread, so we'll see how THAT goes...
Well, @[email protected] determined your comment was worth downvoting. I don't think he/she/they appreciates your feedback.
I guess to some people, tolerance is conditional on whether you agree with what they said.
I'm not going to tolerate neo-nazis over here. I'm going to call out any of their shitty views and takes. Because they aren't going away. Racism didn't die, white supremacists didn't fade away. Folks like to think they came back with Trump, but guess what? The call was coming from inside the room. It was always there, it was just taking a nap and waiting.
Cutting them off will just put them back into waiting mode, ready to pop up and spread their shit again. We, the society we, need to push back against their shit to keep regular folk from falling for their lies. It's not going to be easy, and it's certainly not a one person job. All of us need to do what we can, even if it's just a downvote.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to unblock TheDonald to see what's worth downvoting.
I peeked at it earlier. Honestly, really isn't anything at all of value in there.
I mean, seriously- it's just a bunch of really crappy news posts... the kind that looks more like spam then news.
Yeah, it was sad. One dude shouting to the void, basically. If that's all it takes to get an instance defederated, then the Fediverse is doomed to be small oases in an ocean of fear and hatred.
Tell me about it.
I don't think many people realize how little effort it would take me, to go and create a bot that just creates accounts on their instance, and then posts pro-trump things on other instances.
Let that run for, oh. a day or two, and I imagine that would be the end of federation for everyone.
I specifically choose instances based on their instance block list. If they block a lot of instances, I don't consider them. My ideal ones are the ones that are a bit free and yet are well connected, but sometimes well connected means "allied to the mass defederators" because people in general become super compliant in the face of isolation.
Sh.itjust.works may start banning communities to regain federation to Beehaw, and then Beehaw will ask that sh.itjust.works defederate a "wrong" instance or two, and by the time we know it, we'll all be banning the same instances, and we'll be a cute little echo chamber of "tolerance".
By that same measure, I usually avoid any instance of community that claims to be a "safe place". They're the likeliest to always be attacking others because that's how you stay safe, through unending violence.
how is downvoting related to tolerance?
You literally downvoted him, NOT for the content inside of the comment he made- but, because he chose to voice his opinion.
That is the definition of intolerance, towards any viewpoint that does not specifically agree with yours.
His comment, that you disagreed with:
I owe you an apology, @[email protected] . I didn't mean to direct that comment only to you, but I see how it came across that way.
Upvotes and downvotes don't have modifiers that let you say whether you agree or disagree, whether you think the comment is relevant, or whether you appreciate that someone took the time to respond but you disagree with their points. They're too broad.
So without further information, like a reply, no one can really know why an upvote or downvote was cast.
So, would you care to discuss what I wrote in reply to your post?
I agree with you; there is no tolerance of intolerance.
Did you get told about the "paradox of tolerance"?
People need to chill a bit. The defederate hammer is being thrown around a lot lately without allowing admins time to respond. One moron setting up a community named thedonald isn't the same as that same Reddit community seeing up base here.
Seems like it's gone now either way? I can't find it.
And the same goes for anything else. You don't like r/politics being a bastion for US democrat biased ans bullshit propaganda? Block it. You don't want to see republicans talking about being republican (the horror), block it.
And don't pretend we all need to agree on everything and be as shittily outraged with the next US centric Google manipulated narrative.
Same. I've blocked like 50 communities so far. Yet I don't go around calling to defederate because "omg I just don't like US news, US has committed atrocities, anyone who posts a US news will get their server defederated!". Block and keep walking. Life's too short to spend it crying about the perfectly evitable.
It does feel that many people here on lemmy are experiencing 1st hand of "feeding the troll". The Donald community created is probably done by less than a handful of people and it drove hundred times more amount of users to turn against each other.
This is why I frown upon the idea of defederation and I blame the users for opening that pandora's box. People, including mods, are too busy getting at each other throats and praising the value of their bubble communities rather than having any sort of planning.
The sad part- I believe it was only a single account which sparked this conflict causing everyone to be at each other's throats.
They're constantly changing their display name too. Whether it's to be more elusive or to make their numbers look greater.
Suppose the best solution for this problem- is a better system for handling banned/toxic users...
Would need to be prob a third party script, distributed amongst multiple instances. But- that would also require a certain level of trust between admins too.
If memory serves me- back in my minecraft days- we used mcbans, pretty effectively for this purpose.
For websites / forums, I used cleartalk, which actually worked pretty effectively... but, for spammers.
I'll have to take a look and see the level of effort to integrate that into here.
I was able to block them pretty easily. They're still just on one acct.
This time. But- when they come back in bigger numbers- its going to be a problem.
Especially, since you can get banned from one place, and turn around and sign up to another.
This truly is the internet
I'm surprised the admin gives it so much thought. Just delete "the Donald" and be done with it. Who is going to complain that they don't want to give fascists a platform? That's how you handle them, by not giving them a second thought, all this discussion is already giving them way too much publicity.
Correct, which is why any waffling on that decision makes a lot of people suspicious of the admin's stance on the subject.
yea. instances admins should have open communication with each other about what is bothering one another and take action for the good of the majority. dont fall for the 'divide and conquer' plan
Defederation is not the answer. Honestly, it's such a powerful and destructive tool that I question whether it should exist period.
Users should be treated like adults who are capable of determining by themselves what content they are comfortable with seeing.
If I don't want to see an extremist political community on my feed, I block that community myself. If an instance is full of such communities, I block that instance myself.
I don't want or need some other random on the internet to make judgement calls on what content I can or cannot interact with.
Defederation is a tactical nuke, that if used incorrectly will destroy the freedom, decentralization and openness of Lemmy, and replace it with a far more centralized series of walled gardens.
I fear that people are trying to recreate the reddit model on Lemmy. Lemmy is not reddit, Lemmy is better than reddit. Reddit is top down, Lemmy is bottom up. We don't need more mod control, we need more user control.
I would love to see more features built for user moderation of content. Perhaps I could subscribe to another users blocklist, or follow their 'recommended communities'. Instances themselves could maintain suggested block lists, and users could chose to enable or disable them at their own discretion.
I'm really not sure that defederation has any place at all. Even things like spam and bot instances I think would be better handled by a blocklist (enabled by default even), that users can turn on or off as they see fit.
I joined the fediverse for the fediverse experience. That is it's touted interconnections and interoperability with other services and platforms so that I could discover and dialogue with people of similar interests who weren't directly subscribed to the same service/instance/platform I was currently using.
I originally subscribed to beehaw.org which soon afterwards began defederating from other instances. I soon deleted my account with them as that was antithetical to the reason I signed up with them in the first place. I wanted exposure and access to all that the fediverse offered.
I have no problem with people and communities creating spaces for themselves while excluding those who don't hold similar interests, but in light of all the current squabbling, I just want to join a fediverse instance that isn't going to defederate.
Defederation should be just “read-only” and users should be blocked from posting or commenting. In its current state it just creates a fragmented broken network with silos that users don’t really know about because it silently fails.
Here is the answer.
Autoblock spam and illegal content Make a "not cool" communities list and allow users to check a button upon signing up to block instantly.
Problem solved.
I am massively against defederation when at all possible- However, I will draw the line at illegal content.
The reason being- when content is federated, a copy of it is stored on all subscribed instances.
I REALLY don't want the feds knocking on my door. So- I will take a strict stance there, for protecting my own well-being. My server isn't hosted in a country where anything goes.
If- it is content which is against the rules of the instance where it was posted- by all means, I will give the admins a chance to handle the issue. Otherwise- nuclear option.
You are right to be concerned here. Since it touts self hosting, storage should’ve been decentralized and encryption designed in a way to legally protect hosters. Alas, we have what we have, which will require a lot of moderation until it matures more. Fingers crossed. Being responsible is the best we can do right now.
There shouldn't be one "not cool" list on signup, that's just /r/popular then. Every user should be able to make their own list. And every other user should be able to subscribe to any other user's list if they don't want to manage it themselves. But it shouldn't bet set up and defaulted by the admins. If you aren't able to at least do the bare minimum to curate your experience then just go back to facebook or reddit with their recommendation engines.
I will elaborate. Every user can and should make a list of instances they personally don't like, but admins/mods are also users. They're just telling you that we don't like these instances, but it's your choice on whether you want to block them or not. Maybe they shouldn't show it to you upon signup, I sort of agree there but a new user showing up and needing to start by cleaning up the place to their liking is a bit of friction for them. Will make a stronger selling point for another server that just defederates by default.
How to radicalize a normie.
Some people are so fragile that the MERE EXISTENCE of ideas they don't agree with are an existential threat, whereas I am proud to have friends and neighbors that we do NOT always agree. Ironically, having people around with different thoughts and ideas is actual diversity, which is the opposite of these 'curated safe spaces' that these overly ban-friendly instances seem to crave.
It's not a difference of opinion, it's spewing of hate and misinformation. By the time you address one thing, they've spewed another ten. So you stop and then it goes unchecked. I suggest you watch the "innuendo studios" channel on YouTube.
But de-federating ENSURES it goes unchecked....
Only in that little sub, and doesn't spread to the rest of the fed. Or shut it down like it was in this case.
But you're missing 2 points:
It's not merely a difference of opinion, which many people welcome. It's the spewing of hatred and misinformation.
There's no countering it because of the asymmetry of bullshit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law It goes on and on and on, just flooding everything.
It's genuinely reassuring to see people with such an outlook on things. There's nothing worse than absolutists putting everything in the same bag.
I don't know if you mean that as sarcasm. But we're talking about The Donald. That's one bag, or even one aspect of it. Not everything on the spectrum.
There was no sarcasm on my end. To reformulate: it's reassuring to see someone saying that we shouldn't consider the spewing of hatred and disinformation as valid, thought provoking, and nurturing opinions.
So block them and move on. Or if you disagree with them that badly, push to have that instance/community added to a public blocklist/filter. Defederation, besides being an overly authoritarian solution, damages the network in a way that can and will make Lemmy into a worse place for its users.
As instances start to defederate, it will matter more and more which instance a user signs up to. This will push users towards larger instances. As instances get larger, they will become less and less reliant on 3rd party instances for content, those instance admins will be incentivized to defederate from them, as they will a) not have as much control over those instances, and b) start to view them as competitors rather than collaborators.
The beauty of Lemmy and federation generally, is that information appears centralized to it's users, despite being decentralized in reality.
The more defederation is used, the more centralized Lemmy becomes, whilest giving a more fractured, confusing, and disorganized experience to its users.
Defederation will kill Lemmy. It needs to removed from the protocol before it becomes too widely abused.
I see Lemmy going down in one of two ways:
In fighting and fragmentation with overzealous use of defederation leading to walled gardens, and a terrible user experience.
Or
A major player like google or microsoft sees the potential in Lemmy. Starts their own highly funded instance that is full of useful features and a wonderful smooth UX. (That is all proprietary and only usable on their instance, naturally) Then when the majority of users are on their instance, defederate from everywhere else. (If you don't think this can happen, just look at what google did to xmpp).
My own personal blocking does not solve the problem.
I think you're on a slippery slope argument, taking it from 1 to 100 awfully quick.
Users can't block instances yet
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/2397
I'm out of here if the community stays up. I've already blocked it, but we cannot be tolerant with the intolerant.
They need to go, and other instances would be right to ban. That's the only way this model works.
Then you'll always be led around by the nose by people you don't like. Block, move on. Be an adult. Other people don't need to decide on what everyone else can see. If you don't want to see it, you won't.
It's actually not. The fediverse is supposed to be pretending ideas that aren’t in line with yours are evil and the people who have them are incapable of reason or morality? That only perpetuates the divide. Truly evil people are a much smaller percentage of the population than the internet implies. Let’s actually talk about things openly and work together peacefully. Don’t assume you’re arguing with some evil bastard with horrible intentions. Assume you’re arguing with someone whose perspective has been shaped by their actual experiences and isn’t so dense they’ll never budge. Assume ignorance and not hate, but even if it's hate it's possible that they don't even understand why. It's something people can work with. Maybe then humans can accept MORE types of people than just the ones that are popular at the time. If you don’t think that’s a better future maybe you should look inwardly.
Seeing people here pushing back for once against the trigger-happy defederating mindset actually gives me hope in the future of this instance.
Yes! This has been a disaster on Mastodon, hopefully Lemmy will not repeat these mistakes
The server admin removed the community, maybe update your post.
I'm gratified that a lot of the conversations over there seem to point out that you shouldn't defederate entire instances because of a few bad actors. Realistically we can't all move to a new server every time a troll shows up, and the bigger the server the more likelihood of trolls.
I havent seen the donald or exploding heads content. if I was the admin of this instance id probably want to see blatant rule breaking examples to be able to remove them. is there blatant racism and whatnot over there or is it typical stuff meant to trigger liberals?
if there is blatant racism etc, have we reported it?
Honestly, the long-standing history of t_d's behavior, rule-breaking and brigading, on other platforms should play heavily into the decision on this one. This instance's admins should not wait until they cause issues here to prevent them from turning this place into a Nazi bar.
its just a dangerous precedent in my opinion. Are you okay with similarly vaguely worded arguments being used to have your favorite community banned?
Can we do a thought experiment?
You favorite community is up for ban. What evidence would result in your agreeing to ban it?
In my opinion whatever standard you would have for that question should apply to every community.
I mean that community does have a history so it's not really nothing. Just cause they haven't done it on this platform doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered. If the kkk created an instance but never broke any rules I'd think they're history as an organization should be grounds for a banning. The donald is not the kkk but I still their past behavior should be considered.
Hard disagree. If people are following the rules, they should be allowed to exist.
"Hey guys, this one is totally fine with having us Nazis, let's all go over there!"
Wait till they find out its not just lemmy that the donald people are on, they actually exist in the world too. Can we defederate the earth too? haha
Honestly- I think its just somebody trolling.
The username sounds like a troll, and the news posts they were sending were... comically bad.
I agree with you. However there should be recourse if the wider community on an instance agrees that there is a bad actor or community that needs to be banned. I'm fairly certain if we did a poll that the community would be banned.
just so you know we are rapidly setting up a community within sh.itjust.works to do just that at theagora community. There have been discussions of defederation.
I think we are trying to get some mods in place and a voting / polling process before hitting the defederation nuke / blocking communities etc
https://sh.itjust.works/c/agora
Let's just all take a breath. This instance has its rules, and I expect them to be adhered to for content on this instance.
Let's give moderator time to get involved, and the community time to navigate precident setting actions. I think it is cool this instance is being set up to be self governing. But it's just getting set up. And people work and are otherwise not constantly available.
I'm not from this instance but I'd caution heavily against letting an instance with open signups in a fediverse with a bot problem be 'self-governing'.
We're not just running polls and blindly following the results. I think the the goal of having a community discussion place is to help identify the people who are actively trying to participate in the process and then take their views into account in deciding the future of things.
Ultimately, like all instances this is functionally a dictatorship because @TheDude runs the server and has the ultimate say in everything. He's created an area where people can voice their opinions and his intentions appear to be to parse the discussion and make an informed decision based on the results.
I doubt he'd be fooled by some position suddenly having 2500 bot comments saying 'Nay'.
I just briefly looked at an agora post and it seems like that's exactly what's happening: lots of "Aye" with no discussion. Scrolling through more, people seem to be using upvotes/downvotes for voting.
By all means if you have a system in place to handle bots that have access to chatGPT then don't mind me, I'm just saying that bots should be taken into account lest humans get outvoted.
It's not an easy problem to solve and I agree that it has the potential to become a large problem going forward (LLMs make the bot problem even more difficult to deal with).
I've no idea how TheDude decides what opinion to follow but, so far, he's piloted the instance as well as anyone could expect so I'm willing to keep riding along to see where things go.
You specifically pulled up a [vote] post where that is the point. Try reading a [discussion] post.
There are votingg threads and discussion. lemmy doesn't have a flair system.
oooff didn't know there was TheDonald on this instance. Not very happy about that.
So as a user block the community and be done with it.
I'm not worried about seeing their content, that's something I can control. I'm worried that these trolls are going to get us defederated from the majority of lemmy. That is not something I can control, and it would suck to have to look for a new instance, make a new account, and redo all my subscriptions just because a bunch of red hats decided to make this server their home base for some reason. I don't want to be associated with them, so if they stay and we get defederated, I'm probably going to have to leave, even though I have so far liked this community.
It's not even red hats plural. It's just a guy.
Allowing hate speech and telling people to decide for themselves what to follow is moderate argumentation that gives more power to fascists. Taking the middle road always gives power to those willing to take it.
I don't know but it seems that this particular community didn't exist until the dust-up regarding explodingheads and the discussions that have occurred afterward, including the Agora vote.
So, to me it seems that it was started in retaliation to that particular discussion/event.
The active user at the core continually changes their display name, making it more difficult to know that you're replying to the same person unless you're checking the account, as they only mod the one community.
That alone makes it bad faith or trolling, however you want to phrase it, and it seems both the user and the community are at odds with the overall environment that many users came to this instance for.
I think it actively hampers the conversation we were having with beehaw regarding refederation, and don't disagree with their observation in the matter.
Yes, we as users can block them. And?
Call it growing pains call it whatever you'd like but I think that ignoring the larger context behind why it's here and here now is missing the point of why "just block it as a user" isn't the ideal solution.
That's really interesting about the changing display name thing, and given when the community showed up, yeah that seems to be bad faith or trolling. Yeah I think I'm in favor of banning them for that.
I think I've seen at least six different user names depending on the thread, including Agora threads.
It's absolutely all done in bad faith.
The way it should work imo is that users report them, and if they're a moderator, that goes to the admin of the instance, who then makes a call whether to ban the user and/or community.
Don't defederate because someone made a stupid community, report and work through the moderation system.
Wow, good observation.
Don't feed the troll
oh so you're actually a 12 year old
if that were true you wouldn't be resorting to this for attention
Reeeeeeee let me see so o can compare it to the black guy who is going to have sex with my girlfriend later while i cry and masterbate to trump saying “yuuuuuuuge” on old apprentice episodes! Reeeeeee!!!!!i hate trump
I didn't even know this "community" was even here, mostly because that's just one guy and a half talking to themselves.
1-2 angry contrarians is hardly a community but still,
I'm not a big fan of being associated with that.
Defederation as the one and only step is a bit nuts to me, as there are 6k+ other users here.
By that logic, anyone that ever had a reddit account also supported /r/thedonald back then, which is just not the case.
As for what to do with that troll, I couldn't care less if they get the boot, yet evading a ban on here isn't exactly hard.
IDK I think the community should get shut from the instance for violation of the no bigotry rule, given the litany of things Trump has said, a place allowing for only "Only high energy pro-trump posts." will inevitably break that rule.
Definitely, why wait? Free speech is free speech, but there is demonstrably nothing about this specific free speech that would make it valuable to the community. Keeping them around will just turn this instance into a nazi bar.
For clarity I'm fully behind yeeting this junk from here.
Nothing of value would be lost.
Didn't mean to downplay what they're trying to be nor how we should react.
I do think defederation is a bit much, or more accurately, it is worrisome that defederation would be the best tool for a remote instance to deal with that.
All the more reason for us to deal with it.
Nah, that's just giving in to bully tactics. If we're banning communities because other instances threaten to defederate, what exactly is the point of running a separate instance?
We should ban users and communities because they break our rules, not because someone else on another community doesn't agree with how we decide to run this instance.
I'm not saying to ban them because of outside pressure, I'm saying to ban then because there's absolutely no value in having them here.
Like the only possible reason for that troll doing good thing was to stir shit.
It's like some random guy taking a shit in your living room, maybe your family won't come over maybe they will, but it still smells like shit.
I don't get your analogy. Someone starting a community doesn't impact me at all because I don't have to ever see it. Someone trolling in comments is annoying, so I just report and block them and don't see it anymore.
So it's more like a channel existing on my TV that I absolutely hate, so I just don't ever watch that channel.
I never saw that person's posts, and the only reason I even knew about it was this thread, and within a day it was gone. It's the definition of non-news. Things like this are annoying for a day or so, and then the community takes care of it and it's done.
So it seems like this person achieved their goal of riling people up. Instead of making drama, just report, block, and move on.
Not again...
Sadly, I guess people believe a sledgehammer is the only solution to drive in a nail.
More like removing a sliver before it becomes infected.
Quick, I got a splinter in my finger.
Here, let me cut off your arm!
always the nuclear option. just armed to the teeth texan mentality
Instances could also remove, ban & purge that remote community to be done with it 👌🏻
That- is what I have been saying....
But, apparently, due to the actions of a single user, on this instance, I suppose everyone is now labeled nazi racists.....
Ah.. that’s wrong. It’s a different story when the admins/staff are actively supporting this but I don’t believe that’s the case
Are the admins officially letting this community exist, or have they just not responded about this? I realize it'd probably only been on their radar for hours, and the community is only 4 days old. But if they're okay with this community, I'm going to be worried.
My dim understanding is that "the admins" is one guy with a day job.
Looking at the post counts, I don't think ANYONE is supporting this...
Yeah, I'd like a statement from the admins. That would clarify their stance.
@[email protected]
See for their response: https://lemmy.ml/comment/909446
The Agora: https://sh.itjust.works/c/agora
Seems like a good way to test the concept of the Agora. Reading some comments here and elsewhere, many people appear to not be interested in democracy, and would rather have swift action from a leading group/person. I suspect this gives a hint at the fragmentation of the Fediverse, to come, where the tolerance of a single users action results in defederation. As instances grows to tens of thousands, I imagine the hunt for these people will become intense, with policing groups made to squash the wrongthink, in order to protect the federation.
I personally like the democracy approach.
After-all, its what drove the protests on reddit, and eventually landed up in many of us coming to here.
It's like people learn to stop sniffing their own farts for two minutes to have a protest and migrate to Lemmy, then they come here and just start sniffing their own farts again. What's the point of leaving if you want to turn the new place into the same as the old place?
If the instance was not meant for Nazis, then that community would have been deleted already.
You are literally on THAT instance right now. Are you a nazi?
Edit, you MUST be a Nazi. You are subscribed to the instance which hosts c/the_donald.
(See how this logic works?)
Haha.. this is kinda dumb and sparks joy 🥲
Yep, if the admins of this instance don't do anything, I believe I have to leave this place.
That is for the best. I don't appreciate having Nazis like you running around here.
You've turned to the Dark Side. 😂
Sometimes to beat them, you have to join them. And play their game.
in a nutshell, yea. why defederate from a whole instance over just one single community. just block the specifc community and move along. but people like escalation i guess :/
This feels like a gross overreaction to the situation. Sure, I don't love the fact that TD has a tiny presence here, but I fail to see how that should be cause to defed a large instance. Especially when that community just popped up recently, only came to anyone's attention in the last day or so, and (to my knowledge) hasn't caused any real trouble other than the Agora mod vote thread getting a bit spicy.
I'm sure it's something we'll need to address internally, but it's just one item on that list. And for now, it seems like a low priority item.
I mean, I am not happy about the community being on this instance given the 2nd rule in the list about "no bigotry", and it's kinda hard to praise Trump unequivocally and not be violating that rule...
It's hard to praise Reddit and Lemmy users for that either since they will be absolutely bigoted towards anyone they perceive not falling in line about narratives like trump, Ukraine, war in general, covid, environment, abortion, speech, gender, and more stuff I'm probably forgetting.
The scale of identity privilege allows for quite a lot of hate and bullying as long as it's in the right direction (but it's always very US centric, which is hilariously pathetic).
First, I'm fully against defederating any instance that isn't showing an instance wide bad actor status.
But let's be real, this isn't about a political belief.
It's about the banner of "the donald" having been used for disruptive purposes multiple times. The c/ needs to be removed because it's a "fuck you" meant to stir shit.
However, any instance that wants it, I'll be glad to create an account, create the same community, but dedicate it to a different Donald. If there's already a c/ in existence with the name, it's harder for the idea behind the subreddit to creep in. We take the name back
How isn't it political? TD was a rare manifest of a different idea having prominence and being subsequently attacked because "how dare it exist" at which point it went full "attack back" ans it became a ridiculous battle until the admins of Reddit decided they would go back to controlling narratives because the ad money wasn't that good.
Same as trump being banned for twitter. It IS political. There's one political party in the US that is treated as "literally evil" and we are supposed to get on board and fight amongst each other instead of pointing how corrupt and entrenches the parties are and.how auperficial de battle. Is.
But hey, if we pretend the whole world things in US terms and that anyone who doesn't subscribe to identity politics and bullying with self perceived moral superiority then of course TD and similar "wrongthink" has to be banned.
My dude. Did you stop reading after tha sentence? You must have.
Go back, finish reading what I said.
The dude has a pretty damning public record of being intolerant towards women and minorities, it's not like it's hard to find this stuff. Let's not pretend like a few bad actors being in the mix suddenly make this guy a patron saint. And even if you want to ignore him directly, it's hard to ignore the type of crowd that he gathers. Birds of a shit-feather flock together.
Dude. Every other politician out there in the last 3 years had a good record of being intolerant to people who claimed "my body my choice" but you won't care because "it was wrongthink".
It's not hard to find repubs and dema saying heinous shit and pushing war or hate against opponents but we have to pretend Trump is somw terrific thing. The patron saint is a bullshit. Strawman.
The type of crowd that gathers around wantijgn to ban dissent is actually worse and more damaging. You can only end up as a one narrative circlejerk if you go down that path. Specially when defederation seemiike a frequent thing.
Instead of leaving it to the useer, it's as if you want to change it to "follow the list of this mainstream person/newspape'.
The instance admins are free to express themselves just as much as any other group of people. If you don't like the outcome of their decision then you're also free to go and create an instance or move instances.
If a majority of their users decide they don't like the actions the administration of that instance are taking they can always move instances to one that more closely aligns with their viewpoints. If they choose to stay then clearly they agree and are very likely part of the group you clearly don't want to be associating with.
Nobody is entitled to the service that instance admins offer, and users are free to move as they see fit. Reddit made a unilateral decision we didn't like and now we're all here, why is a Lemmy instance any different?
If you don't like the Reddit change you're free yo go.. if you don't like this you're free to go.
Yeah. I get it. It's just so limiting. It's not sold as "the forum where God like admins get to say exactly how things go an malleate at their willing". Even forums had people do their own stuff without breaking or mass banning every 5 minutes.
Your last point on "this is no different to reddit" is amazing. Yes. It's different. Right now it's worse. Less people who contributeless and destroy the shape and userbase of the network everytime they don't fully get their way.
It's really looking worse. In subs, mods with power trips could be easily replaced. Here you need an account per instance and the subs get fractured.
I thought it was just beehaw but holy hell the entitled attitude to not have to listen to any type of dissent ever. Don't worry, you won't be exposed to too many users. You'll get your wish.
Did a load of people not get the joke or do I think it's a joke because its so absurd?
That was the The_Donald mod, so sadly I doubt it was a joke
Yes! I was thinking very similar to this. It's a big overreaction. It's a community of one person or very few. If you aren't on this instance then just don't subscribe or block it. If you are involved in this instance then figure out how to deal with it along with the mods. It seems very quick to jump to defederation of an entire instance for one person.
Sure they might shield their users from one community but they are also blocking them from access to all the quality content from here.
I've been using this instance more than beehaw cause i wanted a more broad federation view, but i don't want this place to become a Nazi bar. That small sub may grow. If it isn't banned then I'll probably move again and welcome the defedration
what if it doesnt grow at all and continues to be a downvote farm?
What a risk.
so you're getting rid of the Nazis, right? right?
https://lemmy.world/instances
You guys haven't even defederated from exploding head yet.... Also the dude gave us voting rights so it would be up to the Agora and vote.
Looks like [email protected] likely has a day job. Last commented 15 hours ago... Give it some time.
I figured it was either that, or, he is in a different timezone and likely sleeping.
He does.
Well I would expect God to know that
There's a matrix chat. 😊 Perks of being omnipresent.
Things in a DEMOCRACY takes time.
This instance, has a way, where they collectively vote on issues such as this.
But- you might say, THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IMMEDIATELY WITHOUT INPUT!
Just remember- that is EXACTLY WHY WE ALL LEFT REDDIT!!!!!
Do people actually not have day jobs and just browse reddit 24/7? Like what's the expected alternative?
I think that is a mistake. Plenty of nice folks on this instance people shouldn't jump to conclusions. Also this discourse on that thread is really problematic. The idea of defederating a whole instance over 1 community is terrible. I would understand. If most of that instance was a troll den that is definitely not the case with this instance
I agree, very much so.
As an outsider, I wrote already here my thougths. I'm against de-federating, since it's a nuclear option, but I would lie if I say that I'm okay with this situation. Add to this that this server hasn't de-federated exoloding-heads.com (a far right server that really hates trans people) but has no problem with blocking lemmygrad.ml (an awful Tankie server). But in the end that's your decision 🤷🏻
I really need to get in the loop on what a tankie is- I have never heard that term until I came over here to lemmyland...
A tankie is someone who defends Chinese and Soviet communism and denies that any of the claimed atrocities happen. In the name of Marxism-Leninism, or Maoism, or Stalinism, they get very angry, attack you and ban you if you think differently, and will fight to the teeth to claim that the tiananmen square massacre, the uyghur genocide, holodomor, any other genocides by Mao, Stalin or whoever you want who's communist, are Western imperialistic propaganda. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's a whole thing there just like nazis aren't just "people who hate jews but claim the Jewish genocide never happened". Tankies usually also defend Russia in the Russo-Ukrainian War (or "conflict" as they may claim). Then again, Trump supporters usually also defend Russia. Maybe the horseshoe theory is not that crazy.
Tankies have no meaningful communism to defend. They’re not defending communist states, they’re defending a right wing authoritarian oligarchy, and an authoritarian corporatocracy. They’re not ideologues. They’re contrarian bootlickers.
If you read their rhetoric, tankies do tend to defend communism in general. They grab the theories of Marx and Lenin and whatever to do this.
Oh yes of course in their stated goals sure. But in the day to day commentary it’s all just worshiping of authoritarian states that abandoned their core economic socialist principles decades ago.
Dang, why couldn't they simply be proponents of armored cavalry instead of an entire memeplex of bad ideas.
Sounds like your typical extremist.
Honestly- if you change around terminology slightly..., it also describes the far-right wingers AND the far-left wingers too.
I generally try to keep ALL of those types of communities removed... its not healthy.
Yup. That's what the horseshoe theory says lmao. That both extremes meet. That's why tankies are so similar to nazis I guess. Or maybe they're both just the same thing and people like saying ones are "extreme left" and the others are "extreme right".
Oh wow.... Thanks... for the link and heads up.
Basically a "communist" who supports autocracy over socialism. Someone who longs for a boot on their neck, because it comforts them.
Communist radicals. It's kinda like they worship stalin the way the c/ under discussion here worships the cheeto.
Is that a Europe thing, or is that happening everywhere?
Tankies are everywhere. It's the authoritarian side of socialism/communism. There's plenty of china related tankies too
To be fair, lemmygrad was blocked since pretty much day 1, largely because a number of other instances did as well. Exploding heads is a more recent thing, and that was after the agora was set up and the community is still figuring out what policies the instance should have.
I'm guessing exploding heads may be defederated as well, but it may take a few days to decide.
I am logged in to sh.itjust.works and I cannot see thedonald or the_donald. You guys sure it's still there?
The user and sub were banned by this instance's admins.
-
Good.
The admins of Lemmyworld and Beehaw should be notified so they can de-defederate this server.
They took action so quickly it seems. Notifying the server admins and giving the them some time to fix the issue first might have been a better way to approach this instead of defederating outright without the chance to correct the situation.
If I understand correctly this wasn't the aggravating issue, just a coincidence. Beehaw at least defederated because there were an outside number of problem users from both of the other servers and they felt like it was beyond their capacity (at the moment) to moderate that properly. They did reach out to the server admins at the time and there are plans to work together and create more robust mod tools.
Did lemmy.world ever defederate?, seems like it was just that post that was calling for it. Beehaw defederated from both about a week ago due to spammers
Lmao this is the perfect reason for why de federation should be a last resort. Imagine being led around by the nose by random trolls with 10 minutes worth of effort.
The actual funny thing is that you're convinced about being that important.
Ah is it you again.
dftt
I’m trying to understand this as a refuge from Reddit. I joined this instance because of the renewable energy commitment. I’m not beholden to this instance, but this seems like something a federated system could handle without banning an instance. Am I confused about how this works?
No- it can be easily handled multiple other ways too.
At THIS instance level (sh.itjust.works) 4. The community can be removed/blocked. This removes it globally.
Defederation is the complete nuke-from-orbit option, which should only be reserved when you have an instance that is unwilling to work with you to resolve issues.
Aka- you have an instance, owned by spammers, producing spam bots causing negative user experience.
I keep hearing this. Maybe. I should update my instance and let everyone know my server runs on pure sunlight too. lol
Was going to post this at thedonald but found I'm already banned. Oh well, it was low effort anyway. If anyone who isn't banned wants to execute this better please be my guest.
:(
I don't think that users on a fledgling platform should be this gung-ho about fragmentation, but it is what it is. Lemmy is starting to feel like something I should just revisit in a year: either to postmortem another perennially niche service, or to finally "pick a side" once the chips are more settled, even though I don't particularly want to.
As an early Mastodon user, it went through something like this when overt Nazis (gab, et al) federated and often used misleading names for instances. The result was an immediate reaction in disgust from the vast majority of the fediverse and rampant defederations of hateful instances.
As an early Mastodon once-user - mostly just to try self-hosting 4fun - that all mostly flew over my head and I'm hoping to do the same here. Though I did mostly follow Pawoo/Baraag artists, which I believe puts me on a similar side of history to said Nazis by current standards? I can't say I'm thrilled by the association but I do get it at least. At the end of the day, to me it just feels silly to get hung up on moderation policies set by people who have never met me, and whom I have never met.
And realistically, the main thing that tapered my interest in Mastodon is I have no idea how to become addicted to Twitter/Twitter-likes. 🤣 I should try again sometime, Misskey seems nice.
Hateful instance run by hateful admin? Sure defederate it. Don’t defederate instances because they’re trying to be more open and popular.
If- this de-federation movement doesn't stop- what will eventually happen-
The large instances will end up defederating so much of the fediverse, that it makes more sense for them to just enable the "private" checkbox.
The end-result, is the failure of lemmy.
It's only a failure from certain perspectives. It happens to be my perspective too, but I can understand where others are coming from. I suppose this is one of them fancy irreconcilable differences thingies.
Personally, I suppose what mostly peeves me about these kinds of approaches is that they don't really seem like solutions. Anyone from a no-no community is still free to employ the time-honored trolling tradition that is alt-juggling for harassment campaigns. Or, I assume that's the case - if there's one thing I really hope everyone at the table can still agree on, it's that extreme privacy-invading measures for preventing alts is a step too far: there's vulnerable voices across all parts of the opinion spectrum. Anyways, because alts exist, defederation measures always felt a bit performative from my perspective. But far be it from me to judge whatever helps people sleep at night. 🤣
I want to take the explanation that this is just a stopgap while moderation tooling develops at face value, but something tells me that isn't the whole of the truth. In the end, I don't think I'll care all that much no matter how this shakes out; touching grass is really fantastic for helping maintain perspective. 👍
Will note, I have been publishing a few scripts into the admins chat on lemmy.ml, to assist with moderation, and catching some of these types of content too.
Hopefully, we get some built in tools soon too.
Yeah man, unless we allow all manner of garbage it'll fail. Yeah man.Totally.
THERE ARE WAYS TO BLOCK AND REMOVE CONTENT WITHOUT USING A GODDAMN SLEDGEHAMMER!!!!!!!!
(as has already been noted NUMEROUS times in many threads)
YOU DON'T USE A STICK OF DYNAMITE TO REMOVE A DOOR.
FFS.....
This issue has been resolved.
The trouble with having a federated server containing a lot of users/communities promoting bigotry is that it dirties the name of Lemmy. The dirtying dissuades people from joining. It ultimately helps ONLY the group causing the dirtying and harms the majority.
No. It's main developer is just one dude who happens to be a communist.
You can find his github here with all the projects: https://github.com/dessalines?tab=repositories
I get your point. He may be a CCP apologist, but it's not the CCP itself.
Also, his project IS open source so... let's fork it? Maybe it's the only way we can ensure that the software is not being directed by any political bs.
There is one dirtier: capitalists.
If you think selling unregulated ice cream is the worst example of capitalist misdeeds you have a very limited imagination.
Oh yeah, the whole climate change can be more or less traced back to managers only thinking about the next profits but let's say, it's only unregulated ice cream...
(not saying the genocide doesn't happen, but capitalism probably Skills more people than China)
Capitalism, as we understand it today, is a relatively recent development in human history. For the vast majority of human existence, societies have been structured around other forms of economic organization like tribalism, feudalism, or mercantilism. Capitalism is not the default but a system that evolved over time in response to specific historical, technological, and social conditions.
There are multiple successful economies worldwide that blend elements of capitalism with other economic systems, such as the Nordic model of social democracy, which combines free market capitalism with a strong welfare state. If capitalism were the default, we would not see such variety in economic systems.
Nice pictures!
Now do all the wars, the US has started in the last 70 years.
And don't forget their "war on drugs" as well as the opioid crisis, constant gun massacres, slaves in third world countries and so on.
Again, I do not want to play down any massacre done by any regime but your "natural default" is just straight up bullshit.
Capitalism only holds that long because people think they can be the ones spitting down.
In socialism all shall be equal but people want to be better than others.
(... no i will not quote and emphasize that last sentence ...)
My goodness, what are you doing on this server? Who has tormented your mind wich such garbage?
Your post here is confirmation that sh.itjust.works is a toxic instance.
Look at the age of the account.
Why does the admin allow membership of an account like that?
While I blocked the community, I don't want my little community blocked because the whole instance is defederated. Should that happen I will leave - an advantage of federation.
Edit: I also blocked the 2 posters. There were only 2.
The most important thing people have on Fediverse is freedom of choice and, I hope, of expression. There are countless isolated communities outside of it, corporate or not, which one can use as a safe space when necessary. I really hope this decentralized archipelago will not turn into a) centralized echo chamber, or b) even more decentralized set of very small echo chambers. We need to be able to experience everything that there is, and react to it if/however we like. And for that, we need substantial amount of communities to be federated to everyone else. I hate when some delusional freak praises Mao or Stalin, who literally washed the land with the blood of the innocent and built a new order on their bones. Or when someone writes a trolling(?) post which implies open racism. But I better be able to read those posts than not.
Why? Racists and fascists can stay on their own instance. If you want to read those posts so bad, just find a server that federated with exploding heads or whatever. Or run your own instance, the one your account is on doesn't federated with either exploding heads nor lemmygrad.
On Mastodon, the overeager admins defederate instances which didn't defederate "bad" instances. Not just the "bad" ones but anyone who doesn't agree they're "bad".
Or just create extra accounts on exploding heads and lemmygrad.
I'm not threatened by their misinformation, and I'd rather be able to see all veiwpoints - even ones I disagree with - than end up in an echo-chamber.
They're the ones that require an echo-chamber to protect their delusions. Federating with the rest of the sane instances will hurt them more than us.
Defederation is a double-edged sword. In the end, those who defederate will lock themselves into a smaller space and lose out on content produced by users outside of their instance. With how hard it currently is to discover content, a big instance defederating from lots of other instances with little good reason can easily backfire. At least that's how I see it from what I currently understand about Lemmy.
I think people are trying to defederate to filter content, which is not something that defederating is good for right now, cause every big instance has a lot of diverse communities. Also, there's been concerns about bots and safety which makes sense, but that doesn't mean that we're under risk of staying defederated permanently or for any significant amount of time. Moderation tools, content filtering and discovery needs to become much better before that resolved for everyone in a satisfying way.
As for /c/thedonald and communities like it specifically, it's ridiculous to take what seems to me as satire as 100% serious straight up bigotry, but I do understand that we've seen communities with origins in satire turn to serious on the internet before. I think an instance-wide flag for communities that signals that the content is satire when you open them or see a post from them. Allow communities to be created with it from the start but only modifiable by admins afterwards, so you can't take it away or add it after a community is made. It might just work to mitigate this problem and help punish rule breaking quicker and easier.
Did- you intend on posting something?
I think be did
Interesting, I couldn't see that.
I didn't know about it until I checked Beehaw. It's easy enough to block the community so I can't see it, but I would rather it not be here. TheDonald and The Agora feel like polar opposite ideals.
I mean, what else do you want me to do about the issue?
There is too much content I wish to view at sh.itjust.works. There are lots of valuable communities in place.
As such, defederation, is not the correct tool in this case.
OK.... (From your earlier comment)
Let's be perfectly clear, this is YOUR BAR. (I am an outsider, visiting from a different bar, in another state).
That user, and that community, are 100% banned from MY instance.
Please post a link to a Nazi post on this instance.
Because, and I'm making a large assumption here, you're attempting to respectfully have a good faith conversation about a topic.
In this conversation you made an assertion, to wit:
and I requested that you provide proof of your claim. This seems like a reasonable request and philosophy actually has something to say about the matter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
So, show the proof that backs up your statement. If there are 'Nazis at [our] bar' then where are they?
I mean, if there isn't any proof of what you're saying then and you're just engaging in name calling and bad faith discussion then that would seem to violate the 'Be Respectful' rule of the instance.
Yes, if you're discussing 'Nazis at your bar' then you should point to the Nazis at this bar. Not at any Nazis at any bar on the planet.
So you're not here attempting to respectfully have a good faith conversation? That certainly saves me a lot of time in responding to you.
I would advice against the continuing disrespectful comments. Especially from someone who is so keen on seeing the rules enforced.
👍
Yeah just FYI if sh.itjust.works turns in to this kind of thing I will definitely move to a different instance
Dang... I just signed up and picked that instance since it's powered by renewables and the agora exists. I'll give it a minute to see how things go, but looks like I should switch to another instance.
Well shit, if that is your criteria for picking an instance- I meet all of the criteria. lol.
Was actually running completely off-grid for 2 and a half days this week too.
https://lemmyonline.com/post/3751
More drama now targeting sowing discord between the large communities. The Donald sucks but if we remove them then we have to make rules to what communities we will now allow or not. Can't just make special rules for one person.
We already have some rules including a no bigotry rule
So I guess as long as they can follow that rule they can stay, but I doubt it.
"No nazi shit" is a simple rule that should be the default on any decent community. That's enough to get rid of the_donald and anything like that that pops up, without slippery slopes or "special rules for one person"
Is posting about Donald or the American right "nazi shit?" It specifically has to be nazi shit to be nazi shit.
That is one viewpoint of mine.
If say- you ban the_donald from here- What is the basis that couldn't be applied to also ban https://lemmy.world/c/the_donald
One is hate speech coming from the right. The other is hate speech (self admitted) coming from the left.
I've seen them and blocked them immediately. It's a couple of sad losers posting news (or "news") articles. I'm one of the more vocal supporters of defederating that one instance since they've openly become a bigoted shithole and their mods are in favor of keeping it that way, but this? If T_D showed up on a different instance I'd be generally in favor of that instance banning that community and nipping the problem in the bud (Trumpers have been fine with sitting at a table with Nazis for a while) but I wouldn't be supporting defederaton over a couple of assholes on an otherwise decent instance. Assuming they're not bots, they'll probably get themselves banned soon enough for being awful if we've got enough mods here that can keep a close eye on them, and maybe just using the current rules the moment they start to be openly bigoted is the right play here.
I know the mod tools on Lemmy aren't terribly robust, but are other instances able to block individual communities without defederaton? I would like to believe T_D is a temporary problem here and I think it'd be interesting to see if the current set of rules take out the trash in a timely manner, or if they just fester while building a critical mass before infecting the whole instance.
Actually- that is honestly a good question
While- I can block a community, I do believe that may only affect my account. The purge/remove options exist as well, but, I do believe those are also temporary.
That being said-
At the database level, community_block is defined for a particular person.
Looking at the removed option,
From an admin's perspective, it flags the community as removed.
But, from a user's perspective- the community no longer exists.
That being said- I do believe the
removeoption might be suitable for this purpose.I could be wrong here (so forgive me), but wasn't one of the reasons that people flocked to this instance and others was because they didn't want some 'overseer' to make judgments on their behalf? Did they not come here for the freedom to choose what was important and meaningful to them and disregard that which wasn't?
I realize that there are growing pains going on here - that these instances which have been fairly unknown and relatively steady in their user base have now exploded in popularity and have caused many an issue upon communities and admins that were not prepared for such an explosive influx of users.
If we all really want to come together as a community, I believe it is important to understand all of the dynamics that are currently evolving and allow some time for all of this tumult (and influx of users) to settle down before demanding certain actions to be taken.
Personally, I came to sh.itjustworks because when choosing a server the message was "these more popular servers aren't taking new people, go elsewhere."
It said that there would be no bigotry tolerated and I took that at face value and it generally aligned with what I was looking for otherwise and was accepting new users, so I signed up.
I can't speak for others.
Now how that's evolving (Agora, etc) so it's a work in progress and you're right, things aren't necessarily moving on a timeline that suits everyone (including me) because many people are not used to situations where we're having to figure it out as we go along, so here we are.
Inevitable, the fee instances and the non-free instances tend to sort themselves out and clump together
Crazy that instances wanna defederate from a whole other instance because there's a community for another political party. Let people who challenge your ideas exist, jesus
But, the cool thing to do, is to call ANYTHING related to trump, or the republican party, racists. /s
@[email protected]
Are you just going to downvote every one of my comments?
This isn't reddit. Nobody cares about karma here.
Honestly, I am thinking you are a bot. Not a single comment written, and the only thing you have ever done on your account, is downvote every comment I made in this thread.
Even downvoted THIS COMMENT
This is fascinating, may I ask how you see who is voting on your comments? U didn't realize this was possible. Is it only because you're the admin of your own instance?
The easy way- you can view this same thread on kbin, which exposes who is upvoting / downvoting.
The other way-
The way lemmy and the fediverse in general works, anything published on a public instance, becomes public information.
Every action performed, is replicated to every subscribed instance. In this case, I was already working on building a few queries to provide to instance admins to assist with combating spam, and for kicks, I ran a query against some of this thread.... and discovered, said user just really likes downvoting my comments.
That's very informative! Thanks.
k
I don't like the ramping tribalism that's starting to go around, but escalating with more tribalism is definitely not the answer.
Being so defederate-happy would only doom this instance into an echo chamber, possibly even turning into the very thing they're accusing it of being now
Everyone i don't like is a Nazi/tankie/label. The internet is so predictable and boring around this.
Doesn't help when tech has sided with one US political party and we have to pretend that people need to fight amongst each other on identity bullshit issues instead of the political and corporate class doing whatever they want with their power imbalance
But hey, blue Vs red, this Vs that. Cry victim and bully...
We need users to curate their own content instead of demanding circlejerks of identical ideology and inconsistent rules.
Except I'm not American but I'm responding to a post about TD which triggers too many people by simply existing apparently. I wouldn't have even known if this post didn't say it.
And I don't agree with your take. I think the whole left right dichotomies are usually quite bs and people want to bundle stuff like a cellphone plan and most people just go along with no capacity to think for themselves.