Some frontend guy said this best. It was something along the lines of:
"JS frameworks went real hard in client side rendering and branding server-side rendering old and archaic. But that they hit performance issues and began re-adopting server side features and trying to make it look cool again after shitting on it for a decade."
I’ve got nothing against SSR, never have, but CSR or even better SSR+CSR side steps a metric shit ton of issues. I’ve written untold lines of code to render something out in PHP then needed to add jQuery logic to the frontend for UX/UI reasons and then I’ve had to duplicate UI generation in JS/jQuery to match what PHP spits back (think: add a new row to an interface after an Ajax call finishes). It’s hell, you have to keep the two in sync and it’s a bug minefield.
Compare that to CSR where all the DOM is generated though a single codepath. Now take CSR to the next level with SSR+CSR and you’ve got a winning combo. Fast initial render and SEO gains (if you even need that) and only 1 DOM generation pathway.
People want to sound all smug “Oh, back to SSR are we?”, “Uh yeah, we had to CSR first to get to SSR+CSR which is VASTLY superior to SSR alone”.
Tech is circular in that way. See also mainframes, to personal computers, to cloud or any other similar cycle.
Give it a year or two and we will be back to PHP. A lot of people are seeing the massive changes PHP has done and realizing it's just not as bad as it used to be. 7.x was a huge change, and 8.x is also doing great things. And so no one rages about my opinions, there's some sarcasm about "going back to PHP". Obviously the industry will stick to JS/TS for the most part.
PHP has been “not bad” for a decade. The problem is that it isn’t good and I can’t think of a reason to choose it for a new project when there are so many better, established languages.
Yes. Much like
https://xkcd.com/224/
the Internet is ostensibly all clever JavaScript frameworks, but actually leans heavily in out-of-sight places on big piles of plain old HTML.
Much like SQL, there's a million tools that will generate HTML, until we need a really specific output. Then we just cram the exact output we need into a text file and call it a day.
Hyper Text Markup formally known as Twitter?
https://htmx.org/
That looks pretty cool tbh
I just read it, sounds pretty cool to me. I shifted to the right on the curve I guess.
Just gonna add, that does look useful.
TIL HTMX
thx
You and I are off the fucking scale. In which direction? Nobody can sa... It's the left side. I am on the left side.
Some frontend guy said this best. It was something along the lines of:
"JS frameworks went real hard in client side rendering and branding server-side rendering old and archaic. But that they hit performance issues and began re-adopting server side features and trying to make it look cool again after shitting on it for a decade."
I’ve got nothing against SSR, never have, but CSR or even better SSR+CSR side steps a metric shit ton of issues. I’ve written untold lines of code to render something out in PHP then needed to add jQuery logic to the frontend for UX/UI reasons and then I’ve had to duplicate UI generation in JS/jQuery to match what PHP spits back (think: add a new row to an interface after an Ajax call finishes). It’s hell, you have to keep the two in sync and it’s a bug minefield.
Compare that to CSR where all the DOM is generated though a single codepath. Now take CSR to the next level with SSR+CSR and you’ve got a winning combo. Fast initial render and SEO gains (if you even need that) and only 1 DOM generation pathway.
People want to sound all smug “Oh, back to SSR are we?”, “Uh yeah, we had to CSR first to get to SSR+CSR which is VASTLY superior to SSR alone”.
Tech is circular in that way. See also mainframes, to personal computers, to cloud or any other similar cycle.
When you shit on php long enough and you end up reinventing php
kinda feels like they're trying to emulate server-side templating with shit like django and thymeleaf
Went real hard frfr on god 💀
Wait, new HTML dropped?
Actual element
Why do I feel this is just a dumb marketing attempt?
Me: what is HTMX?
Are web servers that serve real HTML responses still a thing? Honest question. I thought JSON+client side rendering were the default by now.
You're a couple years behind the SSR craze. We're back to what they were doing with PHP in the 00s except it's now done with Next, Nuxt etc.
Give it a year or two and we will be back to PHP. A lot of people are seeing the massive changes PHP has done and realizing it's just not as bad as it used to be. 7.x was a huge change, and 8.x is also doing great things. And so no one rages about my opinions, there's some sarcasm about "going back to PHP". Obviously the industry will stick to JS/TS for the most part.
PHP has been “not bad” for a decade. The problem is that it isn’t good and I can’t think of a reason to choose it for a new project when there are so many better, established languages.
I'd argue PHP didn't really "get good" until 7, but my own bias.
When will JQuery make its return?
Probably never because JS finally had a glow up and added/adapted the many features jQuery had and made it native.
Yaaay I love running node.js as my backend even though nobody thinks it's efficient
Yeah, PHP is extremely common and python frameworks like Flask and Django are getting more popular, but of course no where near PHP.
https://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php
Just one huge example of a Django user is Instagram: https://engineering.fb.com/2023/08/15/developer-tools/immortal-objects-for-python-instagram-meta/
Correct, Python is not nearly the clusterfuck that PHP is
Ah found the inexperienced developer
🙄
I'll admit that it's been quite a while since I've touched PHP, but that was never my main focus.
Coming from C-like syntax, Python looks horrible to me. PHP has come a long way with 7 and 8.
I heard a lot of complaints about Python, but it's looks weren't any of them. It's the sexiest language out there.
Since I moved to python I wish all languages would just drop brackets, they're dirt.
I hear it a lot from almost all my engineer friends, so I guess it just depends on your field.
All the cool engineers use Python to get shit done soon, and C to get it done right.
I've got a C background as well, and I find Python o br considerably cleaner (and the code isn't 50% dollar signs).
Aw shit is it 2010 again?
https://turbo.hotwired.dev/
While it's a new trend, it's not that new.
Yes. Much like https://xkcd.com/224/ the Internet is ostensibly all clever JavaScript frameworks, but actually leans heavily in out-of-sight places on big piles of plain old HTML.
Much like SQL, there's a million tools that will generate HTML, until we need a really specific output. Then we just cram the exact output we need into a text file and call it a day.
When the wheel is due for another reinvention.
laughts in vanilla stack
XHTML or what?
How is this different to react, angular, vue, etc.?
It’s not client-side anymore. You need a backend to produce the HTMX.
https://htmx.org/essays/a-real-world-react-to-htmx-port/
Hth,
Client side logic is contained in markup, no custom JavaScript. Need server-side-rendering logic to return new markup to update a chunk of the page.
Why does it have to be a spectrum on a line? Can't I say I understood what problem HTMX is trying to solve and at the same time say that it sucks?
We're trying to choose tools. This is no place for reason! /s
How does something like this compare against something like Blazor?
Like Blazor, it’s another way to do SSR.
Blazor isn't ssr tho. Well you can use it on the server with signalR but most people would chose blazor wasm
Oh crap! You’re right. What am I thinking of then? Razor pages?
Names are too similar…
Edit - Why does Microsoft want to make their stuff sound like American Gladiators?