As much as I like the idea of anyone but merich and evil individuals and corporations paying more taxes, wouldn't this result in airlines dumping the extra cost on customers and in private planes being registered in some tax haven (and leaving the EU every six months to avoid taxation, quite possibly flying empty)?
I mean... I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad idea... I'm just saying that "studies" that just calculate how much could be made from some policy change as if the increased tax revenue was the only consequence are not solid bases for policy change.
If the tax is on fuel then it wouldnt matter where they are registered, they'd be getting refueled in the EU and so would pay the tax.
wouldn't this result in airlines dumping the extra cost on customers
yes, partially. If the increase in tax results in a particular flight being £50 more expensive for example they will rise prices by an amount. But it likely wont be the full 50 as airlines are already charging what they think the optimum price is, the price going up is likely to result in less sales.
It also incentivises the airlines to be more fuel efficient (and so less damaging to the climate), and punishes worse offenders like private jets more as the use more fuel per passenger mile.
Can't you make that argument for any tax? That's not really how it works. They charge as much as they can based on supply and demand. They can't just increase prices or they already would have. They aren't setting the price where it is to be nice.
Yes, that's exactly the point. We could calculate how much taxing 100EUR per pair of horrible white terry socks would make in theory, and then people would just stop buying white socks and we wouldn't make whatever number we calculated (it would still be a win in my book).
They charge as much as they can based on supply and demand.
Not really: ticket prices (at least the economy ones) are mostly driven by competition and so cost is a big component of price.
Anyway, I wasn't arguing against taxing aviation: I was arguing that supporting extra taxation based on a "study" (in quotes because IIUC it's a publication from an interest group rather than an actual, peer reviewed, scientific study *) that solely calculates the potential theoric revenue is... it's just stupid.
* and even proper scientific studies are kinda a dime a dozen for any economic theory and its contrary, which doesn't however mean we shouldn't at least try to think about what actual, practical, tangible consequences a change in economic policy is likely have
Yes, that's exactly the point. We could calculate how much taxing 100EUR per pair of horrible white terry socks would make in theory, and then people would just stop buying white socks and we wouldn't make whatever number we calculated (it would still be a win in my book).
Oh, if you're just saying that specific number is wrong, then yeah, probably. It's an estimate. I don't know if this estimate includes estimated decrease in consumption or not, but yeah it's likely not completely accurate, and that's always going to be the case.
Not really: ticket prices (at least the economy ones) are mostly driven by competition and so cost is a big component of price.
That's true when there aren't alternative methods of transportation competing with them, but travel inside of Europe has to compete with trains. If they increase prices they lose customers to trains. For other routes, sure. All their costs will increase and you don't have another choice.
and even proper scientific studies are kinda a dime a dozen for any economic theory and its contrary, which doesn't however mean we shouldn't at least try to think about what actual, practical, tangible consequences a change in economic policy is likely have
This revenue would come from us paying higher prices for airplanes. It’s just another tax on us. Private jets - sure, but the majority of this 1€ trillion would come from us, plebs flying to Mallorca on holidays.
Don't you think they'd already be charging more for flights if they could? They are trying to set them as high as customers will reasonably pay always. This tax doesn't change that. It only changes their costs.
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As much as I like the idea of
anyone but merich and evil individuals and corporations paying more taxes, wouldn't this result in airlines dumping the extra cost on customers and in private planes being registered in some tax haven (and leaving the EU every six months to avoid taxation, quite possibly flying empty)?I mean... I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad idea... I'm just saying that "studies" that just calculate how much could be made from some policy change as if the increased tax revenue was the only consequence are not solid bases for policy change.
You typically don't pay these taxes where you register your plane, but where you land/take off and in which country you fly.
So it may reduce the number of flights (esp. empty flights), which is actually good.
If the money is reinvested to develop high speed trains, the impact on tourism would even be minimal.
If the tax is on fuel then it wouldnt matter where they are registered, they'd be getting refueled in the EU and so would pay the tax.
yes, partially. If the increase in tax results in a particular flight being £50 more expensive for example they will rise prices by an amount. But it likely wont be the full 50 as airlines are already charging what they think the optimum price is, the price going up is likely to result in less sales.
It also incentivises the airlines to be more fuel efficient (and so less damaging to the climate), and punishes worse offenders like private jets more as the use more fuel per passenger mile.
Can't you make that argument for any tax? That's not really how it works. They charge as much as they can based on supply and demand. They can't just increase prices or they already would have. They aren't setting the price where it is to be nice.
Yes, that's exactly the point. We could calculate how much taxing 100EUR per pair of horrible white terry socks would make in theory, and then people would just stop buying white socks and we wouldn't make whatever number we calculated (it would still be a win in my book).
Not really: ticket prices (at least the economy ones) are mostly driven by competition and so cost is a big component of price.
Anyway, I wasn't arguing against taxing aviation: I was arguing that supporting extra taxation based on a "study" (in quotes because IIUC it's a publication from an interest group rather than an actual, peer reviewed, scientific study *) that solely calculates the potential theoric revenue is... it's just stupid.
* and even proper scientific studies are kinda a dime a dozen for any economic theory and its contrary, which doesn't however mean we shouldn't at least try to think about what actual, practical, tangible consequences a change in economic policy is likely have
Oh, if you're just saying that specific number is wrong, then yeah, probably. It's an estimate. I don't know if this estimate includes estimated decrease in consumption or not, but yeah it's likely not completely accurate, and that's always going to be the case.
That's true when there aren't alternative methods of transportation competing with them, but travel inside of Europe has to compete with trains. If they increase prices they lose customers to trains. For other routes, sure. All their costs will increase and you don't have another choice.
Isn't this why we have studies?
@nemeski Every nation should tax all private jets.
ALL of 'em.
This revenue would come from us paying higher prices for airplanes. It’s just another tax on us. Private jets - sure, but the majority of this 1€ trillion would come from us, plebs flying to Mallorca on holidays.
Wrong. It would mainly come from companies flying consultants around for their daily work.
You may fly once? Twice? Thrice ? For your holidays. Some people fly every single week.
And it's mostly American firms. So make them pay.
Don't you think they'd already be charging more for flights if they could? They are trying to set them as high as customers will reasonably pay always. This tax doesn't change that. It only changes their costs.