2023 Dutch Grand Prix - [RACE] discussion thread
FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN DUTCH GRAND PRIX 2023
| Circuit stats | |
|---|---|
| First Grand Prix | 1952 |
| Number of laps | 72 |
| Lap record | 1:11.097 Lewis Hamilton (2021) |
| 2022 winner | Max Verstappen |
FORMULA 1 HEINEKEN DUTCH GRAND PRIX 2023
| Circuit stats | |
|---|---|
| First Grand Prix | 1952 |
| Number of laps | 72 |
| Lap record | 1:11.097 Lewis Hamilton (2021) |
| 2022 winner | Max Verstappen |
What a horrible weekend for Charles.
No kidding. Ferrari dropped the ball, and quite badly.
Probably better to have a damaged car on a weekend where Charles isnt 100% fit than on a different one
Ferrari just wtf this season.
Wet tires will probably never be used (unless enforced), even if the conditions are clearly full wet.
Teams are so greedy with staying on the inters so that even if some drivers pit for full wets, the race will inevitably be red flagged because someone staying on the inters will crash, which then makes you look silly for pitting for full wets a lap or two earlier.
Granted that they reinstated the positions of the previous lap so Perez is actually fine, but let Zhou crash one lap later and Red Bull would've been punished with Perez for doing the right thing for safety and to try and keep the race going.
I call the full wets "red flag tyres" cos we never see them on a car during a race for more than a lap without a red flag
The teams say that the wet tires are unusable. Pirelli would need to rework the formula for this compound for the teams to be happy with it
I think it's more about the visibility rather than the tyre compound.
The ground effect cars suck all the water up and spray it into the air, making it dangerous for anyone outside the first few positions
I think everyone agrees with that, apparently even perelli have called it the safety car tire....
I think the best suggestion was to make a much better tire between the two if they can - that reduced the amount of tires they are lugging around too.
Make the full wet better or the inter worse or add a third option, but something needs to change. Visibility concerns have been a legitimate issue in past races, but that definitely wasn't the case today.
Full Wets should be mandated for all teams in these conditions for a set # of laps. That would eliminate the teams gamesmanship, increase safety and avoid the embarrassing red flags. F1 is so poorly run.
When Alpine gets on the podium
Max on radio: 😃
Alonso on radio:😏😀
Gasly on radio: 😁😁😁😁🤯🤯🤯🤯😎😎😎
Was it the Dutch GP where there were allegations of sexual harassment last year? Or was that somewhere else? I dont quite remember
I think it was Austria that made the news last year, but there were a lot of Dutch fans
I can't think of many sporting events in the States that would have that same sort of response to a rain delay.
VER PER ALO
Nature is healing.
So happy for Gasly.
He was really happy himself :D
Why are they so obsessed about the Max-Perez pit stop. It wouldn’t matter, Max would pass Perez in a couple of laps anyways. He got the gap down from 10 to 2.5 sec.
I don't get it either.. They gave Perez inters first, dragged him up to the front, then Max got softs first, giving him back the lead.
They just saved Perez the embarrassment of getting passed by Max on track. Max is 6 seconds ahead already, for crying out..
It's absolutely insane. Verstappen is on another plane of existence this season.
I also think that it wasn't malicious, I think they had to defend against Alonso. The other choice would have been double stacking Checo and Max, coming with its own risk.
For those who are complaining: Jules Bianchi died under similar conditions in Suzuka 2014.
If anything, it took too much time to red flag the race. Zhou was in a very dangerous position.
If everyone had been on full wets then it would have been fine behind the safety car, but they don't pit because they expect a red flag. Catch 22
I am angry because zhou's crash 2as unnecessary. He was going way way too fast at that point. If he had not crashed, we could have possibly seen the race continue with people switching to the wets and since the field was spread, the spray would have been less of an issue
Yup, and more recently Dilano van 't Hoff in Spa. :’( Okay, that was Formula 4 and not 1, but similar circumstances.
The reason for the red flag will be because Zhou was in the firing line of anyone going off at turn one. Even at low speeds it could be fatal if someone went off into his stationary car or the recovery vehicle.
Exactly, in the Bianchi-incident Sutil was very very lucky that he didn't get killed.
They did exactly what they've done before. Reset positions per the last available sector timings.
Yeah but then you're putting the marshals in danger by having them recover the car with cars on the track in such conditions
It would be minimal risk--honestly not that different than dry conditions. Double yellows in that sector would mean cars are just creeping through.
Not really. Did you see the replay of Hamilton going off track?
Merc nightmare of a strategy, wow.
How did they get things so, so wrong?
Lol at Russell asking the same thing on the radio.
No kidding. He should be. I can't immediately recall the last time they so horribly botched things.
Sakhir 2020
Wow. Honestly that's telling. 3 years without badly fucking a race...
They really cocked it up
That slowmo of the redbull pit stop was incredible
According to Dutch social media the DJ started his Red Flag set with a song about "raining beer".
The fact they booked a live singer for the Dutch anthem shows a lot of confidence. Not that the confidence is misplaced of course.
F1TV has been referencing memes throughout the broadcast, the cooldown room was announced as "time for the podcast".
Crowd singing along to "Que Sera, Sera", the DJ is on point.
Compare the atmosphere here to e.g. Abu Dhabi, quite the difference.
At least they got someone with humour.
Whatever weather god: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
I just wish they didn't red flag. I want to see racing in full wet conditions.
Yes, but the recovery is happening at the end of the straight into the Tarzan corner, where most of the crashes happened this weekend.
Eh, I'm kinda split. I see why they erred more conservatively though, and it was probably the right decision.
On one hand Zhou was definitely in a risky position, but on the other hand I think everyone would have put on full wets on the next lap and the risk for another crash under SC/VSC would be very low.
I wasn't. Thanks, the whatever weather god.
Sargeant’s going to pull out a picnic basket lol
He looked more like he was considering how to word the updates he's going to have to make to his CV.
Pretty much. I wonder if this is going to put teams off of bringing more American drivers in because of how bad he's been.
But unfair to attribute it to his nationality lol there’s 300 million of us, Logan isn’t even the best, he’s just the richest kid that wanted to be an f1 driver
Look, I didn't say that's what should happen. But there's rarely if ever been a successful F1 driver from outside of Europe. So I could see the teams getting complacent and thinking "why try anything different".
Senna
Rarely. It's definitely happened before. Just...not often.
Man if I ever have enough money to go to an F1 race then I'm definitely going to the Dutch Grand Prix
Perez restarts as 3rd.
That's fair, I think.
Yeh, it's good to not penalise teams for switching cars to the safer tire
Putting him in 5th or 6th would not be penalizing him for switching to a safer tire. That position was where he was when the red came out. Do you think drivers should not lose spots when they choose to go on to inters or wets?
Drivers like Alonso didn't pit because they thought it would get red flagged and they would therefore lose out by pitting, even though it was the safer (and probably faster) tire. Where possible, they shouldn't be penalising pitting for a safer tire. The 1 sector lookback gives a little protection to drivers that do pit - but there was some discussion on if Perez would end up restarting at the back because he got stuck in the pit lane - that for example would have been a stupid penalty on safety
Absolutely agree he shouldn't lose spots under red, but giving spots back to someone pitting under yellow is insane and a terrible president.
If someone's tires are worn it would be safer if they put on new tires, should they be given spots back?
Should the drivers have gotten their spots back when they pit for inters?
It's fair, but it's not the rules. FIA just making it up again.
Was a sector countback to the last sector before the red flag.
I'll never understand why they can count minisectors when it suits them but then randomly say "we have no way to determine the racing order" on a red flag.
Might just be that the rules were written before the microsectors were a thing?
Or maybe the full sector lines have better equipment - they have a line, so probably have cameras on them too.
Good question though, would be interesting to know the real answer.
For anyone wondering.
Most pit stops in an F1 race, 88, 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix
we are at 35-36 so far if my maths is right
edit: 35, confirmed on-screen. need another shower to give a chance of the record :D
Interesting. Will be fun to see if that record is broken.
35 at the moment.
Another rain storm would see us at 54 if everyone pits
Then dry again, 73 if everyone pits
So it needs a fair bit to hit 88, maybe a late safety car.
Need to look at that Hungary race and see what the hell happened to cause 88 pit stops (just looked, like this one, race with intermittent wet/dry periods)
Per Perez's radio, there's another rain cell on the way, to arrive around laps 30-35, and dissipating who knows when?
Is any rain expected later in the race? They'll definitely break the record if that happens.
about lap 35-40
Man, Williams have utterly screwed the pooch this weekend.
If Albon had pitted for inters like everyone else he potentially would have been on the podium going into the second lot of rain.
Then with the second lot of rain they leave him out too long again and kick him down from 6th to 9th which they compound by putting him on inters when its clear full wets
Then they get him stuck in the damn pits.
Doesn't matter https://i.imgur.com/A8dJYDW.png I think.
well he is going to restart 9th, if they had pitted with everyone else on the second rain he would have been 6th
and he lost god knows how much time not going on inters in the first rain spell
Guys, you may track the race from this site as well. https://f1-dash.vercel.app/ . This was created by a fellow lemmy user.
This is cool. Especially for the radio messages.
Absolute disaster for Tsunoda. Couldn't have imagined the race going any worse for Yuki if I tried.
What happened to Yuki? He was in 13th and then suddenly 16th, TV coverage showed nothing 😞
His front wing did him in after contact with Russell earlier in the race. Just completely torpedoed his race.
Yeah, I thought he also got a penalty post crossing the line. Because one second he was ahead of Lawson, and then he was in 16.
They are giving max priority over Perez? Oof
well Perez got priority first lot of stops, fair Max gets it second time
Depends if max wanted to stay out or not on the opening laps
Perez definitely wasn't expecting it.
That was a clear undercut strategy
Absolute wild race so far.
Ponchos and raincoats reported in the crowd at the start/finish.
Yay, Ferrari!
Leclerc and Sainz honestly deserve a podium or three based on their driving independent of the team getting in their way, imo.
Restart in 10 min. I hope everyone will keep it whole
Already more entertainment than the previous two years.
I bet we've already had more overtakes than last year.
Especially at this point
Thankfully he got it back quick
Did a damn good job making up for it, though.
Thank you rain for making the first laps exciting
With rain in the distance I am a bit baffled by Lewis decision to try and do a longer first stint, big time gamble
I dont think it will work
Albon is overtaking on 23 lap old softs 😯
The Williams is looking downright fast!
That's the magic of Zandvoort with the banked corners.
And little wear on them in the rain + safety car laps.
Good points.
Jesus christ that rain came from somewhere :o
Welkom to de Nedderlands!
Happy for Gasly!
Did someone say rain? 😁
Nobody knows!
Masterstroke as Ferrari pit both cars at the end of lap one for inters
So.. somehow I was right, but Ferrari pit crew were totally unaware of it
That would be good news for Albon!
Narrator: It wasn't.
Perez, Leclerc & Russell need to stop crashing into cars/walls. They all threw it away. I feel bad for Albon though, he did everything right, bad luck.
Can we please get Yuki in the points this race? Is it too much to ask to see Tsunoda with possibly a career best finish?
Seems like such a likeable lad.
Piastri pitting again? Edit: ah, was his first
Damn that was bad timing
What an interesting race so far.
Ah, something else than that godawful Heineken trophy of the previous years.
That Moet guy must have been in shamble
Lol @ ferrari
Red flag just as Checo changed tires, ffs
Ask and ye shall receive.
They showed him sitting on the grass bank contemplating where he will go when he gets fired.
That was Sargeant, not Lawson.
That was Sargeant. A very sad Sargeant :(
Whoops, sorry
Fucking no! I was hoping Tsunoda would have eclipsed his career best. Wonder if Russell is going to pick up a penalty for the contact on the straightaway.
Edit: Here's hoping.
Everyone is probably doing the rain dance
It looked like Yuki turned into Russell so I doubt Russell gets a penalty
With the way things are going, and the damage to the front wing, looks like it might be a DNF.
There really aren't enough consequences to ruining a driver's race day.
Ricciardo fans conveniently looked away at that point.
More rain expected in about 20 minutes.
Alonso is 3rd, stroll 19th (and by a mile)
Just get stroll out of there, honestly
I wasn't really paying attention to him. How'd he end up so far back? Russell type situation?
Wasn't watching his pit stops. Probably not his fault.
He was lagging behind the soft tyre runners when it was raining, on intermediates
Rain on Max's visor - probably why he was pushing
Perez in the wet again...
Who's going to replace Sargeant next year? Any guesses?
What a race. Hope we get a restart.
It'll restart, they've got ages
Yeah, restart after 5 laps behind a safety car to dry the track.
I'd rather they ended it than use F1 cars as hairdryers again. They need to do something long term about this modern inability to race in the wet.
Couldn't agree more.
Gasly podium :)
Looks Like Norris just mugged bottas there without even having to slow down
Loving these changeable conditions!
Ffs, Red Bull pits Max before Perez.. they really want to lose that P2 in the drivers championship, dont they? Always giving Max preferred treatment
To be fair to them, they gave Perez priority on the first set of pits which catapulted him up from mid pack to the lead.
And nothing in the timing was suggesting that Perez would hold 1st anyway
You're right. Max definitely had enough pace that he would have overtaken on track if the undercut didn't happen.
Perez got the first pit stop so he is now in second. It’s a redbull 1 2.
No grid-walk today?
The one on F1TV just finished.
No Martin it seems, Karun and Bernie Collins just chatting instead.
Are you kidding Ferrari. No tires again!?
They got so lucky with with slick/inter delta. Their blunder is masked by how many cars were ahead on slicks.
Man I would love to see Albon or Yuki in the second AM.
I want to see Alonso in the red bull!
He would challenge Max just as well as anyone else on the grid.
Maybe not on pace, but definitely on racecreaft
Max wouldn't want to see that and neither would Christian, they would cause absolute chaos fighting each other
Now that would be an epic season
Why on Earth would the TV direction show Perez just when Hamilton may have overtaken Sainz
Ferrari being Ferrari.
For about 12 months it was funny, now I am really starting to feel for Charles
He deserves better
Next to Max at RB?
It’s like musical chairs out there
Did TSU get back past NOR? Who did he overtake last?
Gasly podium? He has had an incredible race.
Noo
Oh dear, I hope the rain works out in Lando's favor this time.
Not by the looks of it, 19th
So they have waited so long that intermediate tyres are MANDATORY!
Why do Pirelli bother making full wets?
Apparently the teams hate those full wet tires and dont want to use them. So the race directors are stuck in an odd place.
My man Zhou on P2, it won't last long, but still: let's enjoy the moment.
It's always surprising how many McLaren fans there are here. Those stands are packed with papaya.
/s
(I presume)
Max on afterburners
McLaren's lap times are insane...
With the lack of grip of those mediums I won't be surprised if Lewis crashes
At least we're seeing Max have to do some overtaking.
/me does a rain dance
I went to the kitchen to make a cup of tea, come back, how the hell did George end up 16th :')
Man, Mercedes have got this horribly wrong
He pitted late along with Lando. For some reason they wanted to replay the start like nothing was happening on the track.
Sudden rain and Merc insisted to leave both drivers on slicks, same with McLaren. All other teams pitted at least one driver for inters.
It sucks that their strategy didn’t work out.
And now they've gone back to slicks with light rain in a lap or two. That seems risky.
Sneaky Alonso at the start
Red Bull with the McLaren '07 strategy.
The McLaren's sure look good in racing conditions. What a fantastic driver pairing too.
That overtake on Gasly looked like Max pushed him essentially into the wall, why didnt Gasly complain?
They never penalize Max. Nothing will come of it I bet.
i think he will, but we need to see Gasly's onboard
Max is really punching it..
Edit: Catching Perez almost as quick as Perez was catching up when first on intermediates.
Lol at Stefano Domenicali not knowing how to do a high five.
Let’s see how long Checo can stay in first. Great strategy on inters but redbull
It's amazing how everything Redbull touch turns to gold. Pit stops just fell absolutely perfectly.
Also smart, they could have brought Max as team leader in first, but they give the weaker driver the early pit boost, knowing Max can pull it back in from a later stop.
Man Albon got fucked with that late pit call
they should have gambled and gone wets like Ocon has
Williams really have thrown away a podium this weekend
Definitely growing pains Williams will have to get through if they want to make it to the next step. I don't think they expected to be fighting for podiums already
Only down for Albon, is having made those softs last so long, he has no choice but to go onto under performing mediums
It's a wet race, idk why they didn't put on another set of softs tbh
No, he was on mediums.
Thanks for correcting me.
The camera shots on F1 TV make me doubt a lot of drivers will pit for inters. Didn't seem like a lot of rain was on the horizon.
Fairweather fans are going to love picking and choosing after this one.
FFS
Wow, Red Bull doing a Ferrari
F1TV speculated he came in without warning, but I'll guess we'll hear it what happened.
screw it, they should just gamble and put full wets on Albon
Norris already 2s back from ham?
Man, just imagine if Albon had actually pitted for inters with everyone else.
Williams very feasibly threw away a podium
20 odd seconds behind Alonso and threw away way more than that
What happened to Charles?
Retired, floor damage, very slow.
Chance of a rain red flag at the end? Will a team angle for it and stay out?
Perez angling for the win
Hehe, yeah..
Gasly thought he himself got another penalty when the team first told him about Perez' penalty lol
Fernando smelling a victory.
I like how they all amically clapped the Prince lol
It definitely would have if they didn't red flag the race.
Race control should NOT be dictating tyre compounds.
If they’re wrong and someone drops it and loses points it’s race controls fault and that team have a very good argument to void these laps.
I think they just did it as safety, because otherwise everyone would pit for inters
Glad Russell's out, but also glad he's okay. He should have gotten a penalty in my opinion for the contact on Tsunoda. Now Gasly with the podium finish.
For fuck's sake. Let them race on full wets.
EDIT: Sorry. I was a little rash. More frustrated that we had to have a red flag because teams tried to force Inters rather than Full Wets.
They've got a car to get off the track, in a turn where several drivers have gone off.
They couldn't safely recover the car
They have to remove Zhou's car. The race would finish under the SC without the red flag.
There was a car in the barrier, the didn't want a bianchi repeat.
They need to make the inter more wet I think.
I think Bianchi died under a full safety car?
Edit - not true.
Williams are a shitshow. That is all. And I'm honestly not sure Sargeant is up to being a Formula 1 driver.
They have to recover the crashed car?
They can't safely put marsials on the first corner to recover the car
But not in full rain conditions. Remember when we had two race directors last season? One of them is gone now because he didnt throw a red flag at Suzuka in the rain with a stranded car and a tractor on track.
Yeah, because Max is such a terrible driver and needs all the help he can get.
Seems you have nothing better to do then spout nonsense? All we need to know is your take on keep driving in this condition with people on the barriers where cars can slide into it, even on low speeds. What a moronic take to have. And then the need to piss on Max in several post, you utter child. Get a life and leave this to people who actually like and understand F1.
Don’t bother posting facts on an F1 community. They don’t care about facts.
You MUST support Max above all others even though we all know he has been gifted BOTH of his championships by the race directors.