Terry Pratchett's Boot Theory
Based on the excerpt from this Discworld book, what other items do you use regularly that would fit in this theory? (Boots and shoes are fair game!)
Text transcript for people who want it:
[The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.
Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.
But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
This was Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.]
Bonus: suggest ways you can repair/restore your item/other people's items.
It's expensive to be poor
It really is. I have a few friends who are not doing very well, and it amazes me the shit they have to pay for.
This whole thread reminded me of this old viral tweet
This and Chocolate Rain, I guess that's two times he's made an impression on my life now
Wait! This is the same guy?
Yup!
I've been paying and paying and paying for that damn root canal.
That one dental problem has cost me way more money than i made at that job in total.
I see Sir PTerry, I upvote.
And hey, just sliding this totally smoothly into the conversation, did you all know we have [email protected] (Lemmy / Kbin)
*sidles out awkwardly*
Super neat!! Thanks for the link. :) If anyone likes the style of writing, go look at the Discworld community. These books are great.
I'm hoping this quote can drive some critical thinking about sustainability, and maybe some discussion about how to better what people CAN afford/already have.
My problem is I don't know what products are expensive because they are good, and what products are a scam. No idea how to even search to find out either.
Oh easy, I just check for a thread on reddit where two guys are at each other's throats arguing the merits of different crescent wrenches
...oh, wait.
Find people on the internet who seem similar to you and see what they did and what the result was, see what the best result was and do that. Takes a long time, and may or may not be worth it, but for expensive purchases it may be.
It depends on the category of the item you are planning to buy, there are lots of gear reviews blogs/sites for outdoor gear as well as tech. As for clothing, I YouTube the brand for review videos... A bit more time consuming than just impulse buying on the spot but this way, you can make an educated guess on the quality of what you are planning to spend your hard earned money on.
Car repair. Towing and fixing a car with a ruined engine is ten times as much as doing regular maintenance. And it's not just the dollar cost of oil changes and belts: When you are better off, you have the free time to run that errand to do those things.
Dental care, for almost the exact same reasons.
General healthcare has all of those factors PLUS if your general health goes bad you may not be able to work so now fixing it is expensive and you have no income.
Car
repair.Sorry, I usually don't make these shallow comments. But cars are just another way to accumulate money for the rich few. Transportation is the boot, and we can't afford good public transit and international railways.
Sorry, I don't think I fully follow. Would you care to explain how cars are a way to accumulate money for the rich?
Boots, shoes, clothes, technology, cars, houses, furniture.
Everything.
@H3L1X reminds me of one rule from woodworkers/DIYers – buy a cheap set of tools, when one of the tools breaks, replace that one tool with a more expensive one (upgrading based on use)
That is true, I do quite like that rule.
This works for all sorts of things, especially automotive tools, but there's one exception that I live by.
Don't cheap out on the things that come between you and the ground.
Your shoes, your socks, your tires, your bed, the chair you spend twelve hours a day in. Those are worth some investment. It pays dividends.
Food.
If you don't have much money then it can be a lot harder to eat healthily, due to cost of fresh ingredients and time to cook, which is time you may not have.
This can lead to eating a lot of unhealthy and processed food, which then causes knock-on costs later with poor health, illness, and medical bills that aomeone with the money to eat healthily might have been able to avoid.
There's a reason why fast food companies have more shops per capita in lower socio-economic areas. For a lot of families asking them to "eat better" is like telling them "stop being poor".
I think the "time to cook" is the kicker here. Healthy food is really much cheaper, but you have to buy ingredients to cook with, not ready-to-eat or close to.
Things like dried lentils, beans, rice, etc are way cheaper than even inexpensive canned. In-season produce or frozen counterparts, too.
I think so many people underestimate the value of time.
Renting a house/appartment vs. owning is a pretty big one, same with renting vs owning most things.
Nice tools vs cheap tools. It really does seem to be everything, from clothes, to tools, to food and healthcare.
GNU STP.
add insult to injury, banks not approving loans for homebuying even when the mortgage payment would be less than the current rent …
Home ownership bigtime. Yeah I have to do way more work to keep my house in good shape but every time I do it literally adds value to the place.
But I know Im damn lucky to own my own place. Not an option for many around the world.
Yeah, the maintenance can be a pain, but it does add value, and it is pretty satisfying to improve things.
GNU STP.
Renting -
Buying a house is like having a bank account you can't access until you want to move. Renting a house is just paying into someone else's bank, and you end up unable to save for your own.
The rich don't get rich by saving more or spending less: though it is an advantage when they choose to use it.
The rich get rich by exploiting the labor (or income from labor) of those less fortunate than them.
On the plus side, short notice and a little risk and you can just move. New job? Bad neighbour? New family? Other changes in needs?
Trying to sell property can be a massive pain and take ages in many places.
He didn't predict how bad it would get. Corporations have been at war against the concept of ownership for the poor and middle class. Everything is a subscription now so you can't even own anything and housing is too expensive to buy, you can only rent.
"you will own nothing and be happy about it" a quote from the 'great reset'... A literal agenda from the international monetary fund (IMF). We have to resist that notion in everywhere or we risk accelerating our fall into the dystopian future that these greedy fucks are trying to set course to...
My mother always says: we are not so rich to afford cheap stuff.
For exactly this reason
I like this even better than mine.
It's Terry, so it's good. But as someone who buys expensive leather shoes due to fucked up feet and good shoes increasing the time until the hurt, it absolutely tracks. I've been using my 250€ leather shoes for three years now and they're still OK. 75€ standard sneakers I used before had holes in the soles within a year.
I always thought that laundry was the best example of this.
Poor people go to the laundrette, which is expensive over time and time-consuming.
Less poor people buy cheap washing machines which are expensive to run and break sooner.
Rich people buy highly efficient washing machines which are cheaper to run and last for years.
And on top of that poor people buy cheaper clothes, which wear out sooner (as with the boots example) and dry their clothes indoors on hangers which, again, takes longer and also creates damp, unpleasant living conditions!
EDIT: Typos.
I agree with your point, but a lot of the more expensive washing machines are not that reliable, and expensive to fix. I had to spend $200 on a refurbished circuit board. They had a whole business dedicated to repairing those boards. Usually cheap ones have simple parts that (used to be) cheap.
House. If you can afford to buy one, it is much cheaper than to pay rent over decades.
Training. If you can afford to not earn money for a few years, training in a valuable skill will earn you much money.
More training. Sometimes you just need to stop earning money for a year.
Tools. It may be hard to choose good tools, some are overpriced for no good reason, but tools you work with instead of working around is a productivity booster.
BTW, this theory has a name in socio-economics, it is called the "poverty trap" (aka "it is expensive to be poor") it is not as much how the rich get richer (there are a lot of more salient mechanisms there) but more about how the poor remain poor.
Oh wow did not expect to find a citation to a book I finished reading yesterday.
Which one is it ?
Not the original commenter, but it's Men At Arms and it's one of my faves.
Thank you !
Men at Arms
@sunshine It's very true. There are ways to break the cycle but being poor often means also not having the time to fix or pick up stuff. I have been living of a low income for years now. I think like 80% percent of the stuff I own has been free or second hand.
Clothes dryer, washing machine, dishwasher, oven, microwave, furniture, clothes etc. etc. Sometimes it's tedious and frustrating.
But I also didn't have to work full time or two jobs just to buy all that crap new.
It means I get to spend money on good shoes for me and the kids. Good mattresses. New clothes for the kids because social pressure dictates it. Food.
The rest I build, repair, trade etc. etc. If this capitalist society collapses I'm fucked, off course.
One of the interesting things about the second -hand market is that really good quality items survive two or three owners even, so someone who is knowledgable about quality items or who takes the time to research before getting things can actually be getting significantly better stuff than someone who is buying new.
That being said, being poor makes it hard to have the time or have the opportunity to learn about what is good vs what is bad quality. And people can get really ripped off by vendors who are selling bad quality but making it seems like good quality.
@Otakat Yes. Sometimes it's very specific. I burned money on items that where damaged beyond repair but looked ok on first glance, or just from a different production run that had terrible quality control.
At the moment, mostly due to inflation, people with better income have discovered the second hand market. Which leads to increased prices at thrift stores and online marketplaces. Sometimes the prices in thrift stores are higher for cheap made in china stuff then getting it new in "dollar shop" like places. It's bizarre.
@sunshine
Being poor is expensive.
@huskypenguin I agree. I think I'm rich in time. That's why I don't think I'm poor. It could al be an illusion. Like most people I'm just one missed paycheck away from serious debt and maybe two from losing the house due to missed rent.
@sunshine
Planned obsolescence is another problem to add to this. I've had coffee makers (thermal fuse won't reset), TVs (logic board and LED backlight), garbage disposals (internal seals), garage door openers (capacitor), and fridges (ice maker) all fail 1-2 months after the warrenty in the past 5 years.
Want to get a serviceable unit with readily available parts? Well you can pay 10x the cost.
Cloths for towels. Paper towels are convenient, but we've got 15 reusable ones that we can just throw in the wash afterwards.
I prefer paper towels over cloth towels. We use both in our house. I can see the savings of using cloth towels but I just so do love paper towels.
We use both. Cloth for the lightht and easy, paper for the gunk and grease.
They definitely have their place, and in some ways are better than cloth towels. I'm not ready to go completely cloth, but maybe some day
In a somewhat paradoxical fashion, it would be cheaper to buy and own many things over an extended period of time versus renting them. However, pooling resources to buy just one of something and have it be accessible to a community seems like the more ideal sustainable approach.. But we also see perversions of the 'sharing' model with things like ride-sharing and AirBnB. Just something some of the comments (i.e. on laundry and tools) made me think about.
One solution to that would be to buy stuff on credit, so you cut the financial pooling into parts, but that has it's own issues.
worse when a company puts out a durable product at a decent price, watches it become popular, then issues an “update” with crap durability and higher price
I still have those classic REI pants from over 20 years ago. They've been incredibly dependable in normal usage. When they finally required some maintenance tailoring recently, the tailor remarked on the excellent construction and fabric, saying "you can keep these for a long long time." "I have," said I, "and I will."
Or vulture capitalists buying or taking over a brand with a good reputation for quality and durability and trashing them for a couple of years of profit. Always check for this when trying to BIFL.
The mushy flipflops!! I can't believe I forgot about those things. I had a pair as a gift when I graduated and they lasted me years. Once they died I wanted a new pair. Coughed up for the same brand and they.....leave weird black rubber bits on everything.
adjacent – we all have the same 24 hours
There's a simpler saying: "you cannot afford to buy cheap things".
It's an effective way to climb out of poverty of you're making ends meat, so long as you're in a position where your things won't be stolen. Save up to buy quality, or buy used quality things that last and can be repaired. It's a wise investment, cheap goods are part of the poverty trap.
I mostly wear a single pair of $350 boots. The cost per mile makes them the cheapest footwear I can buy. I've worn them daily for 2 years, they have maybe one more year before they need a resole. Boots are only a single example. It's the same for everything from clothing to cars to houses to electronics.
How did you get enough money to get those things in the first place though? If you look at all those things, you cannot simply go without them for the months it would take to save up under ideal circumstances, and if you're impoverished, you can't really get a loan to get them either.
Here's my example: Nice Hoka shoes are typically 100$+, but Sketcher's Work Sneakers are ~40$. The Hokas would last a lot longer and be more ergonomic, but that price is way out of my reach. The Sketchers get disintegrated by a year of use.
What I do is add arch supports and gel shoe inserts (9$ iirc) into the Sketchers, and replace those when they wear. It adds about two years of life to the shoes! :)
Funnily enough as I was just writing my other comment there was a knock at the door....my new Skechers have arrived lol! Last ones, as you predicted, started to disintegrate. Although the ones previous to those lasted for years, so I'd been kind of hoping I just got a bad pair. Your comment bodes, and now I'm off to look for those inserts so thanks for the tip.
If you work on your feet/have to stand on concrete/tile, definitely look at "Heel That Pain" brand heel seats. Full price is way too much (44$ for two boxes), so look for sales.
There's a gel one and a more firm one. The gel one helped with sciatic pain, and still works ~3 pairs of shoes later.
(I've also layered the heel seats over top of the typical Dr. Scholl's work gel inserts. Works great for me but my partner hates the feel. YMMV.)
How long do the hoka's last? I usually get $20 shoes that last a year before the soles wear though, so they'd need to last at least five years to break even. How long have you found them to last?
The explosion of dollar stores in the U.S. is like a boot that keeps pushing stomping on poor people to ensure they have to way out and this theory perfectly describes the situation.
The way forward is not to replace dollar stores with Targets, it's to move beyond capitalism and it's base of exploitation and move toward a base of cooperation.
Some ideas:
In 2021 I rented a car and did Uber for about a year. At $316 a week, that car was costing me 1200 a month!
Eventually I lost the car as I couldnt afford to pay.
Now I’ve got a job, been building my credit, gonna buy a car instead. That car will be about $300/mo. And all because I’ve got the credit and cash to buy instead of rent.
Is public transportation not a thing where you live?
If they are American it's not pretty common in many places from what I've learned
This car will also be for Uber.
Can you imagine you order an Uber and the driver rolls up like "hey man, c'mon, I got you the day pass but the bus leaves in like 2 minutes"
The system is set up against the poor. Not only is long term quality something you usually cannot afford for your purchases as with the boot example, things that were normal goods are now commodities people must have a subscription for (or buy the quality version). All the late fees, overdraft fees, fixed rate parking tickets, anything is set up to fuck over the little guy and keep him poor and running in his hamster wheel.
Fixed rate fine based penalties for "crimes" really bother me. Not that I have a better solution, but that is inherently unfair.
the same concept is true for many other items - ultimately, it comes down to "you get what you pay for".
I had to get shoes last week, the ones I had previously had lasted 9 years and the rubber soles were beginning to crumble. they're now relegated to yard shoes & won't last another year. new shoes are 100% leather, with rubber soles, cost $90 & were on sale (normal price was $140). they'll last at least another 9 years without any issues.
most of the things I buy, I always look for sales but I never buy the cheap/cheaply made products. cheap stuff might last a year & it's just not worth it. expensive stuff is usually cheaper in the long term.
The trick, of course, is figuring out when this holds true versus when the expensive version is just relying on brand name to inflate the price.
The fun part is when you have a brand you trust, but it is bought out or sells out and reduces quality to maximize profits.
I would say it's not so much that they managed to, it's that they could afford to spend less money. You cannot afford good food, so you eat crappy food and get sick, so you have to go to the doctor. You cannot afford good insurance, so you have to spend a ludicrous amount to get good care that will fix the problem, but you cannot afford that, so instead of a one time charge, you now have the worse prescription that still costs a bit, and it doesn't even keep you healthy, it just keeps you moving forward, barely. Because of your condition, you now can't even work as well as you could, so you get paid even less, all the while your health is deteriorating because the medicine you can already barely afford isn't actually what you really need.
How the fuck do you get out of that on your own?
Thats what the concept 'conscious spending' tries to address and set up protocols to get out of the negative feedback cycle of having to constantly buy cheap shit only to have to replace it and double your cost.
https://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/conscious-spending-basics/
The link above has much more details on this if y'all are interested.
Yeah, no.. that's a pass from me.
A key component of Vimes' theory is that he buys cheap boots because he can't afford the expensive ones. Conscientious spending assumes the person has a choice; it isn't an option for Vimes, or for many people.
There are many things that it makes sense to simply buy the cheap version of: things that'll be used infrequently, or which usefullness is unknown. Gadgets which a friend loves and recommends, but which end up being simply unused.
I haven't read the book you recommend; maybe it says all this. I do think, though, that for all the evils of cheap consumer goods, they've put much in the hands of people who would not otherwise be able to afford it.
Boots, same as Vines. I used to buy boots every year for 200pln and they gave out mid season. Bought a pair for 700pln and it lasted 6 years. Also I have a 15 year old backpack which I wore almost daily.
Tyres
In a subtle way. Go cheap and you may total your car in ugly weather. Go reliable and you may stop in time.
Of course you don't have to feature in c/idiotsInCars
In the UK you have to pay car tax which basically is a tax on vehicles which obstensively covers road maintenance.
If you pay monthly then you have to pay 12 units for one year.
However if you can afford to pay one lot all in one go then you only have to pay the equivalent of 10 units. Essentially you get two months for free.
Now presumably this is because it is easier to account for your budget if you get it all in one job lot right at the beginning of the year. So it is worth them giving you a economic incentive to do that. But loads of people cannot afford that so they end up paying more money.
Most people keep a car for what five ir six years? In that time the effectively pay an entire extra years worth of road tax if they pay monthly rather than yearly.
Boo.
I don't live in the UK, would you be willing to give an example of what the yearly lump sum is vs the monthly fee? I'm genuinely curious!
It depends on vehicle emissions.
Bagels which put out more carbon dioxide get taxed more heavily. This has always been the case but it's how it's always been worked out as long as I've been driving. I'm not sure how it worked historically.
My car is a diesel. So it's output is worse (greater) than a petrol car.
My yearly tax is, paying monthly, £180 per year. My yearly tax is, paying yearly, £170 per year.
Not much for my car, but then again it's a boring ass people carrier with suspect electronics, because I'm 180,000 years old.
It's a true point, but am I the only one who finds the writing style genuinely cringe? It's all I can think everytime I see this quoted.
Fair opinion, it can be a little rough to follow along if you're not in the mood for comedy. Rating things as cringe is so dead tho.
Well pick your adjective then. Cheesy, campy, etc