and a well rounded vegan diet is not cheap.

Not the person you are replying to, but want to counter that part specifically. The cost is actually usually the other way around. It's much more of a privilege to consume large amounts of meat and dairy

From a modeling study looking at healthy plant-based diets:

It found that in high-income countries:

• Vegan diets were the most affordable and reduced food costs by up to one third.

• Vegetarian diets were a close second.

• Flexitarian diets with low amounts of meat and dairy reduced costs by 14%.

• By contrast, pescatarian diets increased costs by up to 2%.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study

From some real world spending data

Based on primary data (n = 1040) collected through an online survey, representative of the Portuguese population, through logistic regressions, it was possible to conclude that plant-based consumers, particularly vegan, are associated with lower food expenditures compared to omnivorous consumers. In fact, plant-based consumers are shown to spend less than all other consumers assessed

https://agrifoodecon.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40100-022-00224-9

Compared to meat eaters, results show that “true” vegetarians do indeed report lower food expenditures

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921800915301488?via%3Dihub ---(looking at the US)

And yet rice, beans/lentils, pasta, vegetables, and spices are all vegan, and are all the staples for low-cost meals in grocery stores the world over. Where do you live where that isn't the case?

You know you can't actually argue against it, so you point to a small hypothetical edgecase as if that will excuse your behavior. You are the one who lacks perspective and demonstrates extreme entitlement. You think because there may be some people forced between starvation and factory meat that it somehow gives you moral superiority and permission to destroy the lives of others. I go out of my way to make things better, you desperately search for anything you can to distract from all the harm you selfishly cause.

You don't even have the strength to let other people do the work. You feel like you need to go out of your way to attack and intimidate them because it makes you feel so inferior. Lucky for you, there are people on the planet to take care of things for you while you just sit by and moan and complain. We work for a better world despite you while you complain about our efforts, you entitled little brat.

Other people have handled you naivety well. Now, please do your part and fix your diet for the sake of everyone on the planet. You want to stand up for people, so stand up for them by showing some self-control.

Yeah, absolutely, you're totally right. That's definitely the most common way to go about it, and maybe the most effective, I really don't know. There is a bunch of gentle nudging going on, though, and everyone responds to different things. For some people, no amount of loving hints will get them to do anything. Some people just need the genuine blunt truth to get them to actually think about something. Honestly, it's like any other addiction, the desire needs to come from within, nobody can force them to get better.

I dont buy that many people are unaware or never thought about it before. It's brought up all the time. The issue isn't a lack of information, it is that most people just have almost no personal moral compass, they just rely on the behavior of the masses to dictate to them what is right/wrong. The more people remind them that what they are doing is disgusting, the more likely they will be to eventually change. I figure just machine gun 'em with all various forms of reminders, and we'll get through to some. Eventually, we will hit a critical mass, and the sheep will follow. The most pathetic will cling to their cruelty addiction until they are dead, but that's the same as what happened to the racists, rapists, child abusers or anything else that used to be more accepted.

There is no point in talking reasonably. This is our planet they are destroying.

You can try to pass the blame onto them all you want, but the obvious reality is that the billionaires can't sell disgusting over-drugged factory farm meat to billions of people if billions of people don't buy it. They only have power if you willingly give it to them.

The game is over, YOU are the problem, and only YOU can stop your own disgusting habits. No more blaming everyone else for your own complete and utter lack of self-control. Live in your guilt. You are screwing us all over because you are unable to admit responsibility. You are an abusive husband who beats his wife and then blames her for it. Nobody with any amout of common sense is still believing your tired old excuses.

Future generations will know what you did, and you will disgust them. They won't even be able to comprehend how you could be so vile and uncaring. Get used to it, Grandpa. That's your future.

If you will buy it, they will sell it.

Corperations are not people. They have no moral compass. They do what their customers will pay for.

Customers are people. Customers can choose based on any criteria. Convenience, morals, pleasure, whatever they value.

You are the customer. By buying from animal agriculture, you are saying you value what they are selling.

Yes, the thousands, millions, billions of customers matter. YOU are a customer. YOU MATTER. And if you choose to value something that is pure evil for all involved except your taste buds and their bottom line, then yes. You share in the blame. Especially now that you know what it causes.

Love plants, eat vegans

Ever wonder why those old racist people who are stuck in the past are how they are? It's because they think the same as you do. Unable to learn from those around them, obsessed with never growing, and utterly self-centered. You'll be tolerated, not respected. As increasingly more and more people point this out to you, the more likely you will be to change.

it's not just the antibiotics that are the issue. animal agriculture is a giant contributor to pollution of water, lands, and air as well as being a major cause for the destruction of rain forrests. the level of meat consumption in rich countries can not be scaled to the rest of the world.

thats ofc is ignoring that all animal agriculture is extremely fucking immoral and cruel and honestly unconscionable.

We already have tightened regulations. In the USA you can no longer buy antibiotics off the shelf. You have to now get an RX. We here in the US aren't really the main driver of this. It's been mainly foreign beef production in countries where there is little regulation.

Maybe someday you'll get invited to the party so you can stop speculating about what's going on at it.

I would be unsurprised by the natural progression of your selfish depravity. Hopefully, you take it far enough that you just eat yourself to death, and we can get to work fixing the selfish shitshow that you leave in your wake.

Jesus... But thanks for having your sources ready!

We'll feed them antibiotics by the shovelful but won't vaccinate chickens...

I dug in (thanks for linking sources) and there are some promising details. The ~80% figure for the US is from a 2011 report (even though the citation states 2014...), so it's very old. In 2019, the US began an initiative to increase awareness of this issue and address it, see the progress here (pdf link).

Not trying to counter the narrative, but at least we're talking about it on the federal level, so maybe that can provide some optimism to people.

Don't worry, it gets worse! Certain farmed animals are particularly susceptible to infections like shrimp and oysters. These animals are kept in open water pens and antibiotics are routinely DUMPED INTO THE OCEAN to protect the stock, naturally contaminating the ocean at large and giving bacteria in the wild just enough exposure to antibiotics to develop resistance.

If you want to support responsible antibiotic use, avoid all farmed shellfish, don't buy any meats from India or China, and only buy free range chicken; these are the biggest global offenders. If you're European, avoid meats from Greece or italy.

• A widespread lie is that the vegan diet is "clinically proven to reverse heart disease". The studies by Ornish and Esselstyn are made to sell their diet, but rely on confounding factors like exercise, medication or previous bypass surgeries (Esselstyn had nearly all of them exercise while pretending it was optional). All of them have tiny sample size, extremely poor design and have never been replicated in much larger clinical trials, which made Ornish suggest that we should discard the scientific method. Both diets included dairy.

• Vegan diets are devoid of many nutrients and generally require more supplements than just B12. Some of them (Vitamin K2, EPA/DHA, Vitamin A) can only be obtained because they are converted from other sources, which is inefficient, limited or poor for a large part of the population. EPA+DHA from animal products have an anti-inflammatory effect, but converting it from ALA (plant sourced) does not seem to work the same. Taurine is essential  for many people with special needs, while Creatine supplementation improves memory only in those who don't eat meat.

• The US supplement industry is poorly regulated and has a history of spiking their products with drugs. Vitamin B complexes were tainted with anabolic steroids in the past, while algae supplements have been found to contain aldehydes. Supplements and fortified foods can cause poisoning, while natural products generally don't. Even vegan doctors caution and can't agree on what to supplement.

• There is an extremely strong link between meat abstention and mental disorders. While it's unknown what causes what, the vegan diet is low in or devoid of several important brain nutrients.

that is no longer the position of the academy

science around veganism is highly exaggerated. Nutrition science is in its infancy and the "best" studies on vegans rely on indisputably and fatally flawed food questionnaires that ask them what they eat once and then just assume they do it for several years:

• Vegans aren't even vegan. They frequently cheat on their diet and lie about it.

• Self-imposed dieting is linked to binge eating disorder, which makes people forget and misreport about eating the food they crave.

• The vast majority of studies favoring vegan diets were conducted on people who reported to consume animal products and by scientists trained at Seventh-day Adventist universities. They have contrasting results when compared to other studies. The publications of researchers like Joan Sabate and Winston Craig (reviewers and authors of the AND position paper, btw) show that they have a strong bias towards confirming their religious beliefs. They brag about their global influence on diet, yet generally don't disclose this conflict of interest. They have pursued people for promoting low-carbohydrate diets.

• 80-100% of observational studies are proven wrong in controlled trials

• Vegan land use comparisons are half-truths that equate pastures with plantations. 57% of land used for feed is not even suitable for crops, while the rest is often much less productive.

• Grassland can sequester more carbon and has a four times lower rate of soil loss per unit area than cropland.

• Vegan infographics always portray beef as a massive water hog by counting the rain that falls on the pasture. 96% of beef's water usage is green and it can even be produced without any blue water at all. The crops leading to the most depletion are wheat (22%), rice (17%), sugar (7%) and cotton (7%).

• water footprint is divided into green (sourced from precipitation) and blue (sourced from the surface). Water scarcity is largely dependent on blue water use, which is why experts use lifecycle models.

Many, if not all, of the institutions that agree with the AND either just echo their position, don't cite any sources at all, or have heavy conflicts of interest. E.g. the Dietitians of Canada wrote their statement with the AND, the USDA has the Adventist reviewer in their guidelines committee, the British Dietetic Association works with the Vegan Society, the Australian Guidelines cite the AND paper as their source and Kaiser Permanente has an author that works for an Adventist university.

Swiss Federal Commission for Nutrition https://www.blv.admin.ch/dam/blv/en/dokumente/das-blv/organisation/kommissionen/eek/vor-und-nachteile-vegane-ernaehrung/vegan-report-final.pdf.download.pdf/vegan-report-final.pdf - The positive effects of a vegan diet on health determinants cannot be proven, but there are relevant risks regarding nutritional deficiencies. Children and pregnant women are advised against adopting a vegan diet due to the risks described above. - There is still a lack of data whether the basic nutritional requirements are met and whether the development of children and adolescents fed on a vegan diet is secured on a long-term perspective. These data should be collected and analyzed more systematically. There is in our view up to now no evidence that a vegan diet can be recommended for these age groups - Based on these data, there is no evidence for the position stated in the previous report, that vegan diets are healthy diets. - The scientific evidence available to date is not sufficient to claim that vegan and vegetarian diets are associated with a significant reduction of total mortality - The reduction in IHD and all-cause mortality with vegetarian diet stems mainly from the Adventist studies, and there is much less convincing evidence from studies conducted in other populations. European Society for Paediatric Gastroenterology, Hepatology, and Nutrition (ESPGHAN) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28027215/ - Vegan diets should only be used under appropriate medical or dietetic supervision to ensure that the infant receives a sufficient supply of vitamin B12, vitamin D, iron, zinc, folate, n-3 LCPUFA, protein, and calcium, and that the diet is sufficiently nutrient and energy dense. Parents should understand the serious consequences of failing to follow advice regarding supplementation of the diet. - Although theoretically a vegan diet can meet nutrient requirements when mother and infant follow medical and dietary advice regarding supplementation, the risks of failing to follow advice are severe, including irreversible cognitive damage from vitamin B12 deficiency, and death. German Nutrition Society (DGE) https://www.ernaehrungs-umschau.de/fileadmin/Ernaehrungs-Umschau/pdfs/pdf_2016/04_16/EU04_2016_Special_DGE_eng_final.pdf - Any diet that does not lead to the intake of adequate levels of essential nutrients and energy is unfavourable. The DGE recommends a diet that includes all groups of foods in the nutrition circle - including animal products. - Special care is needed for groups with special requirements for nutrient supply, e.g. pregnant women, lactating women, infants and toddlers. - On a vegan diet, it is difficult or impossible to ensure adequate supply of some nutrients. The most critical nutrient is vitamin B12. Other potentially critical nutrients on a vegan diet include protein resp. indispensable amino acids and long-chain n-3 fatty acids (EPA and DHA), other vitamins (riboflavin, vitamin D) and minerals (calcium, iron, iodine, zinc and selenium). - With some nutrients, a vegan diet without fortified foods or dietary supplements leads to inadequate intake, which may have considerable unfavourable consequences for health. - The risk of nutrient under-supply or a nutritional deficiency is greater in persons in sensitive phases of life, such as pregnancy, lactation and in infants, children and adolescents taking or being given a vegan diet, than in healthy adults on a vegan diet. - Since rejecting any animal foods increases the risk of nutrient deficiencies and thus of health disorders, a vegan diet is not recommended by the DGE during pregnancy or lactation, or for children or adolescents of any age. French Pediatric Hepatology/Gastroenterology/Nutrition Group https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31615715 - The current craze for vegan diets has an effect on the pediatric population. This type of diet, which does not provide all the micronutrient requirements, exposes children to nutritional deficiencies. These can have serious consequences, especially when this diet is introduced at an early age, a period of significant growth and neurological development. - Even if deficiencies have less impact on older children and adolescents, they are not uncommon and consequently should also be prevented. Regular dietary monitoring is essential, vitamin B12 and vitamin D supplementation is always necessary, while iron, calcium, docosahexaenoic acid, and zinc should be supplemented on a case-by-case basis. Sundhedsstyrelsen (Danish Health Authority) https://www.sst.dk/da/udgivelser/2018/~/media/2986643F11A44FA18595511799032F85.ashx - Exclusively vegan nutrition for infants and young children (under 2 years of age) is not recommended as it may be very difficult to meet the child's nutritional needs during the first years of life with this diet. Académie Royale de Médecine de Belgique (Royal Academy of Medicine of Belgium) https://updlf-asbl.be/assets/uploads/ARMB_-_Veganisme_AVIS_COMPLET.pdf - The committee considers that the vegan diet is inappropriate and therefore not recommended for unborn children, children and adolescents, as well as pregnant and lactating women. - Compulsory supplementation, metabolic imbalances and the obligation of medical follow-up, including blood sampling, are therefore not eligible. Spanish Paediatric Association https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31866234 - A vegetarian or a vegan diet, as in any other kind of diet, needs to be carefully designed. After reviewing current evidence, even though following a vegetarian diet at any age does not necessarily mean it is unsafe, it is advisable for infant and young children to follow an omnivorous diet or, at least, an ovo-lacto-vegetarian diet. Argentinian Hospital Nacional de Pediatría SAMIC https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31339288 - Vitamin B12 deficiency is one of the most serious complications of vegetarianism and its variants. Infants born to vegan mothers are at greater risk of serious deficiency, being more vulnerable to their effects. B12 deficiency is not usually suspected by the pediatrician in healthy infants with neurological symptoms The Dutch national nutritional institute, Stichting Voedingscentrum Nederland https://www.voedingscentrum.nl/Assets/Uploads/voedingscentrum/Documents/Ontwerp_Vegetarisch%20en%20veganistisch%20eten_defLR_2018.pdf - A vegan diet can be adequate but increases the risk for various deficiencies. The report then describes the various risks of deficiencies and how they can be circumvented. - A vegan diet for children can be adequate but is associated with an increased risk of: being smaller and lighter than their peers, worse psycho-motor development and reduced bone density. Help from a professional is advisable. - The literature on the effects of a vegan diet on pregnant women is limited, but the available research indicates that a healthy pregnancy in combination with a vegan diet is possible, under the precondition that the women pay special attention to maintaining a balanced diet.

The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics was founded by Seventh-day Adventists, which are an evangelistic vegan religion that owns meat replacement companies. Every author of their position paper is a career vegan, one of them is selling diet books that are cited in the paper. One author and one reviewer are Adventists who work for universities that publicly state to have a religious agenda. Another author went vegan for ethical reasons. They explicitly report "no potential conflict of interest". Their claims about infants and athletes are based on complete speculation (they cite no study following vegan infants from birth to childhood) and they don't even mention potentially problematic nutrients like Vitamin K or Carnitine.

Here is the full text, I originally planned to paste sections of it that I felt applicable to rebuke you in multiple comments as lemmy does have a comment character limit and won't let me paste the entire text

I beleive I may have also unkowingly cut out relevant parts of the text

I belive you misinterpreted the way I originally posted it as "gish gallop"

I beleive it is a good compilation of sources

I know the original text may also be a bit negative towards vegans but I still beleive the scientific sources contained within it and its explanations of those sources are valuable excluding the negativity and I removed the negativity in my comments containing sections of the text, I did not write the text compiling the sources but I use it as it is a good compilation of sources

https://pst.innomi.net/paste/2zwcqyt6ppmdgfeszgjqmpmq

that is not the position of the academy and hasn't been for years