Single Transferrable Vote (STV)
I am going to preface this by saying that this was shared with me by a friend and I am still trying to get my head wrapped around it. I am not an expert or even well read on the subject but do believe that the voting systems in Canada need to change. I post in the interest of building the discussion in this community.
I like single transferrable vote (STV), but it’s unlikely to catch on because it needs number crunching in the backend to apportion the excess votes to (hopefully) improve proportionality. I can see it being accused of corruption by the fact and critical-thinking challenged demographic.
Baden-Württemberg solves that by saying that every riding has two members, one who wins the popular vote, and one who is selected from the runners-up in a manner that best enhances proportionality, but still focuses on the high vote earners.
Mixed member proportional representation (MMR) is too easily gamed by parties to embed unelectable party hacks/loyalists (as experienced in NZ).
I appreciate you sharing this to spark discussion. As someone deeply concerned about electoral reform in Canada, let me address these points systematically.
If you haven't already, take a look at: A Simple Guide to Electoral Systems, and other information in the sidebar.
The criticism of STV being "too complex" or vulnerable to accusations of corruption is a common but misguided concern. While STV does involve mathematical calculations to distribute excess votes, these calculations follow transparent, predetermined formulas - not arbitrary decisions. Several democracies like Ireland have successfully used STV for decades without significant corruption accusations. The benefit of STV is that it maintains local representation while ensuring proportionality, and allows voters to rank candidates by preference - expressing their full democratic voice. Even if STV is "too complex", that doesn't mean we should compromise on a fundamental democratic principle: proportionate representation.
Regarding the Baden-Württemberg model mentioned, it's an interesting hybrid approach. However, it's important to note that this system isn't fully proportional. It's a form of parallel voting that attempts to improve proportionality while maintaining FPTP elements. This half-measure approach would still leave many votes without meaningful impact on electoral outcomes.
The criticism of MMP being "gamed" to include "party hacks" is a design issue, not an inherent flaw in the system. New Zealand's challenges could be addressed through better implementation - for example, by using open lists where voters have direct input on which party candidates are selected, rather than closed lists where parties have complete control. Open list MMP is the variant of MMP advocated by fairvote canada.
What's crucial to understand is that any electoral system using winner-take-all mechanisms (like FPTP) systematically discards votes. In our current system, millions of perfectly valid ballots have zero effect on representation. This isn't just mathematically inefficient - it's fundamentally undemocratic.
Both STV and properly designed MMP would be vast improvements over our current system. I slightly prefer STV because it doesn't formalize political parties in the electoral process, but either would ensure that vote percentages match seat percentages - the core principle of democratic representation.
What's your view on electoral reform? Have you looked into the mathematical comparisons between these systems?
Do it like the way Ireland's PRSTV Radiolab has a few minutes on it in their podcast episode called Tweak the Vote. It's 15 minutes in
I really like ranked ballots, since they map to MPs. Party lists feel gross, because they're controlled by internal party machinations.
But either would be an improvement over what we have now.
Yeah, I'm with you here. Parties are not a fundamental part of our electoral system, they're just a way for politicians to organize themselves. In theory you could get rid of all of them tomorrow morning and our institutions would still work: We'd elect MPs, which then elect a Prime Minister, who nominates the cabinet, etc.
I'd prefer having all MPs being still beholden to their constituents; "floating" MPs couldn't be held accountable. Also, could an independent get elected to a "floating" seat? If not, that doesn't seem fair to me.
Ranked ballot is easy to use (just put the candidates in order), easy to understand, and makes sure everyone's preferences are taken into account when selecting an MP.
Hi, I believe we’ve had a short chat before.
Your arguments, while I acknowledge them to be valid, are not something that I believe should be addressed by an electoral system.
Why do you think that we have the right to deny, say, a gun freedom advocacy group, for running for office, as much as their taking of the office could be a scary one? If you could give a reason why, how does that prevent someone else to declare that climate advocacy groups shouldn’t run for office, and try to give some reason that sounds sufficiently legitimate to enough people? And what comes next?
The guardrails that you speak of work to shut people off. Is that how a democracy should work?
If an electorate is that concerned with gun freedom, and think that it’s more important than issues such as a dilapidated public infrastructure, then sure, they can vote for whichever party that will support gun freedom, and that party will have a better chance at winning, assuming a healthy voter turnout. This applies to both winner-takes-all systems and PR systems.
But gun freedom is likely not the only issue people have in mind. The gun freedom party can’t just stay as politicians over that one issue. How would they handle foreign relations? What about our national debt? No single issue platform can give us answer to every one of those larger problems.
So I say let these people speak their minds. If enough people actually support them and they have enough support to even form government, then such is the reality of what your nation cares about, and the numbers tell you that.
Or perhaps do you not believe that Canadians are inherently good and reasonable people? Perhaps you think education has really failed this country that people can’t think sufficiently well for themselves? I’m not sure where this issue with, say, religious parties trying to voice their opinions on how they think things should be run, is coming from.
If a single issue is enough to make people put their vote into, why wouldn’t a larger party simply make that promise themselves, as long as it still somewhat aligns with their party goals, or is not in the way of their goals, and eat the single-issue platform’s pie?
And if anything, we already have single-issue politics, right within our FPTP system, and I don’t see why this wouldn’t happen under ranked ballots or instant runoff as well. Instead of forming a party, they lobby, and whichever party adopts their stance will win their votes, along with whoever else they can influence. There already is a subset of the electorate that are geared into thinking that way.
I don’t think there’s a good solution to mitigating single-issue politics, perhaps other than good education about our governments and institutions. It certainly isn’t solved under PR, and, as you said, could possibly lead to the proliferation of small single issue parties (though I believe larger parties will absorb their vote by promising the same while offering more), and it certainly exists even today under FPTP, just not as a party but a lobby group, and it will no doubt exist similarly as a lobby group in other winner-takes-all system.
To the “brainwashing our kids” crowd, my stance is that the kids can decide for themselves if it’s brainwashing, as long as we aren’t actually doing that, and is instead simply equipping them with the ability to think on their own. So I’m not bothered by them, and I think we should make that narrative clear enough, with experts in and out of power to have their say, and the rest can complain all they want. I do understand that that doesn’t always work well in our political climate; just look at the carbon tax, but if we hold ourselves back just because some crowd might fight back, and essentially do nothing, based on the trajectory where things are going, I fear that we’re only sleepwalking ourselves into ruin. This applies to adopting PR as well.
In other words, I’d rather we say that we’ve tried to do things that we have good reasons to believe are good and may actually steer us in the right direction, than go for something that might please more people but is no different from our current trajectory.
I won’t argue against your pessimistic views on life and humanity; I too sometimes think that way. It can be somewhat comforting, maybe in a bit of a twisted way, but it can make us feel a bit better. But I will say that it’s not helpful to others and yourself to keep thinking like so, about how a lot of people just seem too stupid, or that they are born into stupidity and are thus conditioned into thinking that stupidity is the norm, and that there is not real progress.
Real progress is being made, even now, despite all the chaos that we know of. The fact that people can talk about these problems, internationally and openly, despite some threats from those who despise it, is unthinkable 70 years ago, or even 100 years ago, and further. If that’s not progress, I don’t know what is.
History is repeating itself, but it’s not without its differences and variations.
And despair isn’t the end. Where there is despair, there is hope.
While I’m somewhat dejected that I can’t convince you to open up, I hope it becomes part of what you would think about again in the future.
Best wishes there