Would You Rather Give Up Meat Or Flying For The Environment?
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How about instead this "personal responsibility" bullshit we focus on the actual causes of global warming, I.e. massive corporations that create the majority of greenhouse gasses
Why has it to be either, or? We need both. Systemic and behavioural changes on all levels. And we need it now. We no longer have any time left to shift the blame back and forth! I'm getting so sick of this blame game!
It's 100% personal responsibility, it's just that part of that responsibility is to vote/convince others for more systemic change. All the kids just blaming the "biggest 100 companies" while not voting and making no lifestyle changes are just as bad as the people they critizise.
If you put it this way: sure. And those famous "biggest 100 companies", which are constantly used as a cheap excuse to not do anything on a personal level, are run by maybe 1,000 or so individuals. And employ a few 100,000 individuals.
All decisions are 100% personal responsibility, because entities like corporations or nations can't decide anything. It's always individual people.
Yeah I mean I agree with you. Most people who won't even take basic personal actions like not flying on vacation twice a yeah and not buying a stupid oversized car. If those people were put in the same position as these CEOs you can bet your left buttcheek that they would maximize profits in the exact same way. We need to both take individual action and also hold each other accountable by changing the law and applying social pressure.
In what way did I insinuate, even hint on not voting?
You didn't. My point was more that voting isn't enough. Just because there are worse people, that doesn't mean that we are free of blame. The entire west is living very unsustainable lifestyles. So we both need to stop the big polluters by voting and we also need to do our own part to strive towards reaching sustainability.
If everyone suddenly changed their lifestyle to be more sustainable, world would still go to shit. Because again, individuals combined contribute minimally compared to corporations individually.
Not to mention, "carbon footprint" is a myth made by british petroleum and spread by big oil. It is made exactly to scare people like you, making them think responsible for problems not caused by individuals.
Only way to combat climate change is systematic, not individual. You can do you and be more sustainable if you want, but don't spread lies made by the ones actually responsible.
If everyone changed their lifestyle the we would solve the climate crisis. It's not like the big corporations release co2e because it's fun, they do it because the people want the products (and they want them at a cheap price). Corporations are no angels by any means but they are directly downstream from the people.
It's obviously more complicated than that but the idea that big corporations have the sole responsibility is just shifting the blame. You are still responsible for the portion that you put into the atmosphere.
@Anemia @TheBlue22
It's not quite as simple as that. There are the carbon emissions we actively produce such as fuel in motor vehicles. Then there are passive emissions from transporting items such as foodstuffs which we are not directly responsible for. So changing lifestyle can only achieve so much. Feedback mechanisms such as carbon sequestation through planting trees needs balancing against additional gasses from melting permafrost etc. A global government level effort is what is needed
What does voting for Capitalism have to do with helping the environment? They are 100% orthogonal to each other.
I didn't even mention capitalism? Are you responding to the wrong person? My argument is that people ought to vote for the more environmental option.
The fact that you don't even realize that capitalism is the problem and then you think voting for one of the two capitalist parties will fix anything, shows you don't care about the problem enough to think deeply about it at all.
Even if I agreed with you, voting is still important. We need to do what we can in the current situation even if you don't think it is the full solution.
What type of action do you propose instead?
Targeted action against the c-suite of energy companies and board members.
How about both?
And who do those corporations sell to?
The majority of the shit they sell us doesn't ever get bought.
How do you think those companies pollute? Are they burning fuel at Shell's headquarters? Or do they have lots of customers who think their personal behavior doesn't matter?
The goalpost for individuals is pushed further to make up for what corporations are doing, which is...(reads notes)...nothing.
I keep reading that. But it's not that simple. Corporations provide what individuals want. Their exploitation of the world's resources and the damage to the climate is a side product of that. They aren't a completely separate entity that do what they do just to be evil.
Governments need to heavily restrict corps and how they operate. Which will come with increased prices and limitations to the people. Which is unpopular and will mean that those politicians won't get back into office...
Which is why nothing will happen and we are all fucked
Yeah, but all the people taking multiple flights a year for weekend getaways aren't solely the responsibility of the "corporations", are they?
That's not true. Corporations concede nothing until forced. And many countries are foceing corporations to do things.
For example, it's illegal in many countries for corporations to have short-distance flights where a train route is available.
We need more laws like this and corporations will do better.
Came here to essentially say this. Our individual contributions are meaningless in the face of the abuses by corporations and wealthy individuals.
Do you vote? Because it's the same principle - how one person votes might be irrelevant, but millions of people voting is powerful. This is true even though corporations have outsized influence on the political process.
Likewise, a single person deciding to not eat meat one day a week or replace one car journey with cycling is nothing in the global scheme of things, but a billion people all doing it will have more impact on the environment than any corporation ever could.
I see your point, though I think the comparison isn't quite accurate. My one vote doesn't get canceled out many times over by the vote of a billionaire (though I suppose you could argue that lobbying by that billionaire could indeed cancel it out.
I guess I'm just growing pessimistic. For as much as I personally do, I feel its a drop in the water that is negated 1000 times over by corporations and wealthy individuals. I'm also tired of the narrative being focused on individual effort instead of pressuring corporations etc. to take more responsibility. But both individual and corporate/government action are needed, I suppose, if we're going to save ourselves...
If you want people to give up flying you need to give them alternatives. I always choose train if it's available. And for meat we don't have to collectively give up meat, eating less meat (once or twice a week) would be totally efficient in limiting the CO2 emissions
I've been doing this a few years now. Trying to slowly introduce more and more new vegetarian/vegan recipes into my life. Worth it, in my opinion.
It’s really not hard. I think the extreme emphasis on going veg/vegan is actually harmful. Just eat less, find good veg recipes, then eat a little less, etc. You can get 90% of the way there and not even miss it much if you do it gradually.
How about you redirect this question to the people actually responsible for setting the planet on fire and inevitably turning my children's futures to smoldering ash? I can only just barely afford to eat meat, certainly not every day, and any form of travel is a distant, impossible pipedream.
This is not my fault or responsibility. Life under capitalism hasn't afforded me that luxury. I do not get to make decisions, they are too expensive.
I've grown up under capitalism to and giving up meat was easy.
It's at least not more expensive (maybe unless you live in bumfucknowhere and they won't properly stock beans).
Both are necessary.
I gave up both, problem solved lol
I too am poor!
Branding is key. You're not poor, you're ✨frugal✨
You're extremely not wrong! 😅
Imagine asking yourself this, like flying was ever fucking necessary ever.
Just make private jets illegal or tax the fk out of each trip
Ban bunker oil. It's used in shipping container boats. It's the most polluting fuel out there.
Can I keep both and instead hold corporations responsible since they're responsible for like 90% of climate change causes.
No you can't. How do you think those corporations pollute? Do they do it for fun or because they have customers that feed their businesses? The idea that "heading corporations responsible" will magically solve all problems and that it doesn't imply any change in your lifestyle is beyond naive. Shell pollutes because people buy and burn their fuel, they're not burning it in their headquarters.
In fairness, I once worked at a brewery, and the ridiculous and immense water wasting that went on there, as a result of procedures and policies that were simply lazy, were enough to more than overcome all of my water savings in a year, every single day.
They're not doing that because their customers like beer and keep buying it. They're doing that because water is cheap enough that the company doesn't see it as an issue to crack down on, and the workers doing various procedures that use the water can't be bothered to shut it off when they're not using it.
I'm talking even simple applications like a hose used to rinse off some equipment occasionally through a day. Rather than only turn it on when needed, install a shutoff valve closer to where it's being used, or installing a nozzle at the end, they just let the hose run the entire shift, with water running from the hose straight to the drain for the majority of an 8 hour shift, every single day.
Not gonna lie, while I still do lots of little things to save water around my apartment, that experience made me chill out about most measures to save water that were any sort of inconvenience to me at all. I still don't actively and intentionally waste it, but I'm far less strict with myself about it since learning that, as I said, all the water I save in a year is more than undone in a day at that brewery.
Businesses do lots of waste, I agree. But again, businesses exist because they have customers. Some people seem to believe that the climate crisis can be solved with taxes alone, but that's not how it works. Huge changes on all levels are required.
Water is basically free, and should be basically free, because you can't really "waste" it. It stays regional and assuming you live somewhere that is sustainable, i.e. not a desert, that particular anecdote isn't really a problem. I absolutely have no problem with a brewery, or any industry using "too much" water. Assuming of course that the water they are using and flushing down the drain isn't polluted.
It really depends on where you live. In Australia, fresh water is relatively scarce, and desalination is a difficult and expensive process. Any water used ends up in the ocean or another unusable location.
.
Seems like in a sustainable world, people shouldn't be living there. and the fact that it is Australia tells me people only live there because of some kind of subsidized extraction economy, which shouldn't be happening at all.
How about we nationalize the energy industries and incorporate the social/environmental costs of them into our long-term planning so that we can have our cake and eat it to?
Given I haven't eaten meat in 19 years, how many airmiles does that buy me?
Haven't eaten meat for over 10 years. Other than having to manage my feelings of superiority nothing much has changed.
Change needs to be a lot more radical than reducing global CO2 by.. maybe 20%?
If we live plant-based we'll need a lot of less land. We'd need some serious land to free up this land for the wild and rebuild eco systems. And it would still not be enough, because the rising heat will just destroy it anyway.
So expensive sequestering technology at source needs to be made mandatory globally and everybody will feel the hit of that. Producing (and sequestering) CO2 will be so expensive that the market will find viable, cheaper alternatives.
Why not both?
Flying easy. Flying fucking sucks. Yeah I'd love to get a leg clot for $300 and 6 hours in your packed fart tube. As long as every private jet gets grounded too.
man we need to start being a little more creative, and end all this binary thinking about everything.. THIS OR THAT: CHOOSE there has to be some hybrid solution here.. flying meat of some kind, i don't know, i'm not an architect of meat solutions.. but we have to find creative solutions, that ease transitions for economical reasons and shit.. maybe highly mobile buns..
The answer is the illustrious fifth meat...it's people.
okay, okay, get those creative juices flowing.. i'm sure we can come up with something a little more androcentric maybe than that, but let's keep that energy.. Kobyashi Maru, people.. Kobyashi Maru.. you're all James T. Kirk, let's go..
I'd give up both. Remember the week of global lockdown and people in India realized they could see the mountain range from their home? Fucking pollution, everywhere had amazing air quality for that week
I know it's not your question, but we probably don't have to give up either one. Just do a lot less of it. It's a lot easier to convince people to do less or seek viable alternatives than to give it up.
There's also a good chance that both will become greener with better, greener tech.
We could also just abolish cruise ships and prevent far more pollution than banning air travel.
Nobody really needs to be on a cruise ship IMO.
I've taken one trip in the last 15 years where I flew, so it's pretty rare for me anyway, but hopefully, improvements to train infrastructure in the US will lead to more people taking that route. Idk if battery tech will get to the point where jets can be run off them, but I could see them moving over to renewably-generated hydrogen. Use solar/wind to generate hydrogen and use that hydrogen in jets, large construction equipment, farming machinery, etc.
And while I still eat meat, I've been moving towards more plant-based foods whenever I can.
Definitely meat - I’ve been vegetarian for a very long time and vegan since COVID, and no plans of stopping anytime soon! Flying is a bit more difficult, but I work from home and when my work requires me to travel, I’m lucky that I have the ability to take a train, so I do that. I do like traveling occasionally, and for some of the places I want to go, I can’t realistically avoid flying.
If anyone here is interested in giving up or reducing meat intake but needs a little advice or extra support to get started, please let me know. I’m happy to share any knowledge and tips I can!
I live with my folks and I can't say no to them serving me meat. I tell them I'd love to reduce my meat intake and they agree ... only to put meat on everything l the time. When I order or cook alone I try going vegetarian if I can.
What are some good vegetarian inspiring websites/cookbooks that you'd recommend for the next time I'm out grocery shopping?
I used to go veggie before and I found the meat cravings pretty crazy. Do you do impossible or beyond? Or do you stay away from those entirely?
Offer to cook one meal a week for the family, and take it as an opportunity to showcase meat-free meals. If they're dyed-in-the-wool carnivores, you'll have to start with typical meat dishes using substitutes e.g. lasagne made with soya mince.
Fortunately as an individual I don't have to give up either and it's pointless for me as well. As a member of society I will automatically adjust my habits to how we structure society. If society has decided to get rid of cars, then we are free to fly and eat meat while still massively decreasing total greenhouse gases to well below sustainable levels.
For some reason, petroleum industry sponsored "think pieces" like this that proliferate through green communities always structure the problem as an individual one. I wonder why they are always framed that way?
Meat. I live on the other side of the country from my family, and the only way I can have enough time to visit them is by some form of high speed transit. Since there’s no high speed train in the US, I’m stuck flying.
Meat for sure. Giving up flying means giving up seeing my family. Probably one of the last things I would sacrifice, personally.
Since I fly only like once every 20 years, I say neither.
I'd do both and gladly. I've already reduced both significantly below average.
If I got 3x the vacation time from work to let me travel by oceanliner or airship I’d happily stop flying — but that would never happen. So instead we just have to use discretion for both. Eat more mushrooms & beans; take trips closer to home by rail. And yes once in a while enjoy a nice steak or take a trip overseas. Moderation is key.
It must be nice to have a robust public transit system...
I haven't had a reason to fly since 2004, and I last ate meat 3 hours ago. I think my answer is obvious.
Givung up meat is 100 times easier.
Every market sells rice, beans, and veggies. But I'm still looking for that trans oceanic passenger ferry.
I've flown once round trip in the past 24 years.
I've eaten meat twice in the past 24 hours.
Giving up flying I would probably not even notice for a long time, while I would miss eating meat by this evening.
I know that's not the situation for everyone, but for me, it's not even a close decision.
Been vegan for 3 years now. I lost my superpowers once when a restaurant gave me cheese when I asked for none. I wasn't going to waste food.
Flying sucks ass. So, I'll give up both?
If Taylor Swift stops flying how many of us does it count for?
Flying, I haven't been on a plane in 25 years, and I have no plans to ever get on one again. But I love a good steak.
I don't know how long it has been, but I haven't had a compelling reason to fly since before 9/11/2001. I guess that's about 25 years.
For me, both price and time are very compelling reasons to fly, unfortunately.
The state of the environment is an even more compelling reason for me not to. But for many people it's not. That's why the price of flying must be raised enough, and alternatives like traveling by train must be made more attractive. So that there is enough reason not to fly for everyone.
High speed trains exist, just not in places like the USA. We could have more environmentally friendly coupled with similar time convenience. It's truly unfortunate that it's never been invested in, because its a viable and much less damaging alternative.
I live in Germany, where high speed trains are the norm and traveling by train is pretty common. It's still much more expensive than flying. But at least it's getting faster and faster, to a point where it beats traveling by car or even plane. Munich to Berlin (600 km) in less than four hours, nothing can beat that.
Man, fuck flying.
Flying. I don’t like that shit anyway.
Definitely meat. I'm omnivorous now, but have been vegan for years and vegetarian years before that. Its actually ideal if you can afford it/ find the right dumpsters.
I have not found an efficient and fast way to travel across the ocean as i am not an experienced large vessel sailor and/or do not have access to a deep ocean worthy vessel.
The answer is "yes". Only have flown 3 times in my life of 45 years, and to be honest, 2 times was superfluous, disappointing and unnecessary, more than 20 years ago. And meat: I don't need it. I enjoy the hunted meat from my cousins, though, and fish. I'm too soft to butcher our chicken. And my daughter and wife would kill me if I do...
Meat probably. I need to travel for work.
I gave up flying a while ago, so I guess I’ll keep that up.
Airfare has to be the winner here right? With the way our global economy is currently set up we still require airplanes to deliver goods and people vast distances quickly.
I’d much rather eat veggies anyway. I’ve just grown to recently really like vegetables more than the meat part of a meal.
Medical supplies yes, but not shit like flowers, cherries, or tourists. Tourism is oversold and I'm so done. Especially cruise ships, just using international waters to dump their garbage
On that note: we really need some regulation on what's allowed on open ocean. It's to important of an eco system to survive without regulations.
And you enforce them at port.
Is it even possible to give up flying?
Very yes.
If I had to go to Europe or Japan, how am I supposed to accomplish that?
You don't have to.
I get it. You guys are just trolling.
Why do you need though? Just make a zoom call.
But you don't, though.
You don't
Exactly, now you get it.
I have neither.
Could I give up meat for year if I plan on going on vacation that year and eat meat on non travel years?
I eat probably 21 meat meals a week. I still choose meat though. Definitely need some ideas for veg recipes. My favorite veg meal I’ve made is shakshouka, but nearly everything else always falls a little flat. What are some of your guys’ favorite recipes?
As a meat-eater, Jesus Christ you should probably cut out some meat.
Veggie pizza (time consuming, but I make extra dough)
Veggie Lasagna (it's a pain to make though)
Relish tray (sliced veggies like broccoli, bell peppers, celery, carrots, etc, maybe crackers and cheese or flat bread, and either Hummus or dip) (cheap and easy)
Veggie quesadilla (easy)
Couscous
slow cooker veggie chili (cheap and easy)
slow cooker curry and rice (cheap and easy)
roast dinner minus the roast (corn, green beans, steamed Broccoli, mashed potatoes, roasted beats, Yorkshire pudding, gravy)
veggie ground it cottage pie
veggie ground for spaghetti bolognaise (easy)
Nice, thank you! And I’m not really serious since I only really eat two meals a day but it’s usually a sandwich at lunch and then a dinner with meat.
I’ve made a vegan lasagna and it was tough but rewarding, veggie lasagna sounds nice and non vegan cheese probably ups the ante a bit
I love shakshouka with aubergine that shit's great. Anyway, vegan here and most of the stuff i eat is indian food (a lot of that stuff is vegan or at least vegetarian by default), middle eastern food with baba ganoush/hummus/falafel or east asian foods with tofu or tempeh. I find that just veganizing meatdishes take a bit of skill and fantasy for it not to just become a lackluster version of the thing you already like and are used to.
I just hate flying.
I barely fly as it is... so easy choice
I haven't flown since the late 90s. So meat I guess since we have things that are close enough now.